goc

You don't have to have "lived through" a different era to be able to watch the footage. All you have to do is watch the matches. I can list a bunch of guys from earlier eras who I think are more worthy AND point to matches that I think they have that are better than anything Kane has to match. Dig into some Dick Murdoch, Jerry Blackwell, Ivan Koloff, Sgt. Slaughter, etc footage and you might see why people on this board don't like the idea of putting in more modern candidates just because "well there aren't many of them in the HOF" when there are a lot of better candidates from earlier eras that aren't getting anywhere near the same kind of push towards the Hall that a guy like Edge gets from Meltzer himself.

I have no issue with your opinion that Kane is a HOFer. I like Kane but I can't say I see him as a WON HOFer just due to how many other guys are not in that I think are better. If you think there is a case to be made off for him though I'd like to see you compare him to a similar modern candidate who is already in.

El Dandy, Magico y Superastro vs. Gran Cochise, Javier Cruz y Javier Rocca (EMLL 11/11/87) Yea, I still didn't really care for this match. I liked it better than the first time I saw it, but there are just so many things in this match that I do NOT want out of my lucha watching. Like handshakes, sportsmanship, helping your opponent up while he's outside the ring. Gross. I want asshole rudos suckering you into a handshake and then punching you in the mouth. Plus, Magico is fucking terrible and does more ugly botches in this match than anyone else I remember on the lucha set. El Dandy does have one of the craziest looking dives at the end of the 3rd fall where he's almost totally vertical on a suicide dive but he needed to do something to make up for him and Javier Cruz doing mirror spots where they both miss a crossbody and then go for a dropkick at the same time and get back up into a face off. I thought I was watching a Jerry Lynn match and was waiting for a "Esta es lucha!" chant. Super Astro & Gran Cochise were the MVPs here, doing nothing that annoyed me and actively doing good stuff like Cochise playing possum on Astro and suckering him into missing a dive at him out of the corner leading to Cochise getting a submission on Astro to end the first fall. Astro's dives and moves off the top rope are in their own category for how graceful he makes everything look.

TNAMecca vs. Reality - Feud of the Year

My take is tag teams are risk, however if you draft Afa I can't imagine somebody is going to take Sika from you in the next round. Depends on if you have someone I want and think I can trade you Sika for him

How do we want to do tag teams? If you have plans to make your top draw a tag team then it would put you at a disadvantage to use 2 draft picks for your top act instead of 1. But also the thing to keep in mind is if the start date is 1/1/83 a lot of the big name teams people would want to maybe put in that position aren't together yet. At that point neither the RNR Express, The Road Warriors or the Condrey/Eaton version of the MX exists yet.

I am just going to go ahead and recommend that everyone listen to the WOL today in 30 minutes. No doubt Bryan is going to get ALL KINDS of crazy TNA callers. http://sportsbyline.com/

They likely aren't paying ROH the same that they were paying TNA, because ROH isn't relying on it. This gets ROH more exposure and as far as I know, they aren't producing new content for this so it's not really any added production cost for them. So they wouldn't need the kind of money they are giving TNA while certainly being able to draw the same ratings if not better. If it turns out that this is going to be an entirely different show than what gets shown on Sinclair stations then I could be wrong about it being a cheaper option.

Swap the first two words and erase the question mark.

As of right now, they are going to be the lead in to TNA. Unless they plan to drop iMPACT even earlier than the September date that went around.

I thought this was newsworthy enough for it's own thread, especially with all the talk going on about TNA being cancelled in September. http://i.imgur.com/XAbdzI2.jpg http://i.imgur.com/qVygoF2.jpg

I have no problem with them doing what you are saying. I simply disagree that they would eventually get into the position you think they would. Right now the Divas division loses viewers based on the segment breakdowns I've seen. If they got the division to a point where they were actually gaining viewers in their segments then I would say that it would be possible to do the B-PPV experiment. I just don't really think there is any evidence they'll eventually get there.

Wow. I thought that was a photoshop when I first saw the picture of the tweet. That's way beyond anything I expected and seems to go against the "DA doesn't want wrestling because advertisers don't want to buy ads during it" aspect of the story.

Holy shit. Maybe we could just wait and see if they can actually not lose a ton of viewers in their segments before we immediately proclaim that they can and should be put into main events on PPVs.

I never said they shouldn't do more with them or that they shouldn't give them more time. Nor did I say that they are already being booked well so hey why is everyone complying? But what does equality in wrestling mean? That they should get like a 1/3rd-1/2 of TV time? Half the PPV main events? Is there ANY evidence beyond maybe Mildred Burke that a female wrestler can actually draw at a main event level in the U.S.? I realize that Shimmer is small scale but ROH, PWG & CHIKARA all started out at smaller scales than they are now and grew. Shimmer hasn't. That has to say SOMETHING about how much interest there is in serious women's wrestling. They were able to draw the highest rated segments on iMPACT when they featured the Knockouts Division well but it still didn't get TNA fans to buy PPVs. Is Ronday Rousey really bringing in a giant new audience of female viewers for the UFC or is she mostly appealing to men who already watch UFC and like watching her because she's a dominant champion (a formula that usually draws in the UFC) I just don't see any evidence that they can honestly become a main event draw but that doesn't mean they can't be a PART of drawing interest to the show. Because right now they probably aren't influencing a whole lot of people to watch Raw solely to see their segments. Because they can bring in anyone they want to switch out of El Torito's dance partner(s) for a month or two.

Oh, also if they didn't have a great worker on their roster doing absolutely nothing I would have never brought up the minis as a comparison at all. But they do, El Torito is there and he's a great worker and they aren't just using him badly and giving him shitty 4-6 minute matches they aren't doing ANYTHING with him. Is it really insane to think he might be able to sell some merchandise if you give him some time on a 3 hour show that needs variety because it overexposes the hell out of Seth Rollins & The Authority?

Any good 80s-90s lucha channels?

Holyshit. Really ? (It sounds like something Vince Russo would say, no offense, but still) I don't see it. Nowhere have I said "the Divas suck and shouldn't even be on TV" I have said repeatedly that I think they should use them better and give them more time. If I had said "if they aren't doing bra and panties matches in a mud pit then they shouldn't be on TV" I guess I might see what you're saying.

Why is it fair to label people as sexist who have pretty much said "They should feature the women better and give them more time but I don't think they can be main event and I'm not sure they would draw a bigger female audience?" Is that really such a terrible opinion to have? Is it really more discriminatory than completely dismissing the idea of giving time to minis? Is El Torito not a great worker? Did he not carry someone who is universally maligned to a series of matches that almost everyone liked and praised?

El Dandy's top rope senton. I'm not as in love with Dandy as others but damn that is a killer looking move.

Fit Finlay vs. Danny Boy Collins (Reslo 1988) Finlay has Princess Paula with him here and I like their act from the few other matches I've seen her with him. Finlay does some fish hooking while he has Collins in an armbar and keeps positioning himself away from where the ref can see it. Finlay kind of dominates this match hitting some nice looking moves on Collins including a really nasty looking kneelift. He backs off as Collins fires up but cheapshots him after feigning a handshake. Finlay blocks a sunset flip with a punch that gets treated like a huge thing including a replay. Then Finlay tries to reverse a whip into the corner by jumping off the second turnbuckle but eats a dropkick as he spins back the other way. The crowd goes nuts as Collins takes over for a bit but Finlay breaks the momentum by going over to Princess Paula in the corner. Finlay misses a double kneedrop off the second rope and then gets caught by a top rope crossbody by Collins for a nearfall that the crowd eats up. Collins won't quit as he keeps getting up and kicks out of a gutwrench suplex. Collins catches Finlay in a powerslam for another nearfall but then goes right back to taking a beating. This is kind of the classic "scrappy underdog is over matched but won't give up" formula. The crowd has a lot of kids and they are really into it every time Collins starts to get some offense. Finlay is on at least kneelift numbert 10 here. They repeat the spot with Finlay jumping off the second turnbuckle after being whipped into the corner but this time he stops short and Collins crashes and burns on his dropkick attempt. Finlay takes off the turnbuckle and smashes Collins' head into it but then Collins blocks the 2nd attempt and Finlay ends up getting a taste of his own medicine. The ref is hilariously exasperated at all of this. Finlay moves as Collins charges at him in the corner and Collins smashes his shoulder which allows Finlay to quickly follow up with an armbar and Collins quickly submits. Finlay had some really good looking offense and his timing is great. He had some great theatrical selling after Collins blocked the 2nd attempt to smash his head into the exposed turnbuckle. But man this went way too long for what seemed to essentially be an extended squash. This was 13 minutes long and Finlay also did way too many of those jumping kneelifts even if it is his best looking move.

El Torito needs work.

I would rather do some kind of sharing of responsibilities in my territory than doing it all solo anyway.

El Dandy, Talisman y Guerrero Negro vs. Los Javieres (EMLL 3/21/87) I have had more time off lately than I would have liked so I've been trying to go through some of my unwatched comps. This match was really good, I'm not really sure how it didn't end up making the lucha set. It's got your standard trios tropes like the heels holding the ring and dominating for the first fall They put a cool little twist in it though where all three of the babyfaces climb different turnbuckles and jump into the ring at one time as the heels hold the center. The heels all eat dropkicks but roll outside and regroup and end up retaking their advantage and winning the first fall with a triple submission on one of the Javiers (seriously, you expect me to tell them apart when they all have the same first name and the same outfit?) The big story of this match is Guerrero Negro and uhh I think Javier Valaquez . Guerrero Negro is doing a lot of gnawing on his forehead. And Javier is doing a lot of bleeding. Javier's white pants are covered in blood. Everyone else is definitely in the background here. They do this funny sequence where EVERYONE misses some kind of senton or splash as they all trade attempts and rolling away. This is followed up by a Talisman dive that is anything but graceful but that just makes it feel more dangerous. We are left with Guerrero Negro and Valaquez in the ring and Guerrero Negro reverses a rana and locks on a boston crab for the win. I think that's two straight falls for the heels. Afterwards we get some celebrating by the heels followed by what I believe is the ring announcer informing us that Valaquez has challenged Guerrero Negro to a hair match. I could be wrong on that however. This was a lot of fun and I could have seen this finishing somewhere in the 65-75 range on my ballot if it'd been on the set. El Dandy, Talisman y Guerrero Negro vs. Los Javieres (EMLL 1987) Everyone still has their hair in this match so either I was wrong about what was going on at the end of the last match, this match actually takes place before the other one, or this is like a lot later in 1987. Perhaps someone else knows and can clear up the confusion. This starts out totally different than the other match with a ton of action and the babyfaces winning the first fall in about 3 minutes. This was a really fast and fun first fall. The Javieres have changed from their white pants to red so I am going to predict no blood in this match In between falls we have a commercial for a brand new 1987 Dodge Colt selling for $5887. Old car commercials really make you appreciate the joys of rampant inflation and stagnant wages. The second fall starts off hot and heavy with Talisman and uhh Javier trading reversals which ends with Talisman bouncing on the ropes to come down on Javier in the corner and Javier pushing his feet up and sending Talisman over the ropes and into the lap of an old woman in the front row. We get some more babyface dominance as Guerrero Negro & Dandy both fail to turn the tide until Talisman comes back in. He complains about being sent over the top rope and wants a handshake but attacks as Rocca looks to his corner for guidance. I love Talisman. At this point the heels take over the ring and we get some double and triple team moves. Rocca and Cruz eat pins and then El Dandy hits a fucking monster top rope senton on Valaquez and all 3 babyfaces eat pins to send this into the 3rd fall. Dandy continues his attack on Valaquez in between falls and the refs do a lot of hair pulling on him and Guerrero Negro to break that up. After a commercial we come back to the 3rd fall having started and the heels holding the ring with Rocca taking a beating with Valaquez and Cruz being kept outside. This settles back down and we get back to Guerrero Negro vs. Valaquez. We get a cool spot where Rocca leapfrogs Dandy and then dives out onto Talisman followed by Dandy diving onto Cruz to clear everyone away from the Guerrero Negro/Valaquez battle. And this in a disappointing fashion as Guerrero Negro fouls Valaquez and tries to cover him like nothing happened but the refs are both all over it and call for the DQ. This was fun but the other matchup between these two trios was definitely better. Next match on the disc is a match I didn't care for on the 80s set but everyone else did so I will give it another chance and rewatch it. But I don't feel all that excited about it so I'm going to go watch something completely different first.