Loss
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Yeah, I don't really blame Shawn for the reaction he was getting by year's end. I think Vince fawning and bad booking caused that more than his own performance for the most part, although Shawn probably could have done some things differently. -
You'd obviously think so because you're a lucha superfan. For me, it boils down to "who would you rather watch." I'd rather listen to a decent metal band than the greatest reggae band of all time. See, for me, that opens a can of worms. I'd rather watch Kensuke Sasaki try hard and be carried than watch most Shawn Michaels matches. But no way would I put Sasaki above Shawn. Vader's rep for me is mostly based on his WCW matches from 1992-1995. For WCW (specifically after the Turner buyout), there is no one I would rank higher for having good matches in that company. The international stuff only enhances his case. Eddy also had better matches in the U.S. than he did Japan or Mexico (with a couple of very notable exceptions). Having recently watched both Shawn's 1996 and Rude's 1992, I'd give the edge to Rude's '92. Shawn had the match with Mankind that was outstanding, and everything else was very good at best. I still thought he had a good year, as Dylan said. Rude had two matches at least as good as Mind Games (Steamboat and Chono), plus War Games and a better list of free TV matches too. Shawn was absolutely better than the sum of his parts, and I think the overall point is correct. It's not meant as a knock on Shawn. It's more that I think others are better.
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Possibly. But he wouldn't make my top 50 for sure, and he probably wouldn't make my top 75. I made a list of wrestlers that just came to mind. There may be others, but these I know for sure I'd have higher than Shawn. 67 wrestlers listed below that would be locks. If there was someone I had to give any thought to beyond just "definitely yes", I didn't list them. Aja Kong Akira Hokuto Akira Taue Arn Anderson Atlantis Barry Windham Blue Panther Bobby Eaton Brian Pillman Bull Nakano Chigusa Nagayo Cien Caras Daisuke Ikeda Dan Kroffat Devil Masami Dick Togo Dynamite Kansai El Dandy El Hijo del Santo El Satanico Genichiro Tenryu Gran Hamada Great Sasuke Hayabusa Hiroshi Hase Jerry Lawler Jumbo Tsuruta Jushin Liger Juventud Guerrera Kazuo Yamazaki Kenta Kobashi Kiyoshi Tamura La Parka Lioness Asuka Manami Toyota Masa Fuchi Mitsuharu Misawa MS-1 Negro Casas Pirata Morgan Psicosis Randy Savage Ric Flair Ricky Steamboat Riki Choshu Sakie Hasegawa Shinjiro Otani Shinya Hashimoto Stan Hansen Steve Austin Steve Williams Steven Regal Taka Michinoku Takako Inoue Tatsumi Fujinami Terry Funk Terry Gordy Toshiaki Kawada Toshiyo Yamada Tsuyoshi Kikuchi Tully Blanchard Vader Volk Han Yoji Anjo Yoshihiro Takayama Yuki Ishikawa Yumiko Hotta
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It seems like if they really wanted to re-establish the belt as something meaningful, they should have given these guys 30 minutes or longer and told them to shoot for a classic. The match doesn't feel as "big" as a tournament final should after the whole ECW thing. Aside from that, they had a very good match. Again, the camera work isn't that good, so some of it doesn't get captured. But they worked hard and kept the crowd. The bump Candido took off the suplex to the floor was pretty crazy looking. You can tell they're familiar with each other, because they have their sequences down really well. All of the fakeouts spots and surprise counters look great. I just wish this didn't feel so midcard.
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Not the easiest match to follow at first because of all of the crowd brawling, with the handheld camera not really catching it. You get the idea of what they're doing, throwing chairs and tables and fighting in the crowd, but you don't get to see much of it. Gilbert nails Smothers with a hammer from the timekeeper's table and starts finding stuff around the ringside area to choke him. Mark Curtis is the perfect guy to referee a match like this. I'm not sure how all of this weapon use flew in a tournament setting without a DQ. Once the match gets into the ring, it gets really good, and the brawling continues. Gilbert tries to suffocate Smothers with a garbage bag! Eddie has let himself go a little bit even from earlier in the year, and while he gives an inspired performance here, you can tell he's on a personal decline. It just shows in his face (when we get to see his face). I think this was an awesome match. What I could see of it I loved. It was probably tremendous live. Only about 10 minutes, but they crammed quite a bit of stuff into this.
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You'd have Shawn above Kazuo Yamazaki and Jun Akiyama comfortably? I struggle with that. I struggle even more with El Samurai, but I realize I like him more than most. I also didn't mention Otani, who blows Shawn out of the water. So does Hayabusa. In the Joshi world, there are probably at least a dozen people I can think of, and my viewing there is limited. Naoki Sano had a quiet, great career and I'd personally put him above Michaels, but he's a guy someone needs to really tighten up the case for, so it's easier to make.
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I think you'll like the Chono match from the G-1 Climax final just as much, if not more, when you get into 1992. I don't think there's anything beyond that at that level, but Rude was a consistent guy with quite a few good TV matches during '92. The syndie matches with Pillman and Dustin stand out the most in my mind, but there are others.
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Jumbo does, Lawler probably does, and Funk might. I'm not as high on Terry Funk as most people, mainly because the wobbly selling feels too "acted" and that's such a huge part of his act. But still, it's possible he had more good matches than Rey. But I'm not certain of that.
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Owen and Shawn might be a good comparison. Owen is a more talented wrestler, while Shawn had more good matches, but maybe the mean average of the two is close.
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I don't disagree with any of that. I was just trying to make the point about Shawn without side draining it into a topic about why I consider a guy with a mullet who just got beat up in tag matches and only worked backwoods Southern promotions a first-tier guy. I would put Morton and Dundee ahead of Vader and Steamboat as well.
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Even limiting it to the US, I'm not sure how Shawn compares to Flair, Funk, Lawler, Steamboat, Savage or Vader. Some of those guys probably don't have the strong list of good matches that Shawn has, but some have one that blows his away, and the ones that don't were far more consistent. He may compare favorably to Bret. My opinion of Bret has dropped some after watching the 1992 - 1996 yearbooks. Bret is for the most part a guy who had good big show matches and dogged it a lot of the time on small shows. There are exceptions, like the Flair Ironman, the Steiners tag and a few others, but on a PPV, Bret would be motivated to pull a good match out of Papa Shango. On Coliseum Video, he's going through the motions with him. I think the best comparisons for Shawn are guys like Rude and Hennig. Generally good careers. Pockets of being great. Not quite at the elite level for many reasons. Shawn had a longer run than they did due to the layoff, but otherwise, I think that's a good comparison. Rude has isolated performances that I think were awesome too, but he has lots of periods where he isn't doing much. I see Shawn the same way. When you open it up internationally, how does Shawn even compare to people who no one talks about as a GOAT? I'm talking about people like Muto, El Samurai, Atlantis, Akiyama, Sano, Takayama, Yamazaki, Emilio Charles, etc. Even the second and third tier guys in the US raise an interesting question, for that matter. Think Ricky Morton, Bill Dundee and Bobby Eaton.
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I thought this was a very good match. I also think it said it all about the state of wrestling when people chanted boring every time they grabbed a hold, especially in a tournament for the NWA World title. This is a match between two guys who were coming along nicely and should have been major stars, but never quite met their potential. They're doing all the young athletic stuff, but they are also working a smart match that makes sense. I enjoyed this.
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This crowd is hot for Dundee's return in this six-man, which is Lawler/Dundee/Christopher vs Rich/Gilbert/Bowden. Good action from what we saw. Back at the studio, Tommy mentions that his mom told him he should have a conversation with Dundee and try to work things out. Finally, Dream Machine returns to talk to Dundee since he hadn't seen him in so long. He asks him to be his tag team partner and Dundee turns him down because he has promised to help Lawler. DM is not happy about that and slams Dundee into a ringpost. Christopher is out to quickly make a save, but gets ambushed by Rich, Gilbert and Bowden. Christopher gets hung by a noose at ringside! This appears to have been a rather complex setup.
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IRS accuses the Undertaker of cheating on his taxes, which is a pretty lazy way to set up a feud with these two. Bret, Bulldog, Backlund and Owen are the guests on the Heartbreak Hotel. Backlund tells Bret he has a constant tendency to relapse into barbarianism! Shawn is making fun of this whole main event program with his facial expressions and reactions to all of this, and I can't help but be amused by it.
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What Dylan said. I agree with your point Jerry, but I think most people here see it the same way. Shawn has a lot of matches I really like and I think he was really good and even great at times, but to me, he's not anywhere close to the top wrestlers in history.
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All three babyfaces wear red and yellow Sting face paint. Hogan pins Sullivan, then the heels do a number on Sting, Hogan and Mr. T. The Armstrongs try making a save. Ha. Stars and Stripes also try. Once again, ha. Policemen come in (Policemen?) to try to break the vicious, horrible sleeper Beefcake has on Hogan.
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Vader throws a few punches at Dustin and spits in his face. Dustin finally has enough and takes him down with a double leg takedown and beats the hell out of him. Vader finally cuts him off after they have some fun for a while, and Dustin takes a wild spin bump off of a clothesline. Dustin takes another crazy bump to the floor when Vader throws him out. There's this real feeling the whole time that Dustin just may pull this off. Hell of a match. Vader takes some bumps he has no business taking and Dustin gets in some great stuff himself. This is a match both guys can be proud of. Vader and Race try doing a number on Dustin after the match, but Duggan makes the save.
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We cut to a retirement ceremony for The Sandman. He has both eyes bandaged and is wearing a suit and sunglasses. Peaches doesn't know if she should slap Sandman or kiss him, and she decides to kiss him. Sandman is telling her how sad it is that he has lost her, and Woman comes out and takes exception. Peaches calls her a bitch and she canes her across the head! She's about to do the same to Dreamer and we get a swerve to reunite Sandman and Woman. I could see this coming a mile away, but I still thought this was a great angle, possibly my favorite in ECW that I can recall. Woman was fantastic. We cut to a pre-tape of Woman and Sandman gloating about how they fooled everyone, back when that sort of thing was still novel. Finally, we get a Dreamer promo showing the welps on his back from the cane shots. Not as good as the Sandman/Woman stuff, but it seemed sincere.