Loss

Wrestling is fake. What does it matter if he really pulls?

Is that what I said? And yes, if wrestling was like other narratives, heels would lose the blowoff match and never be seen again. It's not. It can't be. The heels have to be protected if they're going to mean anything.

I'm genuinely surprised that you would ask that question. But you asked if anyone had ever benefitted from working a program with Cena, and all of those guys have in different ways. WWE hasn't made any new tippety-top guys in a really long time, which is why you can't point to too many guys who were nothing and became something. But you can point to plenty of guys who have left programs with Cena in a better condition than they were going in. Edge, Punk and Umaga are the big ones, with everyone else managing to have good runs on top. The reason I listed Jericho was because he had a pretty lackluster last two years or so, went out on top with two good matches and came back pushed as a top guy making big money. It's because the last memory people had of him was doing good things in the main event.

Aside from Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, HHH, Edge, Umaga, Shawn Michaels, Rob Van Dam, Batista, Wade Barrett, The Miz and CM Punk all benefitting from doing programs with Cena, you mean? I've only been half-ass watching during most of his run, and even I know that. "Who hasn't?" would produce a shorter list.

The All Japan matches being considered. What are the best sources for these? Also, are all of these dates right? And can any of them be cut? Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (01/17/97) Jun Akiyama vs Akira Taue (01/20/97) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (01/20/97) Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama (03/30/97) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (03/30/97) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (04/19/97) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (04/19/97) Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (04/19/97) Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue & Takao Omori vs Kenta Kobashi, Johnny Ace & The Patriot (05/18/97) Kenta Kobashi & Johnny Ace vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (05/27/97) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jun Akiyama (05/27/97) Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Kentaro Shiga vs Steve Williams, Richard Slinger & The Lacrosse (05/31/97) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (06/06/97) Steve Williams & Gary Albright vs Kenta Kobashi & Johnny Ace (07/25/97) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (07/25/97) Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Steve Williams & Gary Albright (08/26/97) Kenta Kobashi vs Hiroshi Hase (08/26/97) Kenta Kobashi & Kentaro Shiga vs Hayabusa & Jinsei Shinzaki (09/06/97) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jun Akiyama (09/06/97) Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Hiroshi Hase vs Akira Taue, Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama (09/15/97) Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (10/11/97) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Steve Williams (10/11/97) Toshiaki Kawada vs Yoshihiro Takayama (10/21/97) Akira Taue vs Johnny Ace (10/21/97) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (10/21/97) Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Kenta Kobashi & Johnny Ace (11/15/97) Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Johnny Smith & Wolf Hawkfield (11/16/97) Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Hayabusa & Jinsei Shinzaki (11/23/97) Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Hayabusa & Jinsei Shinzaki (11/27/97) Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (11/28/97) Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (11/28/97) Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (12/05/97)

Does it really? In such a world, any triumph is necessarily going to be fleeting and tenuous. As it probably should be. Things are way more interesting when the heel gets the upper hand more often than the babyface. It makes the babyface moments of revenge stand out more and makes them satisfying. Fleeting for sure, but that's really the whole point.

So, in an effort to steer this back on topic, and make this thread about lucha libre instead of this thread being about this thread, I'll point out a few things that I wish I would have known when I started. It's so simple, yet caused me so much confusion. Each team in trios matches has a captain. Falls end when either the captain is pinned, or the other two members of the team are pinned. The legal man changes anytime the wrestlers in the ring hit the floor. Legal man enforcement is pretty lax in general, so you do see guys running in frequently without being tagged. You're not going to find face in peril in tag matches. The big rules that are enforced are no low blows and no unmasking your opponent. I knew about the legal man changing anytime a wrestler in the ring hit the floor thanks to WCW, but everything else was new.

Ok now I'm really confused about what we should be using as the source for each All Japan match. What I will do soon is just list every AJ match currently planned for the set and then ask for guidance on which source should be used. I know New Japan had presence on Samurai TV (and I think DirecTV) as well. Classics stops at '96. Are we going to run into the same clipping issues with New Japan TV in '97, where the matches are complete elsewhere? And John, I'm just going by how the discs are labeled and the matches that are there.

And besides, Ric Flair is not Stan Hansen. He's not living the gimmick and it's disappointing.

After going through the Satellite TV and Samurai TV, these appear to be the complete matches from the Carny and RWTL that weren't on NTV or the commercial releases. The Satellite TV was largely throwaway matches. Carny: 03/30/97 Hansen vs Ace (Samurai TV 05/16/97) Taue vs Albright (Samurai TV 05/23/97) 04/02/97 Misawa vs Williams (Samurai TV 05/09/97) None of those scream must-have to me. Tag League: 11/15/97 Kawada & Taue vs Kobashi & Ace (Samurai TV 01/16/98) 11/23/97 Kawada & Taue vs Hayabusa & Shinzaki (Samurai TV 01/23/98) COMPLETE 11/28/97* Misawa & Akiyama vs Kawada & Taue (Samurai TV 01/31/98) I couldn't figure out if this was the final or the 11/28 match. The lighting is pretty dark and I think it's the 11/28 but I can't confirm for sure. There are other matches that were rated highly in the WON that are complete on Samurai TV. I'm just not sure if they were complete on NTV or not. Satellite TV is mostly undercard stuff and big matches that were released commercially. Nothing to get too excited about.

Yes, which totally killed a lot of Flair's aura as this big city champ to me.

Why has this guy been so prominently featured in WWE for so long? Weird that not only has he been a TV fixture for so long, but also that he's NEVER discussed really at all. It's just ... odd. He's not particularly good or bad at what he does.

Thanks for the recommendations. Anyone have a clue where I can find AWF footage?

I forget who in SMW pointed out all the lies in Jericho's book, but it was an interesting read. EDIT: Here it is.

I don't even think that would. WWE would just throw Cena under the bus. As long as the first thought people have when they think of wrestling is that it's fake, which is what most people think even before they think it's sleazy, WWE will be able to get away with pretty much anything because the people involved aren't seen as real people.

This has to be the most egregious case of damning someone with faint praise I've ever seen Ha! But I actually didn't mean it that way. Just meant earnestly that Jericho is far, far better than Edge.

He's definitely a step above Edge. He's most likely several steps above Edge.

Larry Zbyszko was supposed to appear on NWA TV as the AWA champ in 1990. All the shows were hyping him to show up the following week and he never did. At the last minute, Jim Herd made the call that he didn't want another world champ on his TV show. The Steiners were hyped as returning to WCW in early '95, with videos airing on TV even, but they never did. Despite having fired him, WCW hyped Scott Hall returning for months in 2000 for some reason.

Talk about it here.

Talk about it here.

Talk about it here.

Talk about it here.

Talk about it here.

Talk about it here.

Talk about it here.