Loss

Because he's a McMahon family friend and he's dead. Because he's a McMahon family friend and he's dead.

I'll eventually move everything into this thread from anytime this topic has come up, but there has been new stuff from Dave at the F4W board that I wanted to post.

They do an excellent job of keeping Gibson on the apron to build excitement for him tagging in and having to pay for his sins. Lots of fun Southern staples in this and I love all the double-team spots from the Bodies. Really good.

Miss Texas is in SMW! Cornette has Rich, Gordy, Punisher and Gibson in with him as they hype matches at Thanksgiving Thunder. The last SMW TV show ever, I believe.

A brown-haired Jerry Jarrett responds to Bob Armstrong's allegations. This whole interview is an incredibly weird mixed metaphor of trees, acorns and highways. He reads from the third stanza of Rudyard Kipling poem he gave to Jeff as a boy, which has to be heard to be believed. The Jarretts are putting everything they own on the line against the Armstrongs. Jeff Jarrett does the best serious babyface promo of his life -- a legitimately really good one, believe it or not. This is the Jeff Jarrett we should have gotten on the national stage.

In the WWF, yes.

This is odd. This episode was taped in Nashville in front of an arena audience. Cory Maclin interviews Tracy Smothers at ringside. PG-13 come out to challenge him on saying he and DWB would not be giving PG-13 a title shot. JC ends up talking about his mom and throwing some type of liquid in his face, so I think they got the last laugh. Smothers is furious and wants JC in the ring and they have an impromptu match with GREAT, fast-paced action. However, the "Smoky Mountain Massacre", a huge masked guy, comes in to help Smothers out and starts splashing JC until Wolfie makes the save. Picture the masked guy as a seventh or eighth-rate Vader.

Bob Armstrong is so proud of his children. What a terrific father! He says he's going to make a lot of changes to the USWA now that he has control. He says he is immediately firing Cory Maclin, Lance Russell, Dave Brown and Randy Hales. He calls Jerry Jarrett the "cheatinist, lyinist promoter in professional wrestling" and accuses him of embezzling money from the USWA! He says as an honest, upstanding man, he plans to get a court order to seize Jerry Jarrett's house from him in order to make up for the money he has stolen. There aren't words.

Clip of a match from MSC, with Brad Armstrong playing heel at ringside for his brother. Brad Armstrong runs in and hits a Russian legsweep on Jarrett and takes a few other bumps. I will just say that even though I find Roadie in Memphis to be too over the top and trying too hard to heel, he is way more enjoyable for me here than anywhere else, really. We get more of this than we normally do arena clips, and the action here is a bit overbooked, but fun. BOB ARMSTRONG COMES OUT OF THE CROWD to help his son win a match, and it doesn't get much more awesome than that. Plus, what great parenting! Seeing this also makes me think Jeff Jarrett may have been more likely to get over as a babyface on a national stage, but his biggest problem was always that he pandered too much for heat, which was a turn off, so that would have hurt him either way. But he was really good in the ring.

Is there a name for Devil's face-first powerbomb because I love the move? This was good action that was lacking rhythm and felt haphazardly thrown together. Not something I'd really call a spotfest as much as I would a bunch of really well-executed wrestling moves without anything really happening. I am happy to see this on here, because it's a sobering look at Ozaki and Masami especially, and puts in perspective that the matches spotlighted on this yearbook are what they were doing at their best moments of the year, not what they were delivering night in and night out. I guess you could say that for anyone, really, but none of the disappointing matches with other top-flight workers on this yearbook have been disappointing in the same way this was disappointing. Even JIP, this was too long, and I think the best stuff could have been edited down into a decent match, but there's way, way too much filler in this 45 minute draw (of which we get around 27-28 minutes). As much as I love Ozaki and Devil, and like Fukuoka and Kaoru just fine, this wasn't a match that represented anyone all that well.

Between Kobashi and Joshi, Japanese wrestling had way too many rolling cradles in the 90s.

With regards to Sullivan, should he be thought about as a booker and not just as a performer? He was definitely one of the key people in WCW's ascension to the top in the mid 90s. He had terrible points as a booker too, but most bookers did.

Takayama did fine adapting, but Anjo is awesome here, to a point where I'd really like to see him outside the UWF-style environment sometime to see what he could do in a more traditional pro setting. But yeah, this is tons of fun. Lots of trash talk between Anjo and the NJ team, low blows, hate and good brawling. I think commentary would have added so much to the emotion of this. Chono/Anjo in a singles match has to happen, right? Yoji Anjo is probably one of my 10 favorite wrestlers after watching these yearbooks.

Maybe a separate topic worth discussing, but let's keep this thread more focused on the topic at hand if we can.

Philadelphia was obviously a big city for both the NWA and the WWF. Was the difference in demographics of the people who attended each shows the obvious kind, or is there anything that may surprise us now? Were there "regulars" who attended both NWA and WWF shows, where you remember seeing some of the same faces over and over? What is the first time you remember the heels getting cheered there? What was the difference in atmosphere between the two shows?

Well, if that didn't happen during Fujiwara's peak in the first UWF, or even during his comeback to NJ and then the second UWF when he was already past his prime but still excellent, I don't see how it would happen. I'm not sure what was on the 80's project, but I would guess most of his big matches were there. Really, basically, if the first UWF stuff didn't do it, well, don't hold your breath. Haven't watched the 80s Other Japan set yet. I have watched him pop up on yearbooks for 1992, 1993, 1995 and 1996.

I think it would be a great project to compile all of this into a narrative. Talk about the origins of tape trading in wrestling, star ratings, PWI, fan clubs, sheets, the Philly audience, ECW, the Internet, the impact all of this has had on promotions, etc. I think there's an interesting story to be told by weaving all of that together. Would be something cool for someone to take on. Just throwing it out there.

I'm willing to admit that I probably just haven't gotten to the right stuff yet, but while I have enjoyed some Fujiwara, I have yet to have a "Holy shit, this guy is incredible" moment watching him wrestle. Looking forward to the day that happens.

Playing catch up. Me and others like me. If you've never seen wrestling before and you don't know who any of the wrestlers are, what the storylines or angles are, or even the internal logic behind the whole thing, you tend to pay attention to the commentators. Vince and Jesse were extremely good at this, because like all good wrestling commentary they were the moral compass of what was going on. There is nothing remarkable about that. As you said, every announcer does it. Aside from Vince at times and Jim Ross at times, I don't think there's ever been a consistently good announcer in the entire history of the company, so that doesn't mean much to me. No, I don't think Lawler was as good. I agree that Vince and Jesse stands out. But they only look good if you ignore that wrestling existed in other places in the U.S. at the time. I agree with that. Jim Ross is at his best when wrestling is being presented the way I like it best. There are valid points I could make against him too -- he was at times a very annoying self-promoter, announcing all the shows by himself, getting his mug on camera before and after every break and plugging all of his personal appearances and his radio show every five minutes at his most offensive. I wouldn't say I "enjoy" it. But I appreciate it. I never looked it as being about football as much as I did being about providing personal background. In many cases, that just happened to be football-related. In Pillman's case especially, it was a compelling story that he also talked about alongside his history of throat operations, just like he talked about Luger's 3.78 GPA and turning down a Naval Academy offer along with his football background. By the way, I would seriously argue that the way Jim Ross called Lex Luger matches is the standard by which all other announcers should be judged on how they put over top stars. Sure. And when Watts came in, he made Jesse stop doing all the off-topic jokes and call the matches. To Jesse's credit, he adapted well during that time. If you liked him during that time, thank Bill Watts for staying on him to not be so Jesse Ventura-like. Then, SuperBrawl III came and he and Tony seem obviously elated that Ross and Watts are gone and are both in jovial moods, which has some entertainment value I will admit. I get that, and I actually do see where you're coming from. "This isn't just a bunch of guys playing pretend - no, these guys are athletes, and this is serious business." It's just never sounded like that to me. When a baseball broadcaster notes that Dave Winfield was drafted by pro teams in both basketball and (American) football, it sounds like he's trying to say that Winfield was a super athlete. When Jim Ross notes that Brian Pillman played football, it sounds the same. I understand that the two announcers are starting from different places - the baseball player is already understood to be an athlete, whereas the wrestler might not be - but they don't sound very different to me. Ross loved to point out that D'Lo Brown was a Certified Public Accountant. He would point this out in half of Brown's matches and possibly even more than that. I never got the impression that he was trying to say something about how professional wrestlers are smarter than you might think; it just sounded like a way of getting Brown over. You feel what you feel, though, so if a whole bunch of people were bothered by Ross' talking about football careers, then it's possible that it hurt more than it helped. This was all perfectly put, and I agree with it. It was a lot worse with Steve Williams. Well, both Steve Williams I should say. It's said when being a good announcer who actually puts people over strongly is viewed as "creepy stalker-type fan". I loved that stuff, because it convinced me. I always felt like Jim Ross was announcing like he was speaking to skeptics. About wrestling. About the match going on in the ring. And this is why I liked him so much.

I've now gotten my hands on almost all of the 1990 USWA Memphis too, which so everyone knows is incredibly rare. The season in circulation from the dollar shillers is NOT the Memphis version. It is from Evansville, and is more of a "best of" from Memphis and Dallas, and is edited like crazy so you get very little of the best of either. The best thing about it is probably the local market Evansville promos, so it still has some value. This has been a big expense and has taken a lot of time and research to get it all, but considering that most of it will be seen by most for the first time ever, I think it's worth it. 1990 will have more rare footage (from Memphis, but also a few other out of nowhere surprises) than any yearbook so far.

Let's try this again. I was trying to clean some things up in the last one and accidentally deleted the entire thing. Reminder: Anything that you anticipate going more than 1-2 posts should be its own thread. I'd prefer for this not to be so big. Thanks.

Which is exactly what Jesse and Vince did. There was a massive audience who were sold on WWF because of Jesse and Vince, many of whom had never seen wrestling before. A worker comes out and does a segment or match, but Jesse commentated entire shows. He was a visible and audible part of WWF's image. To me, growing up, he was on par with the other wrestling personalities. Who exactly was sold on the WWF "because of Jesse and Vince"? Thinking of Jesse first then the wrestler is a key distinction and part of my point. Sure it wasn't that kind of wrestling. It's why I'm not generally a fan of very many aspects of it. And yes, I do think Jim Ross would have done a better job of selling those matches and making them seem better. Jim Ross's football obsession served a purpose in getting over the wrestlers as athletes. Not something I'd compare to Texican-type stuff. Also not sure when Cornette really rambled as a color guy. He's the example I should have used over Hayes even, as late '89-early '90 Cornette in that role was great.

Al's question was about smart fans specifically, not just fans. I would guess that hardcore fandom didn't exist until VCRs in households became a common thing. Not sure what the 70s fan club types would have thought was the best match ever. Maybe Brisco/Dory?

Before I respond, I just wanted to say that I do appreciate Jerry's debating Jesse on the merits. Sometimes, he gets debated on his political career or his movies, so I'm glad we're at least talking about him as a commentator. It has been part of a company that has been more successful, but I wouldn't argue that things like Fuji Vice were the reason the WWF was successful. The things I think the WWF did well that made them successful were: * Promotion of their wrestlers as stars * Organized, long-term booking * Increased emphasis on production that made all other wrestling companies look minor league * Fighting dirty in signing almost all talent with any ability to draw money during a period when they were trying to go national Again, I think the WWF did those things, but had others going on too. I don't know that those other things made them successful. But it's easy to look back and think everything played a part, when I just don't think that's the case. I would argue that they didn't work and have never worked. Those moments were never the key in making the WWF the juggernaut it was. Hogan an his rivalries were important. Having major network presence was. Having a tremendous syndication package was. Having tremendous production values was. I agree with that, but I would also argue that backstage skits and the 20-minute dueling promos were one of the most annoying things about the era. Things that were entertainment for entertainment's sake. Things people put up with so they could see Austin and Rock. Jim Ross was not a character until he joined the WWF. Lance Russell was indeed a character, but the whole purpose of his existence was to get everything else over. When I think of Hogan, I don't think of Jesse Ventura. Same for Tito, Rude and ... Steamboat?? (I don't understand that one at all.) Rude was a star and Jesse liked him, but I just don't see Jesse's selling of Rude as being a key ingredient in Rude being a star. I thought Jesse Ventura was funny. Bobby Heenan was obviously very funny too. I don't think humor is enough to make a guy a good announcer. I need to think the wrestling I am watching is serious, life or death business with something at stake, where winning is the most important thing in the world. Anything that isn't I struggle to enjoy unless it's in an ironic way. (This is why peak Jim Ross is untouchable.) Again, did people enjoy these things? (Quoting myself)

Wrestling hipsterdom? I'd rather not make this a thread where we question the motives of those who disagree with us because we can't refute their points. You pointed to this as a great example of how good Jesse was at the booth. I pointed out why it wasn't. Now, you're changing your tune and saying it's not important, and that I'm focusing too much on it. Where's the consistency? That was a specific example that you brought up. Ventura liked Rude. I won't deny Ventura liked Rude. I will deny that they are any closer linked together than Jesse with any other heel in the WWF or WCW during his announcing days. I don't recall seeing them next to each other on TV very often at all through the years. And it's a longer point than I have time to make at the moment that requires a lot of explanation, but I don't think it's anyone's job in wrestling to be "entertaining". I think it's everyone's job in wrestling to convince you of something -- that someone either deserved to win, should not have won, will win, will lose, will have their ass kicked, will in a championship, etc. They're salesmen, not comedians. And fans derive entertainment from that because said convincing manipulates emotions, but specifically creating moments or lines that are solely to entertain is the slippery slope that eventually eroded fan ability to invest emotionally and gave us Vince Russo. I also think the most entertaining wrestling is that which pretends to be the most serious. You don't offend me by taking Vince over Solie. I think Vince was a great announcer at times.