Loss
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Everything posted by Loss
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How's this? My purpose of starting this thread was to compare how Vince presented his top stars during the 80s to how Vince presented his top stars during this time period. In one time period, playing up the persona more than anything, while in another playing up the toughness and athleticism more than anything. Part of that can be attributed to the people on top being different, but not entirely, as Vince is usually more likely to plug guys into his vision than alter his vision to suit the guys he's pushing. For whatever reason, that's not the WWF during these years. So again, this isn't really about who beat who, who was on the roster, or when they were there (interesting stuff and good posts, but not really what I was getting at.) Does that help? -
Yes, by the standards of the time, 1991 was definitely edgier than the years preceding it. I wonder how much Warrior bombing on top impacted this. Why did you put "family realism" in quotes? I never used that phrase. I never even said it was more realistic. I said it was more old school. Of course it wasn't pure old school, Vince was still Vince. But it was way more old school than it had been in the past. I'm still not sure my point is getting through. Most of what is mentioned here is roster changes, not philosophy changes. During the Hogan era, they weren't going to play up anyone's athletic credentials. They weren't going to play up that they were people with families (unless like Steamboat that in itself was the gimmick). The announcers may talk strategy in passing, but most of the talk was Vince selling the emotion. Somewhere along the way, Vince decided to give this a shot. I don't know if that was a conscious decision or not. There is correlation between the WWF changing philosophy and business going in the tank, but I think Vince may have interpreted it as a causation since he's never gone anywhere near that again. (Also interesting how much more open he was to trying new things during the 90s downturn than the 00s downturn, but that's another topic.) So my point is that we know Vince prefers to build around larger-than-life characters, but during this time, he went against many of his instincts. It's interesting, considering how I don't think he'll ever do that again.
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Can we talk about WWF booking philosophy instead of WWF booking decisions?
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Managers that can't take bumps always suck. This was my biggest problem with DiBiase, Hennig and Rude as seconds in the WWF and WCW -- that there was no way for them to ever get their comeuppance because Lloyds of London wouldn't let them take a punch.
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Never heard that, but it makes sense. I assumed it was a mistake. Was Shawn out for any real reason during this time?
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Larry Zbyszko was supposed to appear on a few TV shows for WCW in 1990 as the AWA champion. Jim Herd decided he didn't want anyone but Sting being billed as the world champ on their TV and pulled it. Problem was, they had already announced he would be appearing the following week on a few shows.
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Good one. It always amuses/baffles me when wrestling companies announce things that aren't a done deal.
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The Public Enemy entrances were great, I'll give them that. And Rick Steiner is more over than I thought he'd be in the ECW Arena. There's nothing else positive I'd say about this, and after a few minutes I realize there's no way I can sit through this whole match, but it worked for the audience at the time, so good for them.
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I thought this was tremendous fun. It resonated with me because it had more personality than the Guerrero/Malenko matches I've seen. Even if the wrestling sequences weren't as good, the match had more character. Eddy got to do all the cheating between highspots that he was awesome for, and seeing him cheered on by the ECW crowd for this stuff is an interesting precursor to the 2003 heel turn when he started getting cheered like crazy that made him a main event star. I don't know if this was a great match, but it was a great showcase for Eddy to do both wrestling and schtick.
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Last few minutes. Stevie is at ringside with Beulah McGillicutty in what is her first chronological yearbook appearance. Stevie kisses Beulah and she slaps him, so he responds by choking her. Dreamer comes out to put a stop to this, but it was a trap -- she sprays him in the eyes with hairspray, then he gets superkicked by Stevie and DDT'd by Raven for the win.
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To add, I recall Paul Heyman doing a Torch Talk late in '93 saying he wanted to establish a working relationship with AJW. Not sure why it never happened.
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We're on a nice roll right now as far as match quality. This is a match I watched years ago and loved, and watching it now for the first time in many years, it's still excellent. Pretty easily the best WCW match so far. They start on the mat working the headlock before building to some nearfalls and ultimately a Sting win. But the thing that stands out most about this match is how Steve Austin was already carrying himself like a star. Maybe he wasn't quite as ready to break through as he'd be a year later, but he was still far better than the push he was getting, and it's hard to see how anyone could watch him work and not see dollar signs. During this time, his job was basically to make guys like Sting (and Alex Wright ... and Marcus Bagwell ... and whoever else they were pushing) look good and give them good matches, but they had no plans for him. That's unfortunate. I think I like the January '94 match slightly better because it's more focused, although this one is more action-packed.
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Flair has a Hulk Hogan cardboard cutout! He starts pleading with him to put in a good word with the Board of Directors. He says he could even be a Hulkamaniac and would never chop him, kick him in the leg, thumb him in the eye, pull his hair, drop a knee, put the figure four on him or interfere in one of his matches again. He even says he'll start taking vitamins and saying prayers, and that they could be partners. No idea what that was about, but fun because Flair is such a cartoon character.
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Plenty of AJ matches don't have the feeling out, so I'm not sure that would be an issue. The point is that there are many things that work in specific environments or time periods in wrestling that wouldn't work in other environments or time periods. All Japan in ECW is one of those things. AJW and/or JWP doing showcase matches I could see fitting in with ECW much better. Aja Kong probably would have gotten over huge in ECW. Not sure about Toyota, but her doing table spots may have been something they could work with.
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This has got to be the best Al Snow match of all time. It's also arguably the best SMW match ever (assuming nothing later in the year tops it). Al Snow looks like a superstar ready to take wrestling by storm. Morton gives him almost the whole match and Snow takes full advantage of it. I love all the punch blocks and some of Snow's submissions are really cool. If he has a weakness, it's that his selling is so over the top that it looks like acting, but everything else about him is great. Morton juices off of an early shot by the loaded glove to set up a coal miner's glove match which also plays into the finish. This is a serious hidden gem that should be talked about more, as it's one of the better matches of the year so far.
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The value of Kobashi is in great matches, not in putting people over. When you have an audience like ECW's, they aren't really influenced enough by wins and losses to treat someone like a star who beats him. I'm not sure Paul E. ever got that, as no one bought Credible beating Sasuke. Not that Baba would let Kobashi do a job to Taz or whoever anyway, and not like it would mean anything even if it did happen. Best case scenario, Kobashi and another AJ guy come in for 1-2 shows and have a great showcase match. But even that I'm not sure would work. So much of All Japan is about context.
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Another promo about the Undertaker coming in. They've hyped this really well.
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Tommy Rich bought some time since he's suspended. He says the only reason Dundee is still in the USWA is because he's such an asskisser. He's sitting on a convertible by lake water, talking about how Jerry Jarrett and Tojo Yammamoto broke him into the business and ended up a bigger star than anyone in the area, and ever since then, they've been trying to cut him off at the knees. He went to Atlanta to prove a point to Jarrett, Lawler and Dundee that he could make it without them and he proved himself by winning the NWA World title and being the youngest man in history to do it. He says now he has the money to do what he wants when he wants and no matter how hard they try, they can't run him out. He's buying a ticket to be at Mid South Coliseum this coming Monday, no matter how many security guards are in his way. Promo of the year, maybe one of the best ones I have ever seen. Ever. MUST-SEE.
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I thought this was magnificent. I would call it my MOTY at this point. So much good stuff to talk about, so let me try to organize my thoughts. The whole approach to this match is to make Taue's win seem inevitable. They create doubt over it at times, but that's the whole point of the match. Even when Kawada is in control, this match is about Taue, which is a credit to both guys understanding the booking purpose and building a match accordingly. When Kawada has Taue in the stretch plum, there are "TAUE!" chants. There are never Kawada chants at any point because Kawada never puts himself in a position to be sympathetic. It's by design. Mission accomplished. To this point, I like that there is a continuity between this match and Taue's earlier match with Kobashi. The Kobashi match had him throwing his usual opening bag of tricks at Taue and Taue asserting himself. Here, Kawada tried the same, and met the same result as Kobashi. Kawada tries distancing himself and Taue follows him, getting Irish whipped into the guardrail. This gets paid off later in the match when Kawada tries the same thing again and Taue is prepared this time, coming back with a big lariat on the floor. Taue is also performing at a much higher level than he was in January, even when doing the same things. Doing the neck vice in the middle of a big flurry of stuff took the momentum of the match down a notch in the January tag. Here, it made sense (and was applied much better) because he was already targeting Kawada's neck. Kawada responds by getting Taue in some nasty submissions, including one where he is stepping on his head while pushing his legs into forced splits, and another where he is hyperextending both arms while pushing his head into the mat. No matter what Kawada throws at Taue -- and he throws quite a bit at him -- Taue consistently comes back. In the closing moments, Kawada seems to hit a realization that he can't beat Taue in this match, so he starts actively seeking a draw. After the nodowa on the floor, Taue throws Kawada in, and Kawada rolls back out. When Taue tries to cover him, he is still trying to get away, and at this point, it's clear that if Taue can keep Kawada in one place, he is going to win this match. Even when Kawada manages to get in a strike, Taue is to his feet first. When he's finally able to execute the dynamic bomb, he gets the win. This works both as a match and as a moment. If the Misawa/Taue final and September match are better than this (which based on hype, I'd expect), I'm in for some great stuff.
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I'm trying to imagine how that would've looked, and failing. How the hell would you try to marry King's Road style with ECW's bloody brawling? Okay, we've seen a few things like that where Cactus worked most of those guys at various times, and plenty of ECW dudes did at least one or two tours in AJPW at some point. But I'm trying to imagine throwing Kobashi in the ring with Sandman or New Jack or Raven or the other garbage guys and wondering exactly what's supposed to happen. I'm thinking it would have to be a showcase match with someone brought along from AJ to put Kobashi over and have good matches with him. Think Michinoku Pro.