Loss

Heel commentators died when the NWO started. Heenan should have been siding with them every week on Nitro wearing a black and white t-shirt at the announce booth, but he didn't.

In short, emotion. A moment like this will probably never happen in wrestling again.

Yeah, they could even go the Unforgiven '03 route with Joe putting his career up against the belt, making it obvious that if you buy this PPV, you will see Joe will win the title. As for Steiner being exposed, I think 8-12 minute title matches against guys much lower on the totem pole where he decimates them aren't a bad idea. He couldn't possibly be a worse champ than Christian Cage turned out to be, much to my surprise.

Yeah, Joe's win will be a big moment and they should put it off as much as possible so they can actually pop a buyrate off of it. Steiner going over right now wouldn't be the worst idea.

Not a huge Test fan or anything, but he was doing fine until he was forced to get that stupid haircut and then had that never-ending, heat-sinking feud with Scott Steiner.

Sorry I'm just now responding to this. I agree that Flair at his best can't touch Jumbo at his best. The difference maker for me is that Flair had the same results, no matter which audience he was performing in front of -- big or small, involved or not involved. I think "lazy" is overstating Jumbo when Meltzer refers to him that way, but it is true that there is a difference between Jumbo's big show stuff and his small show stuff. I also don't know that Jumbo could do the things Flair did with Luger or Sting, although maybe I'm wrong about that, since he pulled it off with Kerry Von Erich. Jumbo is a bonafide legend and I can't say anything bad about him. Not quite sure where you're coming from, but I know while you're not a Morton hater, you're not a huge supporter either. Looking again, I'd probably put him even higher, ahead of Taue and maybe some others. I'm a big fan of Destroyer, but Robinson had just as good as results with Baba and probably Inoki (I haven't seen the '71 match yet). I also have yet to find a single BR match I haven't liked. Destroyer I like almost everything, but sometimes, I do finally want to see him put his game face on and be more aggressive and not just "fun". That said, he's probably the most "fun" wrestler I've ever seen. Looking again, I'd probably go Vader, Rey, Morton and move Vader and Rey up about 10 spots and drop Taue just a little. Dynamite is in great company. I just liked the guys above him that much more. Says a lot about how many great wrestlers there are when Dynamite Kid ends up #35. We tried to convince Jerome of this a while back, but Jumbo Tsuruta is probably the only wrestler ever more talented than Barry Windham. There's an argument for Barry to go much higher. I don't know yet. I'll probably keep moving him around until I finally submit my ballot. I'm curious. I can't argue with anything you said. Brisco is someone who will probably be higher as I see more stuff. Yeah, I think the difference is that he looks so much sleazier than Rude. He's also a better wrestler. I shouldn't think this, but it would be a guilty pleasure if he was in Dragon's Gate in 2006 looking the exact same and beating up all the twinks. El Samurai was in my two favorite juniors matches of the 90s and I like his style quite a bit. Why don't you like Owen? I'm thinking I'm almost at square one again anyway, because I want to make sure I include Angel Azteca, Americo Rocca, Super Astro, MS-1, Emilio Charles Jr, Solar I and maybe even Chavo Guerrero, depending on my mood. It's almost incomprehensible how many good luchadores there are. I also want to talk more about your list, and will probably respond tonight or in the morning.

Rogers was awesome and probably had a greater ability to work in any environment, but the deciding factor for me is that Morton also had a successful, money-drawing program on top with Ric Flair that produced great matches, and also that the Rock & Rolls showed that a tag team of 190 lb guys could get over as not only underdogs, but underdog main eventers and underdog heavyweights as well. I'm interested in how Jumbo/Kikuchi would have done as a short-term singles program. It probably would have rocked.

HHH could probably win way more than he does without anyone bitching if his interviews didn't cut the other guy down quite as much. If you recall, HHH has had his biggest money feuds with Austin, Rock, Michaels and Batista, four guys he has treated like equals (for the most part) in the buildup.

All I have to say is that Joe's promo on Scott Steiner where he focused on his strengths and made his opponent look good did a lot to help the build for that match. That was what they used to call a money promo.

HHH needs to concede occasionally that he lost to the better man. Flair did that pretty much every time he jobbed, and said "but you were only better for one night". It's like in 2004, when HHH lost to Benoit a half dozen times, but HHH still treated Benoit like an underdog.

The main problem with Cena being protected isn't the way he's booked, but the way others are booked to interact with him. I'd say at this stage, with over a year of being on top under his belt, he shouldn't be taken lightly by his challengers anymore.

It's GREAT that they're sticking with Cena, although I'm sure some people out there are upset about it.

Yeah, that match being excluded has me sort of pissed off.

I find it amusing that Rock played the Liz to Hogan's Savage at Wrestlemania X-8 in the post-match angle, with Hall and Nash as Sherri.

Regarding Satanico, you are definitely right. Those Koshinaka matches were awesome, and so is the Estrada match from 1990. Have you seen the Kosh matches? I thought about it and moved him up. I don't feel comfortable sending him too much higher when I haven't seen an overwhelming amount of stuff, but I can comfortably put him above the people below him for sure. I considered including Perro Jr. after watching that match with Santo from 8/04. Have you seen that? Holy mackerel, what a match! While I'd probably say Perro is as good as or better than Danielson and Joe, I didn't include him because he still has another 20 years or so ahead of him, more than likely, and he may end up being the first lucha libre superworker who doesn't leave for the US and has almost all of his career footage readily available.

We know the real truth Tag teams were a Southern fad Territories die

Look it's Kevin Nash! X Division needs his help Money drawn is zilch

Ok, Kobashi switches places with Liger, who switches places with Eddy. Looking at that now, there's really no argument whatsoever for Kobashi being below Eddy Guerrero. At least not one I can think of. I also made a few other adjustments. Top 10 is now Flair, Jumbo, Kawada, Takada, Kobashi, Casas, Liger, Guerrero, Santo, Lawler. I'm happy with that.

Wild is two syllables?

Justin Credible Is a former champion Lou Thesz weeps in dust

5-7-6 8-9-7 17-11-15 4-7-? 5-7-6 Right you are Marty The words that you see below Are not a haiku 5-6-5

Great Khali is big He is also very tall Seven feet of huge

Triple H is stale Shawn Michaels is old and bald Spirit Squad will die

Problem with Bigelow for me is output. I saw Dustin in more good-great matches from 1991-1994 than I saw Bigelow in over the course of his career. There is an argument for Dustin over Jannetty or vice versa, but as I said in the past, Michaels has to be significantly higher every time out if Jannetty is included. I look above Michaels and I struggle to place him above anyone listed above him, although I definitely think he deserves a place on the list. Foley made my second draft and I'm happy with where I have him. Some of the other eliminations were difficult, but I'll cover those in a minute. I see him as the worst of the 80s NJ juniors myself, behind Takada, pre-costume Liger, Hase and Kobayashi. The Kobayashi matches I've seen against Koshinaka were eye-openers for me, for both guys. The main argument I've come across for Koshinaka was his matches against Satanico from Arena Mexico that I just watched not long ago. They are outstanding. But his NJ stuff still does very little for me. I'd call him the Lex Luger of the NJ juniors in that he was pretty good at his best and able to follow along in big matches, but totally not capable of orchestrating one on his own. Asuka ended up making my list and doing fairly well. I consider her an oversight at this point. She's taken care of.0 I like to call that The Tabe Decision. I too pondered Kobashi and Takada against each other, even though there is a significant gap between them in the numbering. One of them was going to end up way higher than the other one and one would end up not only behind the other, but other people as well. Takada won out in the end, but Kobashi is obviously great. He does. At first, honestly, I wasn't understanding the extremely high placing from the fellow lucha fans, just because I saw a lot of great stuff in a really short time, and my thoughts on that have always been that while it's impressive, I don't think one hot run is enough to carry a wrestler high on this list. (It's why Hokuto just missed the Top 10.) What's far more important to me is a longer run of consistency, even if the peak isn't quite as high. Anyway, what finally sold me on Dandy as someone deserving of a high spot was his role in the '96 Santo/Casas stuff and his great 2004 match with Parka from ENESMA. I saw some longevity there and it helped his case, and both of those matches are terrific and as good as almost anything that year. I have a feeling that when I finally get all the way through 1991 CMLL that Dandy will be in almost all of the top 10 matches for a three year period. I've also seen him in 1986-1987 trios and been very impressed as well. I wouldn't argue that at all. Kong losing the WWWA title to Kansai was what was fresh in my mind when I made her a top 20 pick. Just an amazing match and moment, and possibly the best ending of a long, effective time in the top role I've seen. Kong is someone that might be higher if I did this list in a few years. With Misawa, the best advice I can give anyone who disagrees is to pay more attention to the people ranked above him than the number beside his name. I don't see how anyone above him doesn't deserve to be higher. Tenryu is one of the better old man wrestlers I've seen, and the fact that I think his elderly stuff is better than elderly Flair, Funk, Bock, Koloff, etc, along with the super classicos with Jumbo in the late 80s, made me rank him highly. That said, I overrated him, especially in relation to Funk. I fixed that. I know we've discussed this before, but my biggest issue with Terry Funk is that it's painful for me to watch him after the Flair feud. And actually, I shouldn't say the Flair feud completely, because his run in 1990 USWA was a favorite of mine as well. But after that, I don't see it. I respect and acknowledge the role he had in ECW taking off, but I look at that time period and see a guy who had the potential to lead and instead followed in the footsteps of guys like Sabu in terms of stunts. While obviously he's lesser of a problem than Foley on this, Funk is a large part of the reason the bar is too high for big bumps. I also resent him prostituting himself to a point where he eventually became an opening match, comedy guy in a dying WCW in 2000, when there's no good reason a respected world champ should end his career on that note. If anything, Chiggy will continue to go up, not down. Being as good as she was when her charisma could have carried her without her having to work hard is a strong case for her. She's basically a super worker version of Steve Austin. I don't agree - at all - with the people who say that Arn can be argued as being better than Flair, but every time I find a new Arn match, my opinion of him goes up that much more. There was really very little he couldn't do. If anything, he's a sad reminder of the dip the overall talent pool has taken in the past 10-15 years or so. If Arn was young now, being able to work and talk like that, he'd be getting pushed as a main event guy. Back then, he was considered a strong midcarder. Times have changed. Brisco is probably someone who could be ranked above Arn, but I feel like I'd be ranking him higher out of obligation if I went higher. And I'm someone who has definitely enjoyed the Jack Brisco I've seen. Like Kong, probably higher in a few years. As for Windham, I love the guy, as you well know, but after 1993, he didn't just fall a few notches. He wasn't even good anymore. I'd be less lenient on Windham's decline if he would have reached the level his talents deserved *and then* slipped off, but he was on the cusp of greatness and fell short. And it was pretty much all his fault. While he was obviously the fourth best of the four, I already feel like there's an unreasonable gap between him and M-K-K on this list. I just can't justify putting Taue any higher. As for Hase, I'm curious where you think the right place is for him, because you've told me at various points that I've had him both way too high and way too low. I could see going even higher for Morton and could probably justify it, but I'm happy with where I have him. I was thinking about those great exchanges with Kikuchi in those six-man tags in the early 90s and I was thinking about some specific spots of his that were just so mean-spirited and awesomely cruel. The guy stood on Kikuchi's chin! That said, he ended up taking the plunge to a point where he completely fell off my list, because while I enjoyed that, I couldn't justify having him so high with Lioness Asuka and Mick Foley watching from the bleachers. I ended up pushing her higher. Billy over Beyer is just a case of me really liking Billy Robinson as a threat to his opponent. As much as I love Destroyer, I haven't come across any of his stuff yet where it doesn't look like he's having the time of his life in the ring. Sure, that's awesome most of the time, but I want to see him show some hate too. I wanted to rank Bock higher, but he's at the point where things started getting tough. I think I did move him up a little, but not significantly. I ended up putting Vader and Rey next to each other. They seem like a really appropriate comparison. The only differences I see in Benoit and DK is that Benoit had a much longer run and in many cases, wrestled much lesser talent and got great results. That was enough to put Benoit quite a bit higher, but I find this a strange charge to make unless you also think the same weakness applies to Benoit. I love Dump. She may be the best heel of all time. Yeah, that is a little high for him. I'm comfortable with my placing for him. As much as I like Yamazaki, there is a significant gap between him and Takada. Significant. I'd actually say Bret was both naturally better and has been in more matches that I've liked. But not by a huge margin or anything. Rocco dropped quite a bit on my list, not because of any weakness on his part, but because I realized that while I love what I've seen, I haven't seen enough to justify ranking him so highly. The Rey matches in AAA, and in 1999 WCW, it's hard to say who was better between him and Benoit. DiBiase was great at wrestling one type of match -- Southern style. I think he's awesome, obviously, but if you look at Bret's best and Steamboat's best, it seems a little more varied. Han deserves a spot on every list, but one of the biggest challenges a wrestler faces is having great matches with a rough schedule. Another big challenge is delivering in situations where it's not expected. Han is more impressive than even Flair and Jumbo at certain aspects of his game, but wrestling is a marathon, not a sprint. That's the best way I know to put it. He fell quite a bit. Kobayashi and DK deserve major credit for getting him so over as a superstar and world class wrestler, though. Angle is a more athletic version of Tazz. Sayama's case is significantly stronger to me, just because he had good matches in more than one style. Sarge over Kroffat came down to better singles matches. Martel was every bit as good as Steamboat without the opportunity. Hard-nosed brawler who throws some damn weak punches and kicks, and has that stupid Thesz press move and that gyrating elbow drop. People talk about his brilliant 2001, but I see matches with Benoit, one with Rock, and then him carrying Angle to a much better than expected match, but I don't see this consistent greatness from him. I've never seen Austin carry someone from nothing to something. I also have a problem with Austin squashing guys like Jericho and Booker and compare that with what Bret did with the 1-2-3 Kid. Austin is good, very good. And at his peak, he was great. But he was never this blowaway guy anywhere approaching the absolute cream of the crop for me. Love his matches - mostly - as a heel, but as a babyface, I don't feel like he let his opponents have enough time on offense. Owen went higher for me. I don't think you need to worry about his placing, Dylan. Why would you? Those Bret matches will push him in this list with most of the voters. Tully jumped up quite a bit on my second draft. Otani had one great year and very little I've enjoyed outside of it. Toyota ended up going quite a bit higher as well. Finlay dropped off my list. I've enjoyed him recently, but honestly, he was really ineffective in WCW and was seen by the average viewer as being in that same group as guys like Mike Enos and Van Hammer and Emory Hale. Getting over yourself and your opponent and matches having heat has to count for something at some point. Of course, part of me is still bitter about the crappy Best of 7 booking with Benoit/Booker where Finlay, the least over of the three, was the champ who didn't do much. I think he's way more engaging than Finlay, at least WCW-era Finlay. I also really enjoyed his renaissance in 1994. I was watching Lightning Kid/Jerry Lynn matches from Global last night and Waltman was on the same level with modern Danielson and Joe in those matches. But I wouldn't have Waltman on a list like this, which is why I think it's way too early for those two to be on a list like this. Those Rockers matches were great, and he was the glue that held them together. Also enjoyed his matches in early 80s WWF with Snuka and Backlund, and the Portland I've seen against guys like DK, Adonis, Hennig, etc. has rocked. Those matches with Flair look better and better with age. Not really on the same level as Flair/Steamboat or Flair/Windham, but probably on the next tier down in terms of Flair feuds. And Garvin brought every bit as much to those matches as Flair did. I also love that he's still influential in 2006, with Roderick Strong basically being a carbon copy of Ron Garvin. I think most of the IC-style voters have been phased out at this point, but maybe I'm wrong. Kyoko ended up going up for a while and then back down when I made room for the new people. Hennig went quite a bit higher and Rude went right below Michaels. I think best Rude is actually better than best Michaels, but Michaels had a better overall run.