Loss

Punk beats him on quality output, but Owen is just so vastly better at the mechanics and technique of pro wrestling, and his personality doesn't get the credit it deserves either.

I am interested in whether post-2016 has been a net positive or negative? I see a strong case in both directions.

I'm admittedly in some ways using Casas to make a larger point about how AJPW and AJW (and to a lesser extent, the NJ juniors) being chronicled so well in the late 90s-early 2000s gives them an advantage on a project like this, in the same way that I think long-time WWF/WWE wrestlers benefit over people who peaked in WCW or the territory era. It seemed to me like the best way to counter that would be to do a similar undertaking for wrestling that isn't 90s All Japan or AJW. If I'm the one complaining about it, maybe I should at least try to do it.

Felt like a good comparison. Larger-than-life explosive wrestlers of the 80s who evolved into more establishment figures in the 90s.

This felt like an interesting comparison. Jericho has had the better and more successful career. Barry Windham was a much better professional wrestler.

I'm not even saying "show me a list of matches". I think what I'm saying could even work as a biography of his career, stopping along the way to point out specific things worth seeing, but more important, just establishing a narrative and having that accessible to anyone who's going to vote. A greatest hits album falls short of that like it would for any candidate. Something more than, "He's always great, take our word for it", whatever form that entails.

I think that's well and good for calling someone a great wrestler, but for someone with a #1 case, I think you really need a full jdw-style pimping post.

To be clear, I don't doubt Casas. I see him as upper echelon. I just think large swaths of his career that made tape have gone largely not talked about.

Ok, but which specific trios matches? That's what I'm saying. Instead of speaking to his greatness in a general sense, what are the specific trios matches you'd say, "These are the ones to watch to understand the Casas case."

I think this is an extremely valid point and really cuts to the heart of it. Most lucha matches are trios matches, but most highly recommended and talked about matches are singles matches. I'm not saying the biggest Casas fans haven't presented his case. They absolutely have. I had him in the top five (don't remember exactly where at the moment) last time and ahead of Funk. With hindsight, I think that was in haste. It may have been deserved, but ... it seems sometimes like a lot of the people (not those posting in this thread) who have the biggest complaints with Great Match Theory make the case for the luchadores on Great Match Theory.

No, we don't. And my argument would be that we should probably have this for them to the extent it's possible, since we do for the top contenders in the US and Japan.

My point is that there aren't really periods in Funk's career or famous programs that we haven't talked about on this board. Could someone name the best matches Negro Casas has had on tape every year of his career (for the years we have something)? I have no concept of what he was doing in 1993, 1994 or 1995 for the most part, for example. It seems to always just go back to the matches everyone knows about.

I'd have Funk ahead at this point, but I'm open to hearing the case for Casas. I would like to see some of his biggest advocates make the week-to-week case for Negro Casas, especially focused on the smaller matches.

No.

Putting someone on the top rope and then both wrestlers being up there for what seems like an eternity trying to get in position for something.

This feels like a great thread to ask a question I've long wondered. We've never really heard the back story behind the Maeda shoot kick on Choshu to my knowledge. Why did he do it? What is the other side of the story? I do remember Dave reporting there was buzz in the arena that it was going to happen even before it did, which suggests it was planned. I would be interested in someone laying out the entire story there.

I removed a post referring to something negative happening online that the person involved requested I delete, so that it doesn't get more attention than it deserves.

Halloween Havoc '94 was loser must retire and was huge on PPV. Nitro didn't exist yet. Hogan won. SuperBrawl IX was just a title match and was huge on PPV. Neither wrestled the next night. Uncensored '99 was a first-blood match cage and was down on PPV with the heel/face reversal. They worked opposite sides of a tag match the next night on Nitro. They did a bunch of skits in April-May 1999 with Flair being committed to a mental institution by Roddy Piper. Horrible stuff. Practically everyone in WCW was a turn-off at this point.

I think in the late 80s, Flair wouldn't have done the thing where he was pretending to like the people in Memphis and throwing them insincere compliments. He would have just gone straight for the jugular more directly and overtly. He would have screamed more right away too. Absolutely.

One thing I struggle with on this is hearing JR be critical of stuff where he was conveying excitement when he actually called the match. I realize that's his job, but when he bashes something that he called with such emotion at the time, he loses credibility with me. I think it's harder for announcer to do a tell-all than a wrestler for this reason -- you don't want them telling you they were actually lying.

- What do they look like on their best night? - What do they look like on their worst night? - What do they look like on an average night? - What did we get the most of?

I've explored the early 80s a lot in recent months and totally agree that Flair was a different wrestler after 1985. It's not just the in-ring either -- the persona changed in a lot of ways. I'd argue the big phases of his career as: - The days before he was champion and Mid-Atlantic (primarily) star (1973-1981) - The world and country-traveling champion (late 1981-1985) - The company heel champion (1986-1990) - The guy who could still be great on the right night but wasn't quite RIC FLAIR anymore (1991-1994) - The guy struggling to adjust to a new landscape and having mixed results (1995-1999) I have nothing to add about him after that. If those are the five phases, Phase 1 is the one we understand the least and have to rely on memories and myth. Phase 2 is the most fun and varied, while Phase 3 is some really high-end resume padding. Phase 4 is a compliment to his longevity, and Phase 5 has its share of ups and downs. Phase 2 has less great matches than Phase 3, but if you want to understand in 2021 why people loved Ric Flair, Phase 2 will enlighten more than Phase 3.

I think a lot of what we blame on workrate is really probably just too much awareness of history. It's a post-modernist problem. Michaels really brought the idea of creating matches with the intent of going down in history to the foreground, and now everyone seems to work that way, instead of just trying to make the fans who bought a ticket happy enough that they'll come back next time. WrestleMania isn't just the biggest show of the year, it's now the "showcase of the immortals". I would also say he's one of the wrestlers who brought the idea of everything being played for maximalist impact at all times to the foreground. That's not just about doing big moves, or even doing too many big move kickouts (although that is possibly a symptom). It's this idea that wrestling is a medium that has more power than it really does, so every match needs an elaborate beginning, middle and end. By not working some in-between non-epics, you train fans to think nothing matters until people start kicking out of big moves, where if a match occasionally looked to be going long but finished 3 minutes in, or 5-6 minutes in, or 10-12 minutes in, maybe people would care about the beginning and middle more because they would truly believe that a match could end at any time. I don't know, just spitballing, there's probably a more articulate way to put all of this.