Loss

I do agree with that. At the same time, if Jumbo isn't number one because making him number one would be "boring", that is also bad. I'm not really coming at Dylan with that post, as he has a visceral reaction to Jumbo at this point that I don't see the same way, but at least it's not rooted in response to popular consensus. It was more of a response to OJ. I see the wrestling fan psychology on full display in a lot of this process. If someone is pushed too hard, many people reject it outright and would prefer to see someone new on top.

How boring is this? Shows no forward thinking since 2006. Is the point of GWE to be accurate or novel? How about challenging assumptions? From my experience, getting involved in debates over this type of thing doesn't go anywhere good. But I feel the need to defend Parv here. He challenged the assumptions about Dory at this board. He has challenged assumptions about Flair at this board. He has even challenged his own assumptions about the U.S. indy guys. He's not someone I think we can accuse of digging his head in the sand when he thinks he is right about something. Also, I'd be interested in reading a real answer to the question he posed.

It's pretty much entirely conjecture at this point. But it's absolutely something I want to explore. In terms of that generation of death match workers, I think Kanemura's working style most closely resembles Onita's out of everyone in that crop. And of course you can't talk about him without talking about that Kevin Sullivan match in SMW. What intrigued me about W*ING was seeing that they had a few matches at Korakuen Hall playing off of the SMW match.

It was.

He also had a concussion last year in that angle where he broke away from Bray Wyatt. If he's the modern Mick Foley, which Bix said and I agree with, how long until Seth Rollins retires him?

I just came here to ask what the point is in doing a match as short as Fandango vs Curtis Axel was, and on top of that, putting Fandango over. It's not that Curtis Axel is hot right now, but he is moreso than Fandango. I am still not sure I understand why they don't put a 20+ minute match on RAW every week between good workers so people like us will shut up at least a little. They struggle to fill time, so why are so many of the matches so short?

Was it just VHS space issues? I remember in the late 1990's when WWE went back and released full versions of older WrestleManias on VHS, the quality was horrible. Bill Watts addressed it once, as it was something he fought during his WCW tenure and tried to have changed. THE felt that rentals would be a hard sell for a three-hour tape. Watts of course made the obvious counter, that three-hour videos had not hurt the WWF in the rental market at all. They made the switch sometime in 1993, but I'm not sure exactly when. As late as Beach Blast '93, they were still two hours, and as early as I believe Starrcade '93, they were unedited. So I guess somewhere in that window. Then there's not releasing SuperBrawl IV commercially for who knows what reason.

Not debating that the decision was 100% incorrect, but how is this on the same level as Austin going heel? The HHH-Angle-Stephanie soap opera was huge stuff at the time, and this is just based on my gut feeling, but it especially seemed that way among female fans who watched for The Rock and Hardy Boys and this storyline. It had the potential to transcend a normal wrestling angle because it was surprisingly well-written by pro wrestling standards. In the end, it was a wrestling angle all the way. They ended up doing the angle where HHH dumped Stephanie in 2002 and it didn't mean nearly as much as it would have here. I would also submit Lex Luger only beating Yokozuna by countout at Summerslam '93 and looking like an idiot in the process. I suppose that's more of a case of the right guy going over in the wrong way.

Any idea when in 1982 this was? Remember that there was also a Flair-Backlund match hyped as champion vs champion in The Omni that summer. It's not as unthinkable as it would have been two years later.

Actually, the story goes that Luger wanted Steamboat to call their matches, but Steamboat insisted that Luger do it since he was the heel. And supposedly, those ended up the best matches of their series, for what it's worth. Anyway, yeah, I don't think we know in most cases, but I think there are times it's painfully obvious. For example, if you watch Bret-Davey Boy at Summerslam '92, Bret is clearly the one directing traffic and pacing the match. I think basing it on the track records of the guys involved outside of the match in question is a mistake. As was said earlier the thread, even a poor or average worker can have a great night every once in a while.

What you think was the inspiration was indeed the inspiration.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if a wrestling match works in the moment but doesn't really transcend time. I think it's more nuanced than that. Some matches are great in the context of their time and what surrounded them, but are not as enjoyable now. Some matches look better with hindsight than they did at the time. Some matches are timeless. All have positives in very different ways.

In theory, it seems like ratings would go up if the top two or three matches on next week's show were announced in advance, as long as it's a fairly compelling lineup. I'm not saying something like Rollins vs Orton, as one example, would pop a rating, but Rollins vs Orton with a week of hype would theoretically pop a bigger rating than Rollins vs Orton announced cold. Speaking of other pet peeves, creating social media buzz for something earlier in the same day, like Daniel Bryan's teased retirement or Savage going into the Hall of Fame, seems like it would be far more effective if it was coupled with promotion on RAW and Smackdown for at least the entire week beforehand. In theory (once again), both shows being on the same network will make it easier to keep continuity and hype the next episode.

This would be my pick as well. What we know about the guy makes him seem pretty amazing and it's sad that we don't have any footage to back that up. Also, while we do have a few matches of his, I'd love to have more Jim Londos footage available so we could look at his performances and figure out what about his working style contributed to his stardom.

I totally agree with this. I am not someone who cares so much about process as long as the end result is good, but it's usually painfully obvious that matches are planned out in advance. Guys who can work a pre-planned match that they make seem spontaneous and reactive to the whims of the crowd have my respect. So for me, it's not so much about whether they planned the match out in advance. It's more about whether it's obvious watching the match that they are sticking to a script.

He defended against Jumbo Tsuruta, Hiroshi Wajima and Tiger Mask on a March 1987 tour of All Japan, then faced Jumbo again in October but wasn't the NWA champ at the time. The October tour was his last All Japan tour.

If I didn't have an outlet to talk about the wrestling I watch, I would have checked out a long time ago. I think I'd say I enjoy both equally.

Fozzy might be an okay nostalgia band if Chris Jericho could actually sing.

When my employer would not let me off work to go to Memphis for St. Valentine's Day Massacre in '99 (Austin-Vince in the cage), I quit my job. I thought I'd find another one, but I didn't for three months, so that was the kind of thing you do when you're 19 years old and an idiot.

- All shows in the history of pro wrestling not being recorded - All shows in the history of pro wrestling that were recorded not being made available by the people who own the footage - Vince McMahon's sophomoric humor, outdated ideas of race, masculinity and body image and micromanagement of WWE television that keep the company from growing - Fans who talk about wrestling without the pretense that it's real while still caring about size because of credibility - Double, triple and quadruple standards

Would general talk about wrestling philosophy and best ___ ever-type topics go in the Current folder or the Old School folder? I do like the idea, but just wanted to see if you have any thoughts on that aspect of it, as not every topic is based on a time period.

Having an IC title match in the main event spot of tonight's Smackdown I think speaks well for it, along with them putting the title on a star. I'll have more to say about this after Smackdown, but this is one of the things I'm most intrigued to follow in the coming months. I don't see them beating Bryan every week like they typically do their IC champs, mainly because it was in the WON that their goal is to give fans the types of matches they want from Bryan so they'll shut up. WWE habitually loses interest in these things after a few weeks or months, though, so it may not go anywhere meaningful. But for now, it's a noble goal.

Andre-Hogan was called a bad match at the time and that's because it was a bad match. The layout was pretty good and it was an epic series of moments like the staredown, bodyslam and finish. Whoever laid it out deserves credit. But as far as how the two participants executed it, I can't think of much good to say. I always think of that horrible piledriver reversal on the floor that some of you would rightfully rip to shreds if it happened in a Ric Flair or Shawn Michaels match. If Hogan and Andre called it in the ring, that speaks well to their ability to think on their feet and create a match that worked for the audience. But if thinking was all it took to be a great wrestler, we would all be GOAT candidates.

It would be interesting to hear him talk more philosophically about what makes a good or bad announcer, how important credibility is, etc. Maybe some do's and don'ts. Opinions on good color commentary would be appreciated too.

I don't know that he grasps that a match working in its time *is* a universal concept that can be used to make comparisons.