Loss

TNA is store brand WWE.

The sadist in me still wants to see the elusive match from Global where he tore out Rod Price's weave and left him a bloody mess.

I love his match against Inoki on 8/5/71 also.

Sorry, just one more point: Even in the case of PPV buys, I feel like low numbers during carrier disputes should have an asterisk. I think of the WWF having a dispute with DirecTV at the end of 2001, which just so happened to coincide with the push of Chris Jericho. Maybe Jericho wasn't a PPV draw in his first main event push at that level, but someone looking back on those numbers without that knowledge might be harsher on him than he deserves.

I think we could make that conclusion, but I'm not sure we should without also looking at the undercard support, finishes of previous shows in the same market, competing pop culture events happening the same night, weather and so on. I realize we aren't privy to a lot of that information, which is why most of the drawing arguments start from a flawed place in my opinion. Still, that aside, we wouldn't say that Ricky Steamboat was automatically a better worker than Terry Funk in 1989 because he had more five-star matches. We may come to that conclusion after discussing it further, but it wouldn't be simple math. I realize that's not what you're arguing - what you're arguing is more that the gates provide a factual starting point, which is true. I still don't think we have enough context to argue these things properly in many cases, though. We do in some cases. Clash III drew a lower rating than Clash I. But Clash III was also head-to-head with the MTV VMAs. Wrestlemania XIX drew a low number. We were entering the Iraq War at the time and people didn't have wrestling on the brain. Mid South Coliseum attendance nosedived when parking lots were unlit, security was crap and they had no air conditioner in the building. I wish those types of extraneous factors were discussed more, at least when we have the information.

Well, Bret Hart was still doing it in the 90s so I'm not quite sure that's true.

I keep seeing this idea in the thread that Dave is the guy who picks who is in the HOF.

It's not like the old days where you had a picture of the wrestler and their name on the shirt. If anything, they try to disguise that it's a wrestling shirt as much as possible and come up with some other type of hook to sell it. So that's why I say it's the design of the shirt that sells more than the wrestler it is supposed to represent.

I also think wrestling has become something weird when being able to design a cool t-shirt is more valued than being able to connect with a crowd.

Still, why are the people buying all of this merchandise so quiet?

I'd love to try to figure out why that's the case. Why are your more vocal fans not spending money? Why are your fans who are spending money not being loud?

Flair and Dusty is the one I want to see. Loonngg history together and animosity at one point that seems to be resolved now.

I feel like drawing money is even subjective in some ways, but maybe this isn't the right topic for that debate. I don't know.

That matchup happened a few times and I've only seen one version of it. The 2/26/95 match is great and the others are supposed to be, but I haven't seen them.

I apologize. I was being snarky but I did only mean it as a joke. I like the name Stomper List myself. Here's some 90s lucha Rey I'd recommend for people that want to get a feel for how he was early in his career: 11/30/94 - Rey Misterio Jr. vs Juventud Guerrera 04/21/95 - Rey Misterio Jr. vs Juventud Guerrera 09/22/95 - Rey Misterio Jr. vs Psicosis 06/16/95 - Rey Misterio Jr. vs Juventud Guerrera 03/16/96 - Rey Misterio Jr. vs Juventud Guerrera 02/21/97 - Rey Misterio Jr. vs El Hijo del Santo There is also the touring matches he had in Japan. I don't think any of them are particularly strong, but they do help to paint a complete picture. 12/13/95 - Rey Misterio Jr. vs Psicosis (Super J Cup) 04/19/96 - Rey Misterio Jr. vs Psicosis 07/20/96 - Rey Misterio Jr. vs Juventud Guerrera 10/11/96 - Rey Misterio Jr. vs Psicosis My personal opinion on these matches was that Psicosis was the one carrying him. I do think that early on, while Rey was the more dynamic high flyer and was so exceptionally good at it that he received quite a bit of much-deserved attention, Psicosis was the more complete wrestler. That's actually reflected in worker polls that happened among hardcores at the time too. Rey did eventually surpass Psicosis, which is the big difference between them - Rey continued to evolve and improve while Psicosis peaked early and that was it. Juventud had moments of brilliance, but I do think Rey was always the more consistent wrestler of the two, as Juventud also had some terrible off nights.

I'm referring to this. HHH makes his entrance. Steve Austin makes his entrance. HHH is so anxious to get his hands on Austin that he leaves the ring and runs to him on the entrance ramp and they start brawling immediately, going around the ring before finally making their way in.

Do they? Hansen usually makes his entrance.

Something that I think would be interesting is more discussion of Dick Murdoch's promos. Are there any on tape that we can pretty safely refer to as great money promos, something where he built anticipation for a match especially well? I know he was a great talker, but some specific examples would be good too. Was he one of the best talkers of his era? Where does he rank among the best promo guys of his time? Top five? Top ten?

It means I'm inadvertently drawing attention to myself at the expense of some of the cool wrestling discussion at this board, so I'd rather just get back to normal.

If this is distracting people from focusing on the project itself, then I should lock this thread. Especially when the posts are starting to become more about me and less about my point.

I was told on Twitter that whether it's my intent or not, this comes across as me undermining the whole project, which makes me feel a little rotten because that wasn't my intent. Anything that gets people watching more wrestling is great and worthwhile, and I encourage everyone to participate and watch as much as possible. The world is full of great wrestling worth checking out. Whatever hang-ups I have about submitting a final ballot aren't strong enough to call the whole project a bad idea by any means. I think it's a great idea, and I hope people have fun. This is the last thing I'll say about this topic.

Since pretty much everyone seemed to disagree with me on this, I decided to think on it for a while and come back to it. And I still have enough of an issue with this that I don't think I can submit a ballot. I think the process is useful. It's turning people on to wrestling they may not have checked out otherwise. I think that's great. I'll keep participating in the threads as well. But the viewing gaps aren't just gaps, they are deep potholes. I understand the impracticality of expecting everyone to see every recorded match in wrestling history before casting a ballot, and that's not at all what I'm advocating. But I do think everyone should check out all the matches that were getting love from people watching at the time - along with anything else that looks interesting on paper that could have been overlooked at the time - before casting a ballot. I can't do that by the deadline, and I watch a ton of wrestling. I'm not expecting everyone here to have watched every single indy match that is available on tape from the last 20 years, for example, before casting a ballot. But I do think if something got MOTY support or otherwise significant buzz at the time - regardless of what people may say about it now - it should be seen. While none of these sources are all encompassing by any means, I think that means watching every match from everywhere that Dave Meltzer or Mike Lorefice or John McAdam or Herb Kunze or Wade Keller or Steve Sims has ever put at four stars or higher if it's available on tape. I think it means looking at everything someone at this board has called great - both older and more recent - or something that was talked up a lot in old DVDVRs or jdw pimping posts. It means watching all the stuff praised on Segunda Caida or in OJ's blog. I think it's wonderful that this project is acting as the impetus for people who had never seen an AJW or Joint Promotions in their lives to check a few things out, but there is only enough time to scratch the surface. I think the process is awesome. It's the destination that I have a problem with.

If only someone had done similar lists for Ric Flair ...

Takada is the type of guy that I think those who have never really seen him should at least see a decent sampling of and then decide for themselves if he belongs or not. He'll be on the lower end of my ballot if he makes it at all, but he has been a part of too many iconic matches to just write off completely sight unseen.