Loss

Talk about it here.

Talk about it here.

Talk about it here.

Talk about it here.

That's actually Bull Nakano vs Devil Masami. And it's a fantastic pick for something like this.

There are definitely exceptions, but I feel like most of the violence in FMW was merely implied. Onita showed up bandaged all the time to suggest that he was constantly wounded and we saw things that would be barbaric if they were legit for sure. But they weren't. They absolutely crossed the line occasionally, but to me, that happened more with guys like Honma and Yamakawa than it did Onita.

In the case of both Onita and Foley, lesser guys copied the more sensationalist aspects of their act without realizing none of it would have worked without their innate charisma and understanding of who they were and what they were doing.

Rovert, I posted this in the folder over a week ago: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28930-jumping-out-of-the-bubble/ That doesn't sound like a project that's just wanting to represent "PWO approved favorites". I also defended you in that thread about Prince Devitt and have even banned people from this forum for trolling you in the past. Maybe you've had issues with Will, but I've defended you quite a bit. In addition, I have also asked many times that people stop with the "PWO thinks this" stuff. I don't know why you can't at least try to accommodate that simple, polite request. I'm going to turn the tables. With regards to the problems that you have mentioned with this board, how do you suggest they be fixed? What should I do? I feel like I've said over and over again that anyone should contact me when they have a problem with the board that's making it less enjoyable, and I also feel like I've gone out of my way - some would say pointlessly so - to invite fans of people to post more here that don't really have a lot of fans on this board. More than anything, I want a good board, but more than anything else, I just want as many people to be happy and feel comfortable posting here as possible. Apparently that's not the case and that's too bad. We'll just keep doing what we do.

Dave

Bill, check this out. http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=9;t=049559

It should also be noted that there was a debate between Jack Brisco and Dave Meltzer at Wrestling Classics years ago over the term. Jack Brisco said the term did not exist in wrestling when he was active and Dave said that was absolutely not true because he learned it from people within wrestling. So there you go.

I should also add that Stampede really wanted Flair to defend against Owen Hart in Calgary during 1988, but Crockett wasn't letting him go anywhere by now. Even if the matchup wasn't shown complete, that would be fascinating to view considering where both were at the time.

Ric Flair's fifth title reign was the most disappointing at this point in his career, even though it's still excellent. Booking in JCP was getting stale and he didn't have any fresh opponents. He was also working with guys that were considered beneath him and he was no longer doing any touring at all. There was also the political chaos associated with the decline of the NWA and rise of WCW. I think for those looking for great performances, you're going to find them here more than great matches, even though there are a few great matches. He was largely working with guys who he had to help along while also trying to get them over enough that people would think his title reign was in jeopardy. Winning and losing the title Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (11/26/87) - Starrcade, cage match Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat (02/20/89) - Chi-Town Rumble Five Times The Man (11/26/87 - 02/20/89) Ric Flair vs Michael Hayes (12/05/87) - TBS TV Ric Flair vs Sting (01/02/88) - Pro Ric Flair vs Road Warrior Hawk (01/24/88) - Bunkhouse Stampede Ric Flair vs Sting (02/07/88) - Worldwide Ric Flair vs Ricky Santana (03/19/88) - Worldwide Ric Flair vs Sting (03/27/88) - Clash of the Champions I Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (04/23/88) - Crockett Cup Ric Flair vs Lex Luger (07/10/88) - Great American Bash Ric Flair vs Lex Luger (09/10/88) - Philadelphia, handheld Ric Flair vs George South (11/12/88) - TBS TV Ric Flair vs Lex Luger (12/26/88) - Starrcade Ric Flair vs Rick Steiner (01/10/89) - Handheld Ric Flair vs Eddie Gilbert (February) - Main Event Multi-Man Matches Ric Flair & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger & Ole Anderson (02/19/88) - Cage match Ric Flair, Barry Windham & Arn Anderson vs Lex Luger, Steve Williams & Nikita Koloff (06/10/88) - Houston TV Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger, Sting & Barry Windham (04/03/88) - Main Event War Games (07/16/88) - Horsemen DVD Ric Flair & Barry Windham vs Dusty Rhodes & Bam Bam Bigelow (11/25/88) - Championship Wrestling (Sat morning) Ric Flair & Barry Windham vs Midnight Express (12/07/88) - Clash of the Champions IV Ric Flair & Barry Windham vs Ricky Steamboat & Eddie Gilbert (01/21/89) - TBS TV

I also want to add that there's a difference between working and performing. I know we've talked before about pre-planned layouts not really making much difference as wrestling fans. Most of the time, that's true, and something like Savage-Steamboat at Wrestlemania III is still a great match to watch today. But there are times when it does. WWE matches *feel* rehearsed and blocked out to me much of the time, even when they are well-executed, instead of feeling extemporaneous and reactive in the moment. I remember the story from 2003 about Hogan getting furious when he teamed with Angle and Lesnar at MSG on a Smackdown, and the fans were chanting for Hogan by name and neither guy would tag him in because that's not how the match was laid out in advance. To me, that's a negative reflection on both of them, and Hogan's anger was justified. Then there's Randy Orton, who has shown a few times how lost he gets when there's a legit injury or something goes wrong and the planned match can't be executed. There's that 2002 match where Kevin Nash tore his quad and Shawn Michaels had to actually come in the ring and call spots because no one else involved really knew what to do. There's very much a difference in wrestlers feeling out a crowd and doing what feels right that night and wrestlers doing what agents tell them to do. It seems like the best skills you can have now are memorization and athleticism, because you're just executing a vision that was decided ahead of time. I'm not mentioning that to be an absolutist, because there are times when it probably makes sense to lay things out in advance. I don't think the days of Flair-Steamboat going in the ring and working 55 minutes at Clash VI only knowing that they're going to do some type of disputed finish, but not having a specific idea ahead of time of what it will be are coming back. But I do know that even the great matches - the ones I like - often feel sterile.

To expand a little more on that, there was a time when a "Boring!" chant would have resulted in the wrestlers slowing things to almost a complete crawl until people got it out of their systems and then luring them back in. At a certain point, "Boring!" became a hint to pick up the pace. The wrestlers are the performers, but it's weird, like sometimes it's the fans that are working the wrestlers instead of the other way around.

Well, fans have also changed. Wrestlers used to condition fans to want what they were willing to give them. Now, it's more that fans demand from wrestlers what they want of all things possible, and the wrestlers are puppets who execute that. I think there's an art to the first type of thing and not so much for the second type of thing, although both have their positives and negatives. The best path is probably a happy medium. It would be interesting to pinpoint when exactly it was that wrestling fans became so entitled.

I think Kobashi-Akiyama is one of the more focused matches of the decade actually. Akiyama's work on Kobashi's leg is among the best body part work I've ever seen in any match. I can see someone watching it and being turned off by Kobashi's possibly too melodramatic selling, but that wasn't enough of a negative to put it below Kawada-Kobashi for me. The two matches are neck and neck, but I do think Kobashi-Akiyama is slightly more streamlined in terms of its focus.

Would you agree that the type of match a wrestler works to get noticed by WWE is a much different match than a match a wrestler works to get himself over as a big star in a way that helps sell tickets to a future show in that specific market? Current day is the former, and older day is the latter. I do think guys like Zayn and Bryan have showed up in WWE with a great understanding of how to get themselves over in very different places, so I think the comparison has some merit. But I do think there are also learning advantages to having pressure put on you to draw a big house in the same venue week-after-week, where you have to change up your act regularly to avoid being repetitive for the live crowd. And I'm not quite sure how to articulate this, but I think the pressure to put on good matches (which is definitely there) is a different kind of pressure than the pressure to keep people coming back. Maybe they are one and the same now. I don't know. Is the type of match that sells DVDs the same type of match that packs a venue? I don't really understand how the landscape works anymore and I freely admit that. I just know that I like strong heels that genuinely piss people off.

He had a match with Skip on RAW where he was suddenly the most over babyface in the company. It was surreal to watch - that crowd loved them some Marty Jannetty.

I'm not giving up, Parv. What I find interesting that didn't really strike me until posting this stuff is that Ric Flair had a GOAT case as early as 1985. So the Steamboat and Funk feuds which came later certainly strengthen his case, but I'm realizing going through this stuff that if Flair fell off the face of the earth at the end of 1985, he'd still be a solid top five contender based on output alone. I'm wondering if others see that, but for me it really puts his case in perspective.

And my point in bringing him up wasn't so much to drag all of that up as much as it was to point out that I may have a higher threshold just because I'm used to pretty heated boards. I realize not everyone shared that experience. So if you feel intimidated by someone, feel free to say something to me about it through PM. And if there's something specific you think I should do in response, don't hesitate to say that too. Whether we agree or not on that, we'll talk it out. If it's me doing the intimidating, though, I don't believe you.

I just want to add that the outright meanest poster here is an absolute doll compared to being online from 2002-2004 or so. JDW is a much nicer guy now, Chris Coey was around and people were generally far more hostile at the time. It went both ways too - they could be harsh in threads, but then someone would respond that they should drink bleach or die of AIDS. (The "blinded by medals" argument goes back to those days, for the record, which is what made me think of it.)

Davey Boy is an interesting candidate because his career has had so many distinct phases that I find it difficult to piece them all together. There's the Young David in Joint Promotions, the New Japan and All Japan junior, the power wrestler in the WWF tag team and the WWF/WCW headliner. I think it would be a mistake to dismiss him outright, even if my instinct tells me he has no chance.

Does anyone disagree with the mindset that if you have Jannetty on your list, Michaels has to be quite a bit higher?