Loss

This seems to have brought out a lot of hostility. While I consider myself pretty fair-minded about criticisms people throw at PWO, most of you also know I'm especially sensitive to any ideas of PWO as a monolith. "Many posters at PWO" may think something, but "PWO" doesn't think anything, and I do think there is a distinction. I think some of the points being raised are valid, and as rovert remembers, I backed him in that thread. I don't really like it at all when one poster tries to speak for the entire board, even if whatever is being said is positive and I agree with the message. But given the choice, I'd rather have that happen occasionally from someone who is generally respectful and enters debates earnestly than someone posting here to tell us how awful we are as a collective. And I say that as someone who thinks W2BTD is making some points I generally agree with in this thread, although I would probably apply some additional nuance to it. If anyone has a problem with something many people are saying, I only ask that you call them out by name instead of lumping everyone who posts here in the same group. Because even if you think it applies to the majority of us, there are still some to whom it does not, and it's not fair to them. There are very few people that I've argued about wrestling more with than Matt D. I consider Dylan and Will good friends and those are probably the only two guys I've argued with more than him! So the idea that we all agree about what good wrestling is and what bad wrestling is is something I can't accept, because I know it's not the case.

Great team. But promoters not being consistent with the "and" abbreviation bugs me. (Rock & Roll, Rock-N-Roll, Rock-n-Roll, Rock N Roll, Rock And Roll, Rock and Roll ...)

I clicked on that Savage interview solely to see if he could talk in any voice other than his Randy Savage voice. That I can't tell if he's doing his Randy Savage voice here intentionally or not is awesome.

I think the WWF was the better all around wrestling company through probably Survivor Series, even if this list doesn't reflect that. The stuff that didn't make this list from the WWF is far more solid than the stuff that didn't make this list from WCW. The WWF also peaked higher in the ring, I think. They trailed off at the end when they started doing live embalming and attempted suicides on television, though.

Was the stiffness unusually bad like he said?

Title reign number four is when Flair became more of a company champion instead of the traveling NWA champ. He still had moments where he did go outside of JCP to defend the title, but they were far more rare. Baba was using Flair less and the NWA was falling apart, so he's mostly champion of one company by this time. I will also point out something about this time period that is forgotten. Flair was wrestling on a broken neck for a few months. The break wasn't severe enough that he couldn't wrestle, but it was bad enough that he needed to wrestle mostly tag matches and not do a marathon of defenses over the Great American Bash like he did in 1986. Two whole weeks and no title (07/27/86-08/08/86) Ric Flair, Arn & Ole Anderson vs Rock & Roll Express & Magnum TA (08/03/86) - World Pro, Elimination Match Title reign #4 (08/09/86-09/25/87) Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (08/09/86) - Flair title win, not available in full but seems to be more angle-driven Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (11/27/86) - Starrcade Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (01/04/87) Ric Flair vs Barry Windham (01/13/87) - Impromptu match Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (01/17/87) - Supertowns on the Superstation Ric Flair vs Barry Windham (01/20/87) - Worldwide, TV time limit draw Ric Flair vs Barry Windham (04/11/87) - Crockett Cup. I suggest everyone watch the full handheld version, as the comm release doesn't do this match justice. Ric Flair vs Jimmy Garvin (07/11/87) - Great American Bash cage match Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (09/25/87) - Cage match from WWW. Flair loses the title. Tag matches & Multi-Mans Ric Flair & Tully Blanchard vs Dusty Rhodes & Nikita Koloff (11/08/86) Ric Flair, Arn & Ole Anderson vs Rock & Roll Express & Dusty Rhodes (Dec 1986) - Cage Match Ric Flair & Lex Luger vs Dusty Rhodes & Nikita Koloff (05/23/87) - TV Ric Flair & Lex Luger vs Ron & Jimmy Garvin (06/25/87) - TBS TV War Games (07/04/87) Four Horsemen vs Road Warriors, Dusty Rhodes & Nikita Koloff (07/10/87) - Handheld, Non-War Games 8-man tag War Games II (07/31/87, Miami) Momentary departures from JCP Ric Flair vs Steve Keirn (08/13/86, Florida) Ric Flair vs Lex Luger (09/01/86, Florida) - Battle of the Belts III, 2/3 falls, first Flair-Luger match Ric Flair vs Miguel Perez (09/20/86, Puerto Rico) Ric Flair vs Invader I (09/21/86, Puerto Rico) Ric Flair vs Yoshiaki Yatsu (03/07/87, AJPW) Ric Flair vs Tiger Mask (Misawa) (03/09/87, AJPW) - Not sure if this is available in full Ric Flair vs Jumbo Tsuruta (03/10/87, AJPW) Ric Flair vs Hiroshi Wajima (03/12/87, AJPW)

Done.

I used to love this guy, but I'm starting to think he was overrated. He's been in some great matches, but he also seems just a step above a lot of the sloppy indy guys of the time week-to-week. I don't think he adapted as well to WCW as Rey or even Psicosis, who showed a grasp of American-style psychology here and there. He won't make my top 100.

What are his best matches from 1992?

A lot more than the $30 million the other guy made in his best day ever.

I don't think everyone has them in their de facto number one spot, nor do I think he has to be in that spot on everybody's list. I do think his case gets taken for granted though, so I'm trying to go through it so people realize he had a case even before the Steamboat or Windham series ever happened, and that's usually where his hat is hung. If I wasn't trying to finish an e-book in this lifetime, I'd take the time to review each individual match.

He went to bed at 2:00 in the afternoon, though.

Yes, they both do. There's also one from Florida a few years earlier that I think I skipped when recapping his first reign because I couldn't confirm the date.

We have a lot of dwelling on the foot in this thread. I don't want to ignore the foot pain, but let's count our millions for a while.

If I win $50 million and get reunited with long lost friends before noon, but get accidentally run over by said long lost friend and hospitalized with a broken ankle at 4:00 in the afternoon, did I have the best day of my life?

Wow, Los Bucaneros are incredible - the Midnight Express of Mexico with all of their comedy and miscommunication spots mixed in with getting heat and showing off their athletic ability! I'm watching a match involving them in early 1990 and thought "Wow, they are similar to the Brazos", so I was pleasantly surprised that there's a Brazos vs Bucaneros match on the 80s lucha set.

For the record, I agree. I know sarcasm doesn't translate well to the Internet sometimes.

Don't worry, I can post that match. I'll do it in the next couple of days.

I don't think it is. I'll make it happen. I'll post here when it's online.

Yeah, "lurk and learn" is a catchphrase of sorts that used to get rolled out by know-it-all blowhards to talk down to other people and make themselves feel superior. It was just being rolled out as a joke.

Reign number three is the whopper for me. It was the longest run he had as NWA champ (2+ years) and while it's not something said very often about him, I thought for years that Ric Flair's 1985 was the best year a wrestler had ever had. I have seen far more stuff since and I'm not sure I still feel that way, but it is absolutely a year still in the conversation. This is where I truly think Flair becomes a GOAT contender - maybe not the runaway number one he'd eventually be considered by many, but by now, he is firmly in the conversation. I'll put my favorite matches in blue again. 16 days and no title (05/07/84 - 05/23/84) Flair does a few clean jobs in the window between title reigns. Ric Flair vs Michael Hayes (05/07/84, WCCW) Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (05/11/84, WCCW) Ric Flair vs Harley Race (05/22/84, AJPW) World title reign #3 (05/24/84 - 07/26/86) Winning and losing the title Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (05/24/84, AJPW) Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (07/26/86, JCP, Cage Match) All Japan Ric Flair vs Genichiro Tenryu (09/12/84) Ric Flair vs Riki Choshu (04/23/85) Ric Flair vs Jumbo Tsuruta (04/24/85) Ric Flair vs Jumbo Tsuruta (10/19/85) Ric Flair vs Rick Martel (10/21/85) Ric Flair & Rick Martel vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu (10/22/85) AWA Ric Flair vs Magnum TA (09/28/85) Ric Flair vs Nick Bockwinkel (01/16/86) Central States Ric Flair vs Harley Race (07/19/84) Florida Ric Flair vs Scott McGhee (10/28/84) Ric Flair vs Wahoo McDaniel (09/02/85) - Battle of the Belts I Ric Flair vs Barry Windham (02/14/86) - Battle of the Belts II Georgia Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (06/16/84) Hawaii Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (02/13/85) - 60 minute draw Memphis Ric Flair vs Koko Ware (11/18/85) Mid Atlantic Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat (05/29/84) - Big Meadowlands show Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (11/22/84) - Starrcade Ric Flair vs Magnum TA (06/15/85) - 10-minute challenge from TBS Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (07/06/85) - Great American Bash Ric Flair vs Nikita Koloff (08/11/85) - Omni Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (11/28/85) - Starrcade Ric Flair, Arn & Ole Anderson vs Magnum TA, Dusty Rhodes & Manny Fernandez (12/15/85) - TV Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (12/28/85) - TBS TV Ric Flair & Tully Blanchard vs Dusty Rhodes & Magnum TA (12/28/85) - Handheld Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (01/04/86) - Handheld Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (02/02/86) - Superstars on the Superstation Ric Flair & Arn Anderson vs Ron Garvin & Dusty Rhodes (02/22/86) - TV Ric Flair vs Magnum TA (02/23/86) - TV, World Pro Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (03/09/86) - Handheld, Matinee Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (03/09/86) - Handheld, Evening Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (03/30/86) - Handheld, Cage Match Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (04/04/86) - Handheld Ric Flair & Tully Blanchard vs Dusty Rhodes & Wahoo McDaniel (April 1986) - Handheld, Bullrope Match Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (04/12/86) - TBS TV Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (04/19/86) - Crockett Cup Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (05/10/86) - TV, First 15 minutes made air Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (05/24/86) Ric Flair vs Robert Gibson (05/25/86) - TV, World Pro I believe Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (06/07/86) - TV Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (June 1986) - Handheld, 35 minutes of 60 minute draw Ric Flair vs Road Warrior Hawk (07/01/86) - Bash Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (07/05/86) - Bash, Cage match from Horsemen DVD Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton (07/11/86) - Bash, Cage match from World Pro TV Mid South Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (08/24/84) Ric Flair vs Magnum TA (12/02/84) - Matinee Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (12/02/84) - Evening Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (04/27/85) Ric Flair vs Terry Taylor (04/28/85) Ric Flair vs Terry Taylor (05/03/85) - Houston Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (05/04/85) Ric Flair vs Terry Taylor (06/01/85) - Superdome Ric Flair vs Butch Reed (06/24/85) - Superdome Ric Flair vs Wahoo McDaniel (07/26/85) - Houston Ric Flair vs Dusty Rhodes (07/27/85) Ric Flair vs Butch Reed (08/10/85) - 60-minute draw Ric Flair vs Butch Reed (10/11/85) Ric Flair vs Butch Reed (11/06/85 taped) - TV Ric Flair vs Ted DiBiase (11/06/85 taped) - TV Ric Flair vs Jake Roberts (11/24/85) Ric Flair & Dick Slater vs Butch Reed & Jake Roberts (12/18/85) - TV Puerto Rico Ric Flair vs Hercules Ayala (09/21/85) Portland Ric Flair vs Billy Jack Haynes (10/20/84) Ric Flair vs Billy Jack Haynes (05/21/85) Ric Flair vs Magnum TA (09/24/85) PWUSA Ric Flair vs Harley Race (02/24/85) - Meadowlands show St. Louis Ric Flair vs Bruiser Brody (11/16/84) Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (01/25/85) Ric Flair vs Kevin Von Erich (05/12/85) World Class Ric Flair vs Chris Adams (11/09/84) Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (12/25/84) Ric Flair vs Terry Gordy (01/11/85) Ric Flair vs Kevin Von Erich (05/05/85) - Parade of Champions

The second title run is a shorter one. To me, the first run as NWA champ was great and the second run is too short to be as meaningful as some of the others, but still produced some good matches. The best is yet to come. I admit there is more stuff I haven't seen here than at other points in his career. My favorite matches of the ones I've seen are in blue. Time between reign number one and reign number two Ric Flair vs Greg Valentine (06/12/83, Mid Atlantic) Ric Flair vs Harley Race (08/19/83, Mid Atlantic) 2nd Title Reign (11/24/83 - 05/06/84) Around the Territories Ric Flair vs Harley Race (11/24/83, Mid Atlantic) - Flair wins title, Starrcade Ric Flair vs David Von Erich (12/25/83, WCCW) Ric Flair vs Dick Slater (01/21/84, Mid Atlantic) Ric Flair vs Mike Von Erich (01/30/84, WCCW) Ric Flair vs Chris Adams (02/03/84, WCCW) Ric Flair vs Bruiser Brody (03/10/84, St. Louis) Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat (03/17/84, Mid Atlantic) - 60-minute draw Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich (05/06/84, WCCW) - Flair drops title Tour of Japan Ric Flair vs Jumbo Tsuruta (12/10/83, AJPW) - Possibly clipped, I haven't seen this one. I think it was on AJ TV at the time, but never on Classics. But it's out there. Ric Flair vs Kabuki (12/12/83, AJPW)

Onita will be in my top 50, probably comfortably so. Some stuff worth checking out. A Matt D-style holistic look at his career would be fascinating, by the way. SINGLES Atsushi Onita vs Ryuma Go (04/30/89, Pioneer) Atsushi Onita vs Masaji Aoyagi (06/02/89, FMW) Atsushi Onita vs Masaji Aoyagi (10/06/89, FMW) Atsushi Onita vs Masanobu Kurisu (02/12/90, FMW) Atsushi Onita vs Mr. Pogo (11/05/90, FMW) Atsushi Onita vs Tarzan Goto (02/26/91, FMW) - My personal favorite singles match of Onita's career! Atsushi Onita vs Tarzan Goto (09/23/91, FMW) Atsushi Onita vs Terry Funk (05/05/93, FMW) Atsushi Onita vs Genichiro Tenryu (05/05/94, FMW) Atsushi Onita vs Great Sasuke (10/30/94, Michinoku Pro) Atsushi Onita vs Hayabusa (05/05/95, FMW) Atsushi Onita vs Masa Chono (04/10/99, NJPW) TAGS Atsushi Onita & Masa Fuchi vs Jerry Lawler & Bill Dundee (08/01/81, Memphis) Atsushi Onita & Masa Fuchi vs Ricky Morton & Eddie Gilbert (09/04/81, Memphis) Atsushi Onita & Dick Murdoch vs Masanobu Kurisu & Jos Le Duc (12/04/89, FMW) Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs Masanobu Kurisu & Dragon Master (04/01/90, FMW) - My favorite tag match of Onita's career! Atsushi Onita & Tarzan Goto vs Genichiro Tenryu & Ashura Hara (03/02/94, WAR) Atsushi Onita & Masato Tanaka vs Yukihiro Kanemura & Shoji Nakamaki (03/07/99, Onita Pro) MULTI-MANS Atsushi Onita, Masa Fuchi & Tojo Yamamoto vs Roy Rogers, Rick & Robert Gibson (09/05/81, Memphis) Atsushi Onita, Tarzan Goto & El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas, Horace Bouler & Tim Patterson (05/17/92, WWA) Atsushi Onita, Sambo Asako & Shigeo Okumura vs Genichiro Tenryu, Shoji Nakamaki & Ichiro Yaguchi (05/13/99, Onita Pro) Atsushi Onita, Sambo Asako & Shigeo Okumura vs Genichiro Tenryu, Nobutaka Araya & Shoji Nakamaki (06/20/99, WAR) Atsushi Onita, Shigeo Okumura, Sambo Asako & Mitsunobo Kikuzawa vs Genichiro Tenryu, Shoji Nakamaki, Ichiro Yaguchi & Hiroshi Ono (06/27/99, Onita Pro)

Are you a WON subscriber? The Savage bio after he passed away was excellent and covered a lot of the things you mentioned.

I apologize in advance for my son being an unofficial guest on this show early on. He does eventually take a nap after about 15 minutes.