Loss

If I was trying to release additional content in an order that I thought would appeal to the most people, I would probably go additional WWE footage, followed by WCW (with heavier focus on the JCP and Nitro eras), followed by ECW footage. Everything beyond that has niche appeal and it's probably not too critical. Of WWE footage, when they tap into old stuff, I think the Saturday Night's Main Events will be very popular, and so might the old episodes of Superstars and Prime Time Wrestling.

I think they did enough to establish that Flair's best chance was to wrestle. Garvin was going to take him easily if he let his pride get the best of him and fight. I don't know how much they needed to dwell on that to establish that, especially when they were wrestling a brawl anyway. We got a brief moment to say "Hey, if Flair wrestled, he may have a chance here", but Ron was more interested in brawling. He controlled the tone of the match. Flair couldn't help himself and got caught up in it because he wanted to give Garvin a receipt. But he could never keep any momentum in that direction. Garvin got in a few wrestling moves. Flair also got in a few chops and punches. It's not "no other offense in that match whatsoever". This isn't a big offensive display for Flair by any means, and I'm not going to pretend it is. I also won't pretend that it was a 50/50 match. But calling it a one-sided slaughter is an overstatement. Two different types of suplexes (belly to back and vertical), a kneedrop, a double stomp and his various strikes isn't a ton of offense, but it's more than one move. It's also probably the one Flair/Garvin match that I've never really heard receive a lot of praise in the first place, which makes me wonder why it's the one being focused on.

The new WWE network is the topic on everyone's lips so we thought we would jump on board the bandwagon and give our thoughts on the topic. Will is joined by his Wrestling With the Past co-host Charles and David Bixenspan from bleacherreport.com to discuss how the WWE network will affect old school fans, fans of the current product and other wrestling promotions. We'll discuss the difference in booking under the current PPV model and under a subscription model. All this and more in an opinion-filled 90 minutes. http://placetobenation.com/good-will-wrest...twork-reaction/

I'm the last person who anyone would expect to bump this horrific thread, but I needed to counter something Frankensteiner said in the Backlund thread and I didn't want to derail that one. You can't kill a thread that's already awful after all. I decided to finally watch this match because you've made this claim before and I suspected it to be farfetched. I was glad to watch and see that I was right. Here's some play-by-play. They trade chops to start after a lockup. Then Flair bumps off of a shoulderblock and eats a second chop before bailing to the outside. When they lock up again, Garvin takes over with a side headlock. Flair grabs his leg to attempt a counter but thinks better of it, backing Garvin into the corner and giving him three chops before eating about ten in retaliation and kicking out of a pin attempt at one. Now, Flair is pissed and Garvin won't back down. He briefly sells a knucklelock from Garvin before backing him in the corner and starting another exchange of chop trades, which Garvin also wins. Tempers flare and they start shoving each other before Garvin grabs Flair by the nose and gouges his face. Flair pulls the referee between them to give himself a little space. They lock up once again and Flair catches him with a knee before they trade chops once again. Again, Garvin wins the exchange. Then Flair eats a back bodydrop and Garvin applies a standing hammerlock and stomps Flair's arm. When Flair tries to get up, Garvin slaps him across the face. Flair gets up again and starts a slugfest, but once again gets the worst of it. Back in the ring, Garvin throws a few more chops and throws Flair shoulder first into the turnbuckle before doing a step over armbar with a twist. Flair counters this with a knee to the back, throws some hard strikes and tosses Garvin out of the ring. Garvin runs back in and they get into another slugfest. Again, Flair comes out on the losing end of this and takes a bump over the top to the outside. Back in the ring once again, Garvin locks in a sleeperhold. Flair ends up countering that with a belly-to-back suplex and does a double stomp on Garvin's chest. He then does a vertical suplex and gets a two count before hitting a kneedrop, strutting and covering Garvin again. But he's his own worst enemy. He's beating Garvin by out wrestling him, but mounts him and tries to choke him out, which just inspires a Garvin comeback of stiff punches. They trade chops and punches again. Garvin comes out on the winning end of that, and by this point, they've established that Flair can keep the momentum if they wrestle, but Garvin is going to win a slugfest. It's in Flair's best interest to just wrestle the guy, but his pride is in the way, and Garvin keeps turning the match into a fight. Flair takes a backwards bump into the corner and Flair tries going for another suplex, but this time Garvin reverses it. They do the headlock -> head scissors -> bridge up sequence which ends in the first of a few really close pitfalls. Garvin slugs him, but Flair takes him off of his feet and they end up gouging and choking and striking each other in the corner. Garvin comes out ahead there yet again, but Flair isn't backing down. Flair tries coming off the top, but Garvin punches him in the stomach in a great looking spot and gets another close fall. Flair gets a close two count of his own and yells at the ref, and in the process, the ref falls outside the ring, which gives Garvin a visual fall over Flair with no ref to count. Hands of Stone does it again. The referee returns to action before Flair catches Garvin with a high knee and gets the pin. Garvin had his foot on the rope but the ref didn't see. I won't argue that Flair didn't put Garvin over strong here. The two were about to go around the horn and they got over the idea that Garvin could beat Flair. They did this through lots of toe-to-toe exchanges (which Garvin won) and giving Garvin some visual falls. But the idea that Garvin squashed him is ridiculous, and your description of how much offense Flair got is simply untrue.

Buddy Rose vs Rick Martel (PNW 08/09/80) I watch how Rose's wig has taken a beating at this point and there's no way Matt Borne didn't draw some Doink influence from Buddy Rose during this time period. He really does have the face of a tragic and demented clown. Now, to the match. I think this was the best of the series. Martel's improvement from April is palpable, and where that match was Rose taking on an eager challenger, this was Rose facing a true peer. This really works as a series because of Martel's increased maturity from match to match. That's not really something the announcer states overtly, although I wish he did because I suspect that it's at least part of what they were going for. The third fall is when this goes from great to epic, with Buddy breaking out the boxing standoff to give both this a true title fight feel and rope Martel into distracting nonsense so he can reclaim the match. Martel's selling of Buddy's rib attack is off the charts and his majorly fired up comeback is one of the highlights of wrestling in 1980, much less the match. The back and forth of the final few minutes has the drama at a fever pitch, and Martel finishes the job with same atomic drop Buddy previously used to put him away. Fabulous match. This had to be the best in-ring feud going in the U.S. in 1980. I would be shocked if it wasn't. This is hurt a little because of the small clip in the middle where I suspect Buddy took the second fall. But that's miniscule. This match is a classic.

Jerry has watched that match and did a podcast covering it.

See it now. Thanks!

Actually, that appears to be from April 26, not August 9th. I've already watched that one.

Thank you!

Sammy Lee vs Sid Cooper (Joint Promotions 10/08/80) For whatever we want to say about Sayama, his charisma and aura is undeniable. This is not really a good match, but it reminds me of the New Japan Tiger Mask matches as presented by Joint Promotions. It's quick with a guy doing a superman gimmick wowing the crowd and a game opponent who knows how to make him look good. But Sayama would have been completely outclassed going 30+ minutes against a Johnny Saint or Steve Grey type, which is probably why he didn't. He strikes me as selfish and one dimensional in this - the only thing he's good at is making himself look good.

Buddy Rose vs Roddy Piper (PNW 09/13/80) Loser Leaves Town! This is a sprint by Portland standards. Rose's Piper mocking before the match starts is priceless. Rose would love to get down to business and wrestle the match like the sportsman he is, but the crowd won't leave him alone. How rude of them! Bloody brawl with Rose beating the hell out of poor Roddy in the second fall, which is when this match really gets cooking. This is the rare case of a Portland match that didn't get enough time. I think the skeleton of something really good was here, but it needed a little more time to play out. I liked it, but it could have been so much more. Buddy with another awesome heel performance though, and check out the wild post-match brawl. Bye Bye Buddy.

Which Rose/Martel match is from 8/9/80? I'm assuming it's on YouTube, but not all of them are dated. Can someone point me to it?

Ringo Rigby vs Johnny South (Joint Promotions 08/05/80) Elbows and knees and shins, oh my! This had some awesome detail work and subtle twists on basic moves. Johnny South looks like Regal's spiritual predecessor as a result. This starts as a gentleman's match and then really gets interesting when tempers flare to close out Round 3. By Round 4, they are trading some wild forearms and assorted strikes. Because the action is a little bit slower than that of their peers at times, this match required a little more patience from me than some of the other British stuff. But when I realized what they were going for in the big picture and how they achieved it, that patience was paid off in spades. I also liked how they played off the rounds here, as Rigby carried the lead for most of this match, which was a partial source of South's frustration but also gave them an overarching theme in which they could sink their teeth. The final fall is anyone's to win and Rigby tries a desperate comeback but keeps falling prey to South's big strikes before just barely sneaking out a win. Most of the wrestling in this is pretty basic (with a few notable exceptions in the early stages), but the fire and attitude of the closing stretch takes it to the next level.

I meant that Dustin vs Buck is more about the intensity and hate while the tag brawl is more about weapons. Dustin vs Buck was more like Memphis or Mid South, while the tag was more like an FMW brawl. I think fans popped more for the weapons shots in the tag and more for the retribution spots in the singles match. Does that make sense? And yeah, Vader matches during this time were ostensibly Vader/Race handicap matches. Race took great bumps and probably added to the matches more than he didn't, so I don't fault him too much. But Vader was good enough without Race working so hard.

I totally agree on the Chono noises, which are terribly distracting. I don't remember Hase being a noisy wrestler though.

Sounds like Ryback was just having a little fun, but I don't see anything that's worthy of punishment here. In fact, he may have given them a future storyline for Total Divas.

Roddy Piper & Rick Martel vs Buddy Rose & Ed Wiskowski (PNW 08/02/80) Outstanding match. I like Piper and Martel as the Northwest version of Steamboat and Youngblood. The Rick & Rod Express? I tend to think best of three falls matches are incompatible with the tag formula for a variety of reasons, some of which we see here. Too much Heel in Peril, too many times the babyface has to fight back from underneath and succumb again, etc. So there are structural problems I have with this. But I'd still call this pretty damned great in spite of that. This is about 30 minutes of action with the first 15+ minutes as mostly Heel in Peril, and I think because of all the ways they have to find to fill time, this went far too long. But what you're seeing is four guys overcoming a match structure that just doesn't lend itself to something good and producing something great in spite of it. The heel aggression is off the charts and Piper and Martel are such a fun and charismatic babyface team that it's almost enough to overlook all of that. Buddy is as good as anyone with the last name Anderson at cutting off the ring and putting the hurt on a sympathetic babyface. And if they are in a match where filling time is important, they might as well have plenty of things at their disposal to keep things interesting, which the heel team certainly does. I mean, that is some awesome and in some ways inventive back work, and Buddy's bumping really is a sight to behold. There's a moment in the third fall when the perilous Roddy Piper knocks him off the apron and it's almost like he falls into the abyss because he just drops completely out of sight, and him getting a receipt a few minutes later on Piper by throwing him out of the ring is even better. My only real problem with this is that it's too much of a good thing. Beyond that, it has me really excited for the next Rose vs Martel match, just because by this point, Martel is very good in the ring.

Charly Verhulst vs Mile Zrno (CWA 07/12/80) This didn't quite come together for me as a match (I think because it felt incomplete even though it wasn't) but it was cool to see these two rip up the mat for 15 minutes.

Buddy Rose vs Butch Miller (PNW 06/07/80) Miller is very very average, but Buddy Rose is tremendous in this match. He takes great exaggerated bumps off of such lame offense. There is still a lot of drama surrounding the mask. Rose has some terrific offense including a really nice jumping spin elbow off the ropes. He also shows a real mean streak here. The Martel matches had better wrestling but this was a grittier match. Rose eating a clean pinfall then getting the win with his feet on the ropes in the second fall nicely demonstrates that heel credibility isn't just attained through good booking. The people get to see him take his licks for sure, but he also looks like a real threat, both because of his attitude and skill. Good match!

Can't believe I missed this for menu music. I will make it up to all of you, I promise!

It's kind of the opposite of the saying -- penny foolish and dollar wise.

You described the gimmick for the Steiners and no one praises them as much as Angle. What's the difference?

Buddy Rose vs Rick Martel (PNW 05/17/80) This was superb. My inclination at first was to call this Portland's version of Flair vs Steamboat in terms of how it's worked, but that's not what this is. It's really good, and Rose does resemble Flair in some ways while Martel resembles Steamboat. But it's a different type of match. Rose is mean and crafty in a way that's all his own. I love how credibly he presents himself in this match, which seems like it might be a slightly uphill battle with the mask and wig. Martel also looks much better than he did in their previous match -- keeping the same fire, but looking much more seasoned. The rana was a big highspot by 1980 standards and got a nice pop. I also thought the fall finishes were well done here because they were so decisive. Now that I understand the norms of the time period, I even like the sleeper revival crap. Buddy also has at least a half dozen ways to sell a punch. I counted 7 different ways he took strikes in this match and probably missed some. The DQ finish got great heat and didn't bother me too much because we got over 20 minutes of great wrestling before that.

Was Rip Rogers working there at the time? I'm just curious how he would know.

How do you know which it is?