Loss

Yes, this was excellent. In fact, more than anything at Wrestle Kingdom, this put a smile on my face and made me feel like my attempt to stay on top of wrestling in 2014 isn't going to be a pure exercise in frustration. Harper and Rowan are excellent in the ring, both in portraying the gimmick and as working heels. They also have some really cool unique offense that matches who they are as performers. I'm a huge fan. Cody is not a natural like Goldust, but he is working hard and is athletically good. But it's all in the little things. This match had such great build to the hot tag, but Cody's selling being even more over the top could have taken it to another level. I wish we could have gotten a string of Goldust house cleaning after the hot tag, as that's what I was waiting for. But the finish was a cool one and I really enjoyed this all the same.

Maybe the sky would fall if WWE just let him win his biggest matches most of the time and said nice things about him on commentary and as part of his feuds.

But even judged on the standards of good cheating and outside interference it had its flaws. Positioning the referee properly is sort of attempted, but not really done all that well.

I want to watch this missed the show. If anyone knows a way I can see it, please send me a PM.

Just like outside interference. In plain sight of the referee, no less.

I think it's premature to call it a heel turn. I don't really know what I think yet, but after the next RAW I should have a good idea.

I'll start this out by clarifying for those who don't know that this is the first New Japan show I have watched since the critical resurgence that started a few years back. I think the newest New Japan match I've seen is probably a Giant Bernard match from 2006 and even then, that was in isolation and not something I remember all that much. Before that, I remember catching the Tokyo Dome shows in 1999 and 2000 in passing, but I don't really remember details. I've grown to be a very big fan of New Japan Pro Wrestling as I've watched 90s yearbooks. While I don't think the heavyweights were at the level of their All Japan counterparts, I do think they were excellent workers and on the right night, they were capable of producing something special. I liked the simplicity and stiffness of New Japan main events. I loved Choshu's booking. So this is a promotion I have an affection for. That's not to say that I expected this to be a continuation of that lineage. Wrestling in Japan has been in shambles for a long time, and it's not like there's much that the old New Japan gave the new New Japan. And that's not necessarily a bad thing on its own. While I think Riki Choshu was the greatest booker of all time and was a huge fan of guys like Hashimoto, Liger and Otani, I realize that times change and that wrestling does too. A few years ago, I started hearing buzz that New Japan was resurgent. A name I saw thrown around frequently was Hiroshi Tanahashi. Dave Meltzer seemed to love him. A lot of guys in our circle didn't. And that's fairly typical - we've seen the same thing happen with A.J. Styles, post-comeback Shawn Michaels and Kurt Angle, among others. There were some guys that our circle was divided on that Dave loved, like KENTA and Naomichi Marufuji. Then there are those that everyone seemed to love, like Bryan Danielson and prime Samoa Joe. The Tanahashi criticism within our circle wasn't really enough for me to dismiss New Japan without thought. I knew I'd get to it eventually and form my own opinion. I had a general idea that Dylan didn't care for New Japan as much as most, and that S.L.L. found it difficult to get Tanahashi fans to talk about what they liked about him. That was pretty much all I knew. I tried to avoid as much of the discussion as possible because I didn't want it to affect my opinion. People who know me know I have all sorts of problems with modern day wrestling. But at the same time, I don't long for yesteryear. I want every wrestling promotion to take chances, create new stars and deliver in the ring. Perhaps I care too much about things that aren't a priority in wrestling anymore, like good booking and wrestling that generally makes sense and can compel me to suspend my disbelief. But I know what I like. That said, I felt like I hadn't been completely fair to some stuff that has happened in modern times. I would tune into a random episode of RAW, see three segments that I hated, and decide that modern WWE sucked, and turn the TV off for the night. I tried to watch 2011 wrestling a little while back and had to stop because I saw so many things in the in-ring style that irritated me as a wrestling fan. I thought maybe time had passed me by, but I hoped it hadn't. I want to like new wrestling, because we all benefit from more wrestling being out there that's good and worth watching. So the excitement about New Japan gave me hope. I entered this show not really knowing much about most of the roster, unless they are vets who worked in the 90s or before. I didn't know what direction they were taking or how any of the major feuds are progressing. In fact, some of the thoughts I post on matches are going to be oddly written because I can't even fully distinguish participants in some of the matches. I had all these thoughts written about what I thought was a Tanahashi vs Okada match in the semi-main spot, not realizing that was Naito vs Okada. I never would have thought that Tanahashi's bizarre hairstyle would be popular enough to be copied by someone else. So here are the opinions of a longtime wrestling fan and longtime Old New Japan Pro Wrestling fan who's a total novice when it comes to New New Japan Pro Wrestling. I plan on following the promotion in the coming year, and I might look back at this thread and be embarrassed by some of the things I wrote here. Who knows? But this is my first impression for whatever that's worth. Hiroyoshi Tenzan, Tomoaki Honma, Captain New Japan & BUSHI vs Manabu Nakanishi, Super Strong Machine, Jushin Thunder Liger & Yohei Komatsu What? Super Strong Machine? I'm guessing that's not Junji Hirata. I should have looked at match participants as I was watching the show instead of waiting until after it was over. I also didn't recognize that Nakanishi was in this match. Of course I recognized Liger. That outfit was awfully clever because he can probably see his 50th birthday from his house at this point, yet he doesn't physically look like he's aged at all. We should all wear Liger outfits. Tenzan looked pretty good too. It may have just been the nostalgia talking, but I liked this match. There were probably a few too many bodies in the ring, to the point where it was difficult to make anyone stand out in a meaningful way. But the match was laid out well, had good action and involved the crowd. I don't know who the blond highspot kid was but he impressed me. I'd go ***1/4 on this. We're off to a good start! That's the pre-show match, and even the pre-show match was very good. The Young Bucks vs KUSHIDA & Alex Shelly vs TAKA Michinoku & Taichi vs Rocky Romero & Alex Koslov I didn't really connect with this at all. I couldn't figure out if some of these spots were supposed to be played for comedy or if they were supposed to be cool double team spots. This also felt too "American" from what I want from Japanese wrestling, which is a recurring theme throughout the night. The multi-man suplex spot caused a part of me to die. Was that invented in this match? Is that something that has been copied? If so, I'm not sure I can live anymore. This was overly cute and the Young Bucks seem like Nise Hardy Boys. This sucked. It was cool to see Taka, but he was doing commentary during the match and he's not The Rock and this is not an American show, so fuck that. Karl Anderson & DOC Gallows vs Lance Archer & Davey Boy Smith Jr. Did you know that Dave once claimed that the reason the 15 years experience/35 years of age rule for the WON HOF has a caveat of "major league" experience was because Harry Smith started wrestling at 14 years old and he didn't want him getting in too soon? I don't think you have to worry about that happening, Dave. We can all hold off a while before rushing to vote Davey Boy Smith Jr. into the Hall of Fame. Yeah, this also sucked. Everyone wrestled like Adam Bomb -- tall with long hair doing awkward throws from a full nelson position. Everyone throws forearms because not a one of them have a clue how to throw a good working punch. Every double team move seemed destined to happen from the same contrived headlock on teammate one while headscissoring teammate two position. Who is the dude wrestling like indy Undertaker doing the chokeslam teases and rope walking? Talk about bush league. Derivative wrestling featuring a lot of guys with execution problems. Satoshi Kojima vs Rob Conway Let's put a stereotypical one dimensional American gimmick out there! Wow, Rob Conway sucks. I'm happy that he's found a promotion where he can take all the steroids he wants without being drug tested, but he doesn't even do the adonis gimmick all that well. He reminds me of a lesser version of 1980-81 Kevin Sullivan. At least Sullivan was good at fundamentals and cutting a decent pace between all the stalling and posing. This had bad execution on the forearms to the chest and pitiful acting. I didn't buy for a second that Conway was pissed at Kojima's kickouts. He was just acting. And there seems to be no effort to protect moves from match to match, as I've seen far too many Ace Crushers on this card. This has the worst of ECW with pointless seconds surrounding the ring. When did Japan become all about outside interference? I will give them credit for doing a well-executed finish that popped the crowd, but I am not understanding why New Japan is so American style in the ring work. Daniel & Rolles Gracie vs Kazushi Sakuraba & Yuji Nagata Well this was crap. Are the Gracies supposed to be lame fake shooters that can't throw strikes? Are they supposed to be cheating shooters? Cowardly shooters? I don't get it. Sakuraba and Nagata looked just fine here, but wow the Gracies were bad. Great Muta & Tori Yano vs Minoru Suzuki & Shelton Benjamin Shelton loves to swear at everyone. I like his attempts at aggression and developing a personality, but I don't really buy it. That said, I think he could have another U.S. run. Gotta give Muto credit for having nine lives and continuously finding ways to keep reinventing himself through the years. Overbooked to shit and again I have to ask when things got this way in Japan. The appeal of Japanese wrestling for me was never that I didn't like promos and angles, but more that the American promotions screwed them up more often than not, and at least when you watched the Japanese promotions, that stuff wouldn't be in the way and you could just focus on the matches. That's not at all the case on this show. I don't know yet if that's good or bad, but it's different and it makes New Japan not feel as different from WWE as it should. Togi Makabe vs King Fale This was the best match since the opener. Still, it felt like a lesser version of Bret Hart vs Diesel from Survivor Series in '95. The tall guy has a very 90s Diesel offense. This is decent, but a lack of expressive selling kept it from being better. Hirooki Goto vs Katsuyori Shibata This is a solid match but there are some quirks. Again, not a fan of guys who won't learn to throw good punches and use forearms as a crutch, but these guys are interesting in that they ball up their fists to tease punches, then sneak in a forearm instead. You aren't fooling anyone if that's what you think. Good selling and stiff moves, but what is popping up after suplexes and lariats supposed to do except bury those moves as anything that matters? Where these guys deserve credit is that this is really wrestled like two guys who know their audience really well. They are in command of them and that's cool. This worked best when it was simple. When they got too fancy with the aforementioned popping up and the weird snapmare on the knee thing that looks horribly botched but I don't think is, the match suffers. Is this what passes for a MOTYC nowadays? I had this feeling this will be a loved match when I was watching it even though I'm not someone who will love it. Prince Devitt vs Kota Ibushi I hated this more than anything on the show. This didn't have a chance because of all of the interference. What has happened in wrestling when you are more likely to watch a WWE match that has no outside interference than a New Japan one? This is nothing but cheap heat. One guy making a comeback against this many - and never seeming all that concerned about the odds facing him - is preposterous. It shows how much they added to the match when the heels getting ejected from ringside didn't even get a pop. This match was some better after that, but even then, it was really empty wrestling - just highspots and kickouts. Do any moves mean more than others? Kazuchika Okada vs Tetsuya Naito Then this match happened. And all was well in the universe. I absolutely loved everything about this match. Neither of these guys feels like a torchbearer, as the New Japan top guys are often described. But this match is wrestled in the spirit of wrestling that I do enjoy - a nice slow build with good offense and a big climax. I'm sure if I tried really hard I could poke holes in this match, but what would be the point? This was better than anything else going on in wrestling today that I'm aware of, and it put a smile on my face. Early MOTYC. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Shinsuke Nakamura Tanahashi's porcupine hairstyle is distracting. I do think this was good, and I really dug Nakamura's offense. But this felt anticlimactic after the last match and never really kicked into second gear. I'm not sure that was all their fault. They probably would have benefitted from a buffer match. *** I'm going to keep watching New Japan and I realize that it's quite possible my opinion will turn around as I gain understanding of context and appreciation for some of the characters, and also that some of what I wrote will seem silly a few months from now. But aside from Naito vs Okada, nothing on this show felt worth my time.

The problem is that if there is an established opinion that is one way or the other, oftentimes if you disagree you're seen as just aiming to be different so you stand out. I'm still going to post what I think of the show, but I am really hoping to avoid that.

I'm five matches in on Wrestle Kingdom and plan on posting my thoughts, but I'm worried about how negative they are so far. Please don't think I just wanted to hate watch this, people. I actually entered with an open mind. I still have high hopes for the rest of the show and I'm really hoping for a turnaround in quality.

It's funny that that's the perception because I think Dave is too kind to modern WWE and not nearly critical enough.

Just wanted to post here because my plan is to crowdsource the match listing for the addendum as much as possible. If you've already listed something in the other threads, you don't have to list it here again. But the normal draft work I do for a set hidden from view, I'm going to use this thread to do in plain sight this time around to ensure that nothing is missed.

After getting over being pissed off at you, I'll have to admit it's well played.

I think those are valid points. Someone also recently mentioned that a membership will soon be more expensive than the WWE Network, and this is right after prices were raised by $1 per month.

I echo the sentiments above. This was an excellent interview within the timeframe you had. We need to figure out a way to get you to sit down with someone for a few hours.

Thanks guys. It's a labor of love and I'm happy to do it.

No one is pretending that those crimes aren't as bad. "Not the same thing" means "not the same thing as a PR issue to the company". They feel the need to issue a Benoit disclaimer because it's something people actually know about that got a ton of mainstream coverage. Most people don't know that Jimmy Snuka is a murderer, he was never convicted and there has been no media circus which they need to preemptively strike. I don't look at it as a moral decision. I look at it as a business decision. Yet it's being debated as a moral decision, which would be an entirely separate issue.

When news hits the Internet, it usually gets reworded and I find that sometimes the meaning is lost. The Undertaker-Daniel Bryan stuff is not *quite* how it was written in the WON, as one example. Also, access to the archive of WONs is awesome, and I like being able to search Dave's message board posts.

Not disputing, but I'm just curious - on what tape is it available in full?

Picking up where we left off: http://placetobenation.com/wrestling-with-...tling-part-two/

Yes. Wrestling not only has double standards, it has triple standards and quadruple standards.

Great list! Enjoyed your thoughts and looking forward to seeing you go through other years.

Whether I see it as an upper tier match for the set remains to be seen, but I absolutely thought it was among the best stuff to happen in 1981. Of course, the NWA World Champion style and lucha title match style are my two favorite types of wrestling matches to watch.

It's more of a business decision to not have outraged parents (those who pay for WWE footage but whose children watch it) upset that their children are watching his matches while the announcers talk about how great he is.

People were criticizing them when they did that too. That's my point. They can't make everyone happy no matter what they do.

WWE has worked hard to clean up their image post-Benoit (to mixed results). Benoit is a babyface for a large part of his WWE run. They need to make clear when airing Benoit footage that they aren't celebrating or glorifying him, and that any compliments of his character that were part of worked storyline aren't a reflection of how the company feels about him. The issue is bigger than short-sighted wrestling fans who just want to see shows in full.