Loss

The flipside is that there's a non-zero chance that they might just dump whole territories on demand, which would give, let's say Kevin, a chance to see some AWA he's never even seen before, just like that. I realize that's a bit of a longshot right now but it's at least possible. Allow me to say something pretentious, which is that this could lead to a mini-renaissance at message boards like this one. If all the footage owned by WWE is eventually at our disposal, I see interactive threads becoming a possibility. Think Wrestling Message Boards 2.0. I don't think that's likely to happen, but it very well might. WWE may even find it benefits them to do so, as they could do all sorts of interesting reports and analysis on the most watched promotions, eras and performers based on the demographics of the viewer, which could result in some really targeted marketing campaigns. The potential is there for this to be a game changer. Whether it becomes one or not remains to be seen.

The film director analogies have taken this thread too far off course. Can we go back to wrestlers and their opinions of each other?

As much as I love Lawler, I also understand why he isn't everyone's cup of tea, and I don't think some of the criticisms levied against him are without merit.

Is Bob Orton even the best Juventud Guerrera traveling partner?

I always thought for the finish to this main event that if they were going to do it, they needed to have some balls and actually see it through. The Horsemen getting away with the same angle at Havoc leading to weeks of TV intrigue *might* have worked.

Race praises Luger as a worker ... because Luger quit in protest when they fired Race, until WCW changed their minds and brought Race back. Race thinks HHH criticism is overplayed ... because HHH has been to his house for barbecues and is really nice.

Do you cross-check me? Just curious.

Is Havoc the first WCW show where we really saw the benefits of having the giant ramp for highspots? Eaton's leg drop from the top rope to the ramp is one of my favorite highspots of all time.

See this thread.

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Nothing against Big Show or Kane, but people changing channels and catching Big Show and Kane still in featured roles is the type of thing that turns people off. I like Big Show as a performer, but he has no business being pushed in main events at this point. It has nothing to do with talent and everything to do with being stale and in the mix for way too long.

He went through a lot of his old posts and replaced the original content with "fuck off" or something equally charming.

I've already requested that we drop the "respecting the business" talk. He refused to job to Luger in '90 because he promised Sting he would put him over when he returned and that no matter what kind of pressure was on him, the belt wasn't moving. As a result of this, he ended up in several blow-ups with Herd and was fired as head booker. Yes, he showed up on the competition's TV with the belt ... because he was entitled to have his deposit refunded and Herd refused to give him that back. You've portrayed it twice now as Flair just deciding to high-tail it with the WCW World title, when that's not quite what happened. This was a case of Flair pulling every trump card he had to prolong his time on top -- my contract requires written notice at least 24 hours in advance of being asked to drop the title, I will give you the belt but I want my deposit back, I will put over Luger but not if you don't extend my contract, etc. So yes, he absolutely played the game and we can throw some criticism his way for that. But I think saying Flair had a problem with putting over Luger is framing it incorrectly. Ric Flair was paranoid that his big money contracts and time working on top were over for good because he thought Jim Herd was out to ruin his career. The only leverage he had was dropping the title and putting over Luger. So he milked it for everything he could get out of it. Of course, there's ego involved, but when Flair agreed to be the Black Scorpion as long as he got the belt back, I think that was Flair's way of maneuvering himself back to the belt. I think he felt like as long as he had the belt, they were limited in how much they could do to him. The moment he dropped it, they would see him as expendable. Even if you look at the Bischoff days and Halloween Havoc '94, that's a common thread with Flair's apprehension about doing certain jobs. He's afraid he'll do it and then be put out to pasture.

Flair agreed to put over Luger at the Bash as long as his contract was extended. Herd ended up getting mad at Flair during the back and forth over that and firing him. It was his decision to fire Flair without him dropping the title. Again, Flair is not blameless there, but the way you framed it isn't quite accurate either.

In an effort to steer this away from where it's going, can we go back to Wrestle War '90 talk, please? Thanks.

I think in the end, Flair thought if he put over Luger when they wanted him to, because Herd had it out for him so much, the promotion would then see him as expendable and either cut his pay when his contract was up for renewal or not re-sign him. Doing the big job was his bargaining chip, so he milked it for everything he could. The difference between Flair and Hogan is that the powers-that-be were never out to screw Hogan, decrease his value, phase him down or pay him less when he was asked to do a job. It's easy to forget because he was around and heavily featured at times for the next nearly 20 years, but the "too old" talk started almost immediately after Turner bought the company, and there were people who wanted to phase him out even as he was having his artistic peaks with Steamboat and Funk.

Flair was never asked to lose to Luger in 1988, so it's unfair to say he "should have" or that he "refused". Flair is hardly a saint, and I won't call him that. He should have put over Luger and had chances to do so. Those chances often coincided with him losing his spot as a booker, or renegotiating a contract or a variety of other things, though.

I don't think Flair resented Luger. I think he feared for his own spot, probably for good reason since Herd was insistent on phasing him down and even tried to cut his pay a few times. The real problem was with Jim Herd, and I think both Flair and Herd handled themselves poorly there. Flair built Sting up through his booking in 1989 and that was going to be the guy he dropped the title to -- not Luger. He promised Sting he would not drop the belt while he was out injured and managed to keep that promise, but he paid a heavy political price for it. He was no longer the head booker, Herd no longer wanted to push him as the top star and he lost whatever clout he may have still had. I really don't think Flair had a problem with Luger. I think circumstances just got in the way every time. I'm not saying that to excuse Flair, but I'm saying I think the issue was always something else every time he was asked to do the honors, more so than not wanting to pass the torch to Lex. Flair's track record on putting people over is pretty solid, and he has spoken about Luger as someone who he enjoyed working with and thought they had great matches.

Was Eddy really over in New Japan?

It's never crossed my mind, and probably never will.

Flair's hairstyle changed numerous times in 1990. The short hair didn't come until December when he cut it off to fit under the Black Scorpion mask, but Jim Herd had been pushing for Flair to change his look for a while before that.

Nothing was really planned out that far, so who knows? On an interesting side note, Flair vs Luger was going to be a non-title hair vs hair match at one point so that Luger could get his win and get credit for Flair's new hairstyle, even if Sting would be the one to take the title from him. Flair didn't really trust Jim Herd at the time, so that never happened.

I don't really consider getting over in more places reflective of versatility. El Dandy displayed an amazing versatility just within lucha libre.