Loss

I think there's an interesting discussion to be had about why bumping isn't too emphasized in the Japanese style, and why Japanese crowds don't typically pop for bumps in Japan the way they do in the States.

HTM should have had a ringside chef that smeared peanut butter and bananas all over people.

WWE is able to do a lot of this off of the fumes of the Monday Night Wars, when Monday night wrestling felt like an event. I think WWE encouraging their fans to use social media to record video of themselves enjoying RAW with the possibility of a brief clip airing on TV isn't a bad idea. It added a lot to the aura of Nitro in the late 90s. That's what Dave doesn't get about them pushing social media -- they aren't going to see hard indicators of improved ratings or buyrates or anything like that, but it can add to the perception that RAW in real time is an event, which in turn makes the show seem like more of a commodity, which in turn ideally increases the money they can make off of TV rights fees.

Yes, Sherri stood out in a huge positive way as a performer in 1991 WWF. I hope she got a huge payoff for Wrestlemania VII, because she was possibly the hardest worker on a really good show -- building heat, taking bumps, changing clothes and seamlessly going from program to program.

Tito Santana is loved on this board. Kofi Kingston is hated. Slasher is saying that if you dropped 2013 Kofi into 1985 WWF, he'd be over bigger than Tito in the same position. Not that surprising it got heated a little bit. I actually meant on Slasher's side.

Also, there are a few feuds you want to see almost everything from: - Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin - Garvin could be argued as Flair's best opponent - even if he never really has been argued as his best opponent - and I'm a huge fan of this series. Really stiff and different from most Flair matches. - Ric Flair vs Lex Luger - The matches in this series continuously get better as Luger improves as a worker. This is really the closest to a Japanese-style years long title chase I've seen in American booking, even if the expected payoff is missing from the end. - Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat - The Chi-Town/Clash/Wrestle War trilogy is widely considered the best series of matches in the history of American wrestling. Your milage may vary, but at the least, you'll most likely love all of the matches. - Ric Flair vs Terry Funk - Total blood feud that delivers both in the ring and in the angles. - Ric Flair vs Barry Windham - Not much in terms of booking, but they had some terrific matches against each other, with the Worldwide match in January of 1987 being the biggest standout. - Ric Flair vs Ricky Morton - Flair working a feud against an undersized tag team wrestler and getting him over as a credible challenger is fun to watch. Some great angles that paid off with some great matches. I wish we had even more from this feud. - Midnight Express vs Rock & Roll Express - Kind of the definitive tag team feud and you'll also like ... - Midnight Express vs Fantastics - More of a "workrate" series. - Vader vs Sting - As good as heavyweight wrestling got in the U.S. in the 1990s. - Dustin Rhodes vs Col Parker's stable - This 1994 feud had lots of excellent matches and was really well-booked. It also features perhaps the greatest wrestling promo of all time from Dusty Rhodes. Also check out any War Games matches. Tully vs Magnum at Starrcade '85. Flair vs Vader at Starrcade '93 after you have a really strong feel of Flair's legacy from the 80s. Road Warriors vs Midnight Express in The Skywalkers is one of the most famous matches of the Crockett era. Most of the best stuff happened before the Turner buyout. Post-Turner buyout, you had a company that could give some great wrestling but you had a horribly mismanaged promotion most of the time, then there was a huge drop in quality after Hulk Hogan showed up. Things slowly rebounded when Nitro started and the Bischoff era peaked with the NWO. Post-1998, hang on tight. Overall, it's a fun promotion because they didn't micromanage talent in the way WWE does, so you had a lot more variety in styles. Wrestlers tended to do their own thing a big chunk of the time because there wasn't really anyone consistently overseeing the ship. Of course, the trade off to that is that the booking was usually inconsistent at best and pretty terrible at worst. Still, the Jim Herd, Kip Frey and Bill Watts reigns prior to Eric Bischoff taking over have plenty of positives and negatives. The negatives are worth enduring for the most part, because the positives tend to be really good. The best bush league sorry excuse for a wrestling promotion ever.

Since 1983 was mentioned, it sounds like he needs to go back to JCP. I would use the Where The Big Boys Play podcasts as a guide for navigating the big shows. Check the Publications & Podcasts folder. They also did a rundown of the top TV matches of the 80s. They are covering every single major WCW/NWA show and are up to mid 1990 now.

I don't understand why this is so heated.

Jim Cornette Eddie Gilbert

There is footage of Flair doing it as early as 1974.

Everyone: When Ric Flair dies, please start a new thread instead of bumping this one. Thank you.

I think they will aim to be interactive on the network also. Don't discount that factor. I could see a show where they bring wrestlers on and take fan questions from Twitter.

A lot of VHS tapes were really expensive in the 80s. I think the movie studios priced them out of the market intentionally so they could make their money through the video rental stores. The difference is that most high priced movies sold to video stores weren't marketed to the general public at all. Occasionally, you'd get a big title at a reasonable price available for sale at the moment it was released on video. But what doesn't jive here for me is that there were ads in WWF Magazine for these $59.95 videos. I understand marketing to video stores at those prices. I don't understand marketing to the general public with those prices.

Here's one. Why were they so expensive?

Not to brag, but here's a brag ... ask goodhelmet about my freakish memory.

If we are only focusing on real possibilities, I think we can say if not Flair, DiBiase. The end.

What about Paul Orndorff?

My organization is here at PWO. I should probably keep a list outside of the board, but I don't.

Here's an out of the box suggestion. What about Stan Hansen?

Lightning Kid vs Wellington Wilkins from the PWA should get a mention.

I think the human element sometimes get overlooked when talking about releases. I'm not saying WWE has a moral obligation to employ everyone. They don't, and they of course have to release people they have no plans for. But I don't celebrate when someone loses their job either. It's a necessary evil, but it's cruddy.

Yes, the goal is to rank them all in countdown fashion. Believe it or not, I have actually racked my brain over the difference between #363 and #368, as you put it. I want to make sure I've carefully considered the placement of everything on the list. For those of you who think the full yearbooks are too much of a commitment, I'm going to attempt to persuade someone to release something with all of them in countdown format. *ahem* I chose 500 because less than that felt like too many notable matches wouldn't get a nod, and more than that felt like too many matches. I'm still laboring over it and will work in 1998 and 1999 when the time comes, so this is a long way from completion.

Good catch, yes I did. Although that is one I am re-thinking and will likely drop a notch or so. Edited the post to add it back in for now.

If you want to be nice, I'd be interested in hearing his thoughts on the territories and the international scene, if he has any at all. If you want to be mean, please ask all questions about wrestlers using their real names and try to use inside terms as much as possible. Try to sound as teen smark as possible. (Example: "How did Bollea get away with not jobbing to Borden at Starrcade? Ego run awry that he treated Borden like a jobber?") If you want to be cruel, bombard him with questions about the decline of Joshi and the history of lucha libre. You could also get his opinions on how All Japan TV going from one hour to 30 minutes in 1994 affected the promotion's mid card talent.

I thought I'd use this thread to drop info on various matches that I see differently after a second viewing, and also to see if anyone can sway me on the matches I'm a little wishy-washy about. First, I'm curious what people's opinions are on the Bret Hart vs Diesel matches. Which match do you think is better - Royal Rumble or Survivor Series? Survivor Series tends to get more praise, but I liked the work of the Rumble match so much better, even though the booking was atrocious. Also, some of the spots aped in the rematch (Bret's fake out leading to the small package and Bret tying Diesel to the ringpost with his wrist tape specifically) came across much better in the Rumble match. Still, I can be swayed if someone makes a compelling argument. I also have rewatched all of my five-star matches over the last few weeks, along with the borderline matches. These are some I'd add to the exclusive club, and some that I'd take out upon a second viewing. ADD: Nobuhiko Takada vs Yoshiaki Fujiwara (UWF 10/25/90) - Fujiwara's performance in this match is just about as good a performance as I think a wrestler can possibly give. I also think this is one of the two best matches in its style -- and definitely the best at presenting the UWF style as a chess game. El Dandy vs El Satanico (EMLL 12/14/90) - I need to re-watch a lot of the 80s lucha, but right now, this is my pick for best lucha brawl of all time. War Games (WCW Wrestle War 05/17/92) - I'm not sure why I didn't go all the way on this one before, but I think this is the best American match of the decade. It has been discussed to death and I think everyone knows the strong points well, so I don't feel the need to go into a ton of detail, but in terms of great ringwork and storyline nuance/payoffs, it's an all-time classic. Megumi Kudo vs Combat Toyoda (FMW 05/05/96) - The best death match I've ever seen, and the one that really shows what the matches truly are at their core more than anything -- selling, teasing and building to a few select big moments. This has the same drama as the big Onita matches mixed in with superior athleticism and the best post-match selling of any match I've ever seen. Volk Han vs Kiyoshi Tamura (RINGS 01/22/97) - The very best shootstyle match of all time, or at least between 1990 and 1997. Spectacular matwork on display here. REMOVE: Silver King, El Texano & Gran Hamada vs Negro Casas, Dr. Wagner Jr. & Rambo (UWA 02/29/92) - Still a wonderful match, but not quite "epic" enough to reach the absolute upper tier. Still, this and the 5/22/92 six-man from All Japan are my favorite trios matches of the decade so far. Jushin Liger vs El Samurai (NJPW 04/30/92) - Still a classic, but falls just short of the full monty for me, mainly because Liger's 2/97 match with Otani was worlds ahead of it. I would still put this match in the top three or four New Japan matches of the 90s at worst, so it's not a huge slip. It's just that I don't think it's quite at that GOAT level anymore. Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 07/29/93) - Again, still a classic, but it lacks the awesome finishing stretch of the best All Japan matches. I actually love the decisiveness of the finish here, but I wish it had been built up a little bit more before it happened. It's enough to take this match down a very small peg. This makes my 5* match list for the 90s this from 1990-1997 this for now. 22 matches, with some of them I'm re-thinking and I'm not sure about yet. Expect this to shrink a little, but I don't think I'll be adding anything else to this group. El Dandy vs Angel Azteca (EMLL 06/01/90) Nobuhiko Takada vs Yoshiaki Fujiwara (UWF 10/25/90) El Dandy vs El Satanico (EMLL 12/14/90) War Games (WCW 05/17/92) El Dandy vs Negro Casas (CMLL 07/03/92) Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Mayumi Ozaki & Dynamite Kansai (AJW 11/26/92) Akira Hokuto vs Shinobu Kandori (AJW 04/02/93) Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 12/03/93) Espectrito vs Mascarita Sagrada (AAA 03/12/94) Akira Hokuto & Shinobu Kandori vs Aja Kong & Bull Nakano (AJW 03/27/94) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW 06/03/94) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (AJPW 04/15/95) Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 06/09/95) Megumi Kudo vs Combat Toyoda (FMW 05/05/96) Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (AJPW 12/06/96) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi (AJPW 01/20/97) Volk Han vs Kiyoshi Tamura (RINGS 01/22/97) Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 02/09/97) Yuki Ishikawa vs Daisuke Ikeda (BattlARTS 04/15/97) Yoshiko Tamura vs Toshie Uematsu (GAEA 07/19/97) El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (CMLL 09/19/97) Bracito de Oro, Cicloncito Ramirez & Mascarita Magica vs Damiancito El Guerrero, El Fierito & Pierrothito (CMLL 10/03/97)