Loss

This is the most perfect description of the WON HOF I have ever seen. Maybe that's the real reason Meltzer doesn't feel the need to put himself on the ballot. The HOF is already all about him. This is the second most perfect description of the WON HOF I have ever seen (although I think Dave is too nice of a guy to think about something that consciously).

Pretty significant figure in the early days of Pancrase, which launched MMA in Japan and changed pro wrestling in Japan in a significant way. I wouldn't vote for him, but I can see why he's discussed.

This is the most perfect description of the WON HOF I have ever seen.

Even a HOF based entirely on drawing would be a clusterfuck. Context surrounding any big numbers is still needed, and people would still debate. That's the fun of it.

I like that it's about both. The compartmentalization of these things is specific to wrestling fans like us. People within wrestling tend to look at the entire composite of what someone brought to the table. In other words, they are more like the arguments you have raised in the past about looking at the big picture instead of one specific aspect of what made someone great and/or effective.

People like JYD should really be evaluated closer to their time, so people aren't relying on things like money drawn without understanding the context of his bad workerdom and poor diet.

And I will agree that Julia Roberts and Demi Moore were bigger stars and are closer to pop culture icons. I'm not sure either is one, although Julia Roberts was box office gold for a pretty big stretch.

It's RINGWALD, not GREENWALD.

My point is that comic books crossed over into a new medium in a more successful, mainstream way than pro wrestling did. I used Molly Ringwald precisely because she's not a pop culture icon -- to demonstrate how ludicrous it is to refer to Hogan as such.

Which was later clarified: And clarified again: And clarified again: And clarified again:

Where in that statement do I say "More people recognize Molly Ringwald in 2013 than Hulk Hogan"?

No one has said this isn't true. Jesus. I have said this 743 times.

My point in even bringing her up was that while we talk about Hogan's huge stardom in the 1980s, there are people a lot of us have probably forgotten about that were a bigger deal at the time. Wrestling had a boom in popularity, but pop culture wasn't drastically affected by the wrestling boom of the 80s.

No, she's not. She was a bigger deal in the 80s though.

I also thought Jerry blocked him. Block him or don't -- either way is fine. But if you don't want to talk to him, don't. He's free to talk to you as long as he isn't trolling, of course. You're also free to not respond.

Thank you, S.L.L.. You articulated my point far better than I could. I agree that Hogan is recognizable. He has a distinctive look. I think more people could identify him after seeing a photo than they could any other wrestler, and probably even other celebrities who were more famous than him at various points, simply because his look is so distinctive. My argument is against him being a "pop culture icon". The difference between awareness and familiarity is a perfect way to put it. Awareness is a step farther than most wrestlers in history, and people are more aware of Hogan than they are other wrestlers. But could they name his three biggest matches? If you asked 10 people on the street what the main event was of Wrestlemania III, how many would be able to answer? I do think the WWF was as close to being mainstream as wrestling ever has been, but when I think of 80s mainstream I think of several steps above Hogan's fame. I definitely give him credit for what he accomplished. It was significant and will likely never be duplicated.

I don't disagree with any of that, Jerry.

Because pro wrestling fans watch pro wrestling and everyone watches movies and television. Knowing who Hogan is doesn't really mean anything more than simply knowing who he is. I think you are underrating the stigma associated with watching wrestling, and overestimating how many people watch or care about pro wrestling.

This doesn't really prove anything against what I'm saying. I've said Hogan is more enduring. I'm saying in the 1980s, there were many acts bigger than him, and I've listed several examples.

One time. For one match. It's a big deal. I'm not trying to downplay that. I'm pointing out that it's wrestling. It's a niche. Hogan is the biggest wrestling star of all time. That means very little in the big non-wrestling picture of popular culture. I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over, and people are responding and saying things like "Yeah, but Hogan is a household name" and "Hogan had a mustache and recognizable look", points I never even tried to dispute. 78,000 or 93,173 people saw Wrestlemania III live, with many more watching on pay-per-view. Probably more people than saw The Princess Bride at the time. Yet Andre the Giant is more famous for his role in The Princess Bride than anything he did in wrestling.

Of course not. She had a bigger medium supporting her than pro wrestling. I can't figure out if you're disagreeing with me or not.

They wouldn't be without the television shows and movies to accompany them.

Sure, and going back to the original, original point, Hogan was a bigger star than Molly. Loss has Molly as bigger. Hogan might have a similar star level as her just based on the sex tape. Not quite "bigger" and that's not really the point I intended to make. I think Hogan is probably the more enduring celebrity nearly 30 years after both of them peaked, but I do think Hulk Hogan at his most popular couldn't touch Molly Ringwald at her most popular. Wrestling is such a niche subculture hobby that appeals to a smaller segment of the population, while most people watch movies. Hulk Hogan was a big fish in a small pond. Just by the nature of what they are involved in, any actor/actress du jour will be more popular than the most popular wrestler. Wrestling means very little in the big picture of pop culture, which is the point I was trying to make. He's hardly a pop culture icon. He's a sidebar. He was doing 1-800-COLLECT commercials a few years back with Alf, a show that averaged 13 million viewers weekly in its *least* popular season (and 21 million viewers weekly at its peak). I'd put Alf above Hogan too, for that reason -- he was a bigger deal at the time that he was a big deal. Molly Ringwald was a bigger deal at the time she was a big deal. Yes, Hogan is still a footnote today, probably more so than Alf or Molly Ringwald, but the point I was trying to make is that I think the wrestling bubble was causing people to overstate Hogan's stardom. And even things like Gremlins, Cyndi Lauper, the end of the sexual revolution, hair metal, the keytar and The Goonies are more synonymous with the 80s. In terms of 80s figures, Michael Jackson is a pop culture icon. Madonna is a pop culture icon. The term should be reserved for people at that level.

Doc and Gordy have three or four great matches as a team, and about 20 mind numbing ones. I asked earlier if the people who disagree with me have seen anything outside the Steiners match and some of the high end All Japan, but haven't heard a response yet.

Big John Studd & Jerry Blackwell vs High Flyers (AWA 02/20/81) I guess there is some good stuff here, but also some stuff that bothers me. I think it’s weird to see Studd going up for hiptosses, sunset flips, powerslams and atomic drops so easily considering the size difference. I also think the referee hurt the timing on some of the spots, specifically the double arm wringer thing Brunzell tried to do early on. The quick tags in and out to do dropkicks on Blackwell were silly, especially in the context of selling a beating. Not a bad match, but the tag formula is really the only thing I liked here, and even that wasn’t done very well.