Loss

Bull Nakano vs Mitsuko Nishiwaki (AJW 01/04/90) This isn't a bad match, but it's also not one that really did anything for me. I don't think the yearbook missed anything by not having this. Very much Bull going through the motions against an opponent that doesn't do much for me.

Thanks. Also, what are some of the ones that are hotly debated? Like, I remember Dave saying Ogawa vs Goodridge from PRIDE was a work, and Goodridge swearing on his children that it was not.

I thought maybe we could use this thread to compile a list of the *known* worked Pancrase and PRIDE matches. I'd like to watch them all just like I watch pro wrestling matches.

Yes, a lot of longtime fans HATED the Attitude Era because of the short match times, too much shooting, all the backstage stuff, 20-minute dueling promos, etc.

That's probably accurate, but until the last few years, there was typically another promotion out there that was giving those fans something to appreciate. I guess for some people, that would be New Japan Pro Wrestling now.

That sums it up awfully well.

Sorry, thought I got them all. There was a post like that in the most recent thread in every single folder on the forum. Spam account that somehow got through.

Sorry, I think I got rid of all the Staples stuff.

Cena isn't part of the problem at all. Anyone who thinks he is should recall the recent WON news item that he is learning Mandarin to give WWE a competitive advantage when the Chinese market opens up. John Cena isn't my favorite wrestler, but I think it's awesome that WWE still has a top star with some aura surrounding him who is good for at least a few truly great matches every year and who works way harder than a guy at his level really has to work. I also agree that Neil was being far too dramatic about WWE's woes and overstating the problem. All of that said: - When people don't watch who criticize WWE, they are told they really shouldn't criticize something they don't watch. - When people who do watch criticize WWE, they are told if they don't like it, they shouldn't watch. I suppose this means when they stop watching, they are no longer in a position to criticize. It seems like an attempt to shut down conversation. Like WWE or shut up, basically. Only positive comments are welcome. I'm happy to go back and watch old stuff. Even watching the best stuff in 2011 was something I couldn't stick with because I don't really like how wrestling has changed. The excitement just isn't there for me anymore. So I spend most of my time watching and talking about wrestling I actually like. But there's a really interesting discussion to be had and I don't understand why people are so averse to it and dismissive of it. How many hardcore football fans don't watch or care about what goes on in the NFL? Wrestling is completely unique in that there is a huge segment of the overall population that is open to watching wrestling and either likes other versions of it now or has liked it in the past that simply doesn't watch because they don't like the way it's presented. People who wish they could watch WWE now but can't get into it because of the creative don't have anything to be blamed for. It's WWE's fault for not creating something with more universal appeal. It's not the audience's fault for caring about things other than the in-ring. At least within the last decade, WWE has never really seemed interested in exploring why there is so much fan turnover and instead doubles down on the way they currently do things. So the end result is that you have a television product that isn't as good as it was in the past and that even presents itself as something that isn't as good as it was in the past, as can be proven on their over reliance on Undertaker, Rock and Lesnar. There is nothing wrong with discussing these topics. Yes, they've come up before and in some cases we've been saying some version of this for years. But it's still as relevant as ever.

Agreed, the match, as well as OJ's write up of it, is excellent. The psychology and build was phenomenal. I think that both guys were able to get across the feeling that they were pulling out all the stops. Yeah, just watched this and it was phenomenal. As I'm tweaking my top 500 list, this is the most I've liked any match that hasn't made the yearbook to this point. Currently going through all of these threads for each year, by the way, watching whatever I can find online.

I did too, until I was told it wasn't.

I don't want them to push someone like they pushed CM Punk. I don't even really want them to push someone like Cena. I want them to push someone as hard as Undertaker, Michaels and HHH were pushed in their primes. I want to see them go all out and actually take a risk on building around someone new, and to treat every single new star they are pushing as the potential next Hogan or Austin. I want to see them play with their television formula and create some real excitement and mystery in their angles ... that is paid off in a satisfying way that makes sense. I want the storylines to get darker and more interesting. I want wins and losses to matter. I want them to pretend during the show that this is the most real thing in the world and that everyone believes everything they are doing. I want them to present every single person on their roster as someone worth caring about. I want them to stop building angles around cynical insider perception issues designed to troll people on the Internet. I want continuity and logical explanations. I want them to reward the people that watch and have long memories. I want great announcing. I realize all of that is never going to happen, and that's fine. WWE does fine doing business the way they do now, and lots of people profit from it. There are also plenty of decent workers capable of having well worked (and pretty heatless) matches with no booking importance and some people enjoy that. More power to them. When it became possible for wrestling companies to make money in ways other than pay-per-view buys and house show attendance, it's a great deal for people within wrestling, but it makes being a wrestling fan a less exciting experience than it has the potential to be.

Here's the bigger issue. HHH said Daniel Bryan is no different from Jericho or RVD, and then he lost, showing that we should really listen to what HHH says about wrestlers, because he's right. They love to have him bury guys, then book them in a way to prove that he was correct all along. Pretty ass backwards.

I wish I could compartmentalize what I watch like that, but I can't.

Yeah, WWE is really going to be better when HHH has full control since he's a "wrestling guy". Where did all of the people who loved to throw out that line go? This angle just like the Punk angle two years ago has just proven that will not happen. Ever. I'm at peace with it. We haven't really seen any evidence that he has a clue how to get someone over. Ultimately, his number one priority seems to be booking WWE as a vanity project to himself where he can shoot on everyone who came along after him as someone that no one cares about. I think we can expect a lot more of that for a long time, so hang on tight!

Oh, that crowd can fuck off. Two whole minutes. Boo hoo. I hate it when wrestling fans act like entitled fuckheads and expect wrestlers to give them something special that they only intend to shit on anyway. Like the match or don't, but it's not like anyone was going to give them a chance. They had no chance at all. I think the reason why that frustrates me so much is that one of the reasons Brock left was because he saw a locker room full of guys strung out on pain pills and decided he didn't want to end up the same way. Knowing what we know about wrestlers dying, and knowing it was the last night for both of them in the company, I can understand the mindset of just making it through the night and moving on with life. It may not be the most professional thing in the world, but I understand it.

The match wasn't that bad. It fell off after the crowd was determined to sabotage it, yes. But they turned on them very early -- after an extended collar-and-elbow tie-up which was actually well-worked. When the chants started, nothing had happened to warrant that reaction.

I've put together a working Top 500 list for the 90s, which I've been working on for a while. I'm going to wait and post it until after I've watched the 1998-1999 yearbooks so I can work in the matches from those years. I also want to do updated reviews for a lot of the matches. But it's interesting sometimes how matches look on a second viewing. Some look much better and some look much worse. Lots of rethinking going on.

The crowds chanting "YES!", HBK on RAW, Bryan himself, Cole, Lawler. .. Not quite what I meant. I feel like you need someone opposing HHH with equally biting criticism of his own career.

For 1/4 Tokyo Dome shows, I think I'd put Choshu vs Hashimoto from '97 over Vader vs Inoki from '96. I like Vader/Inoki, but I wonder if it would be as fondly remembered without that German.

Who is stepping up to say "I disagree, you are completely wrong" and proving it repeatedly?

I'd like to see Michael Parks take on Vince McMahon, just to see if he could pull it off. I have a feeling that he could. The guy is an amazing character actor.

Add: January 21 - El Samurai vs Shinjiro Otani, 1996 February 9 - Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani, 1997 March 27 - Akira Hokuto & Shinobu Kandori vs Aja Kong & Bull Nakano, 1994 April 10 - Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Mayumi Ozaki & Dynamite Kansai, 1993 May 5 - Megumi Kudo vs Combat Toyoda, 1996 21 - Misawa/Kobashi vs Kawada/Taue, 1994 22 - Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi vs Jumbo/Taue/Fuchi, 1992 July 19 - Yoshiko Tamura vs Toshie Uematsu, 1997 August 27 - Shawn Michaels vs Razor Ramon, 1995 October 25 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Yoshiaki Fujiwara, 1990 November 26 - Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Mayumi Ozaki & Dynamite Kansai, 1992 Fun debate: Hokuto vs Kandori for 4/2 (from '93) or Flair vs Steamboat for 4/2 (from '89)?

Not sure it needs to be replaced, but debating which is better between Rey vs Psicosis on 9/22/95 (in AAA) and Michaels vs Mankind at Mind Games on 9/22/96 would be interesting.

For three hours every Monday night, you can hear about how much everyone sucks, is underachieving and is someone not worth caring about! Not really interested.