Loss

I love pro wrestling.

I wonder what the deliverables were in Akbar's contracts with wrestlers. Also, why would Randy Savage pick an unknown woman over every top manager in the WWF? Did Elizabeth have a fine understanding of how to negotiate title shots? Was she so desperate for money that she was willing to be abused by her client all those years? Did they always have a romantic partnership, or did that develop from a business relationship? Or is that too personal?

This thread is awesome already! So I guess the famed manager's license is just a way for the promotion to get a piece of the action by implementing what amounts to a tax on managers?

I don't think it was a dig either. An opinion better explained isn't necessarily the more valid one. It's just the better explained one. I think we all agree on that.

This should be fun. Let's talk about weird wrestling logic as it relates to contracts. A few things that spring to mind: * Shawn Michaels signing a contract prepared for Chris Benoit to face HHH at Wrestlemania. This legal dilemma resulted in WWE making the Wrestlemania XX main event a three-way * Vince Russo's endless "fine print" get out of booking jail free card crap * Contract signings frequently happening weeks after a match has been officially announced. What if someone changed their mind during the contract signing? Does that mean the match won't happen? And why do only some matches require contracts to be signed but not all of them? Or do they and they only televise certain ones? * Managers "purchasing the contracts" of wrestlers in old territories frequently. So did that mean every wrestler had a contract? Who owned the contract for wrestlers that didn't have managers? The promotion? Does that mean that wrestlers who are managed work for the manager and not the promotion? Is the manager then employed by the promotion with the wrestlers as third parties? Are all wrestler contracts for sale to evil managers if that's the case?

You just gave me a great thread idea.

I've been giving that idea some thought recently too. It's not to step on the DVDVR project in any way. It's a project associated with that board and rankings and voting would still take place there. We would just provide an additional place for people to talk about what they are watching. I do really like the idea of pretty much every notable thing to ever happen in wrestling eventually having its own thread here.

Whatever that means. I'm not sure any contract is so ironclad that you can freely beat up the owner of the company with the owner's hands being completely tied legally. That in a way proves my point. There's a contorted logic that if they choose can get them all the way to Mania with this feud without even really stepping that much outside of WWE norms.

Right, he can hand himself a match anytime he wants, but Vince could have just fired Steve Austin too. Would have made his life a lot easier. Plus, they can play up "Daniel Bryan headlining Wrestlemania is our worst nightmare come true!" in the build. But since he's the champ, their hands are tied. WWE logic twists and bends all the time.

Beating HHH means more than beating Orton, not to mention that DB has already beaten Orton.

I don't think running the Orton vs Bryan match 2-3 times is out of the question if they do decide to draw the feud out. - The Shield costs DB the title against Orton at NOC - DB and three partners face Orton & The Shield at Battleground and win - DB beats any one of The Shield at HIAC while Orton faces Punk with some type of cheap finish - Orton vs Punk vs Bryan headlines Survivor Series with Punk eating the fall after Brock/Heyman interference - Bryan earns title shot by beating Orton in a non-title tag match on RAW, or so we think. HHH refuses to allow the match to headline because it's not good for business - Bryan put into some type of impossible situation gimmick match at TLC where HHH halfassedly tells him sure, he can have Orton at the Rumble and he'll give him his deserved opportunity if he can pull off nearly impossible thing; Bryan wins - Bryan beats Orton at Rumble for the title with Maddox as special ref, Vince as timekeeper, Vicki as ring announcer (recreate Over The Edge); meanwhile, as a last-minute response HHH rigs Rumble to draw #30 and have everyone left in the ring take dives for the boss - Bryan successfully defends in match involving Orton/Punk/whoever else at EC; gets laid out immediately by HHH after - Bryan vs HHH at Mania with Bryan finally getting his revenge Not likely and a little bit challenging, but possible.

Also, wrestlers can be great in completely different ways for completely different reasons. Sometimes, those reasons even contradict things that make other wrestlers great. I do think distinguishing "favorite" and "best" is important, and that we should at least attempt to set our personal biases aside when we can. But I realize we never completely can set aside our personal biases at the end of the day, we can only try. We are who we are.

It was the Nitro a week before this.

Is it really more complicated than asking yourself who you think is the best at this pro wrestling stuff and listing a few guys? Then asking who you think falls just below that and listing those guys? And so on? I don't think there's a real methodology in play beyond that, because quite a few great wrestlers are great for entirely different reasons.

I don't know, I was really expecting Zeb Coulter to cut promos on him as a way to capitalize on this as a media opportunity. They went the tasteful route to be sure, but I think they missed a chance to do something fun with this. Maybe they were worried their audience would boo him or do "faggot" chants? I don't know.

I also struggled to get into lucha libre at first, but my challenge was trios matches, not singles matches so much.

There are exceptions, but lucha is more about tone and rhythm than narrative to me for the most part. That's not to say there are no great in-ring stories told in lucha libre. It's that the point is usually to get over the emotion and urgency of whatever the key issue is more than it is to work a match where each thing that happens logically progresses to the next thing. American wrestling is built around babyface teases. Ricky Morton teases a comeback before he delivers one to signal to the audience that he's still in the fight. That's not lucha libre. They will keep you waiting until they are ready to give you the comeback. It's just a different sensibility. MS-1 vs Sangre Chicana was about making sure you knew they hated each other, and beating that theme to death repeatedly. El Dandy vs Angel Azteca was about making sure we knew these guys were highly skilled mat technicians, and hammering that point home with every sequence and exchange. I find that my favorite lucha libre aims to get the match or feud over as great/important/worth caring about more than it aims to get a specific wrestler over as great/important/worth caring about. My favorite lucha matches are also ones that take a single idea and don't do anything - at all - that isn't designed to sell you on that idea. That singular focus is one of my favorite things about the style. I haven't watched Satanico/Cochisse in quite a while, but I do remember loving it. Then again, title match lucha is my favorite type of wrestling.

Hogan and Rodman call out Lex Luger and The Giant again. This time, Hogan does most of the talking. They keep waiting for Luger and Giant and they don't show up and Rodman says let's get out of here. Finally, Luger and Giant are out. Rodman is about to eat a chokeslam until Hogan intervenes. But Rodman grabs the belt and hits Giant from behind. The crowd goes nuts! Then the NWO runs in and everyone puts the boots to Luger and Giant while the ring fills with garbage as both guys get NWO spraypainted on their backs. I love how Nash makes sure to hug Rodman so the audience knows he's taller.

Third and final match of the series. Hall and Nash keep flicking cigar ashes on Rey and blowing smoke in Rey's face while Syxx dominates. Hall and Nash do their usual feeds to Rey, but Syxx wins in the end once again. This is all leading to Rey challenging Nash to a match, and I think it was supposed to eventually lead to Hall/Nash vs Rey/Juvi/Psicosis until plans changed. I remember Hall and Nash wanting to do that match. This series has been a real burial of Rey in some ways, but I don't think it was initially put together that way. Anyway, they keep beating up Rey after the match then decide to cut a promo to brag about beating Flair and Piper the night before and also bring out Randy Savage. He doesn't really seem to have anything to talk about and tries too hard to be cool. DDP finally interrupts and says if Savage wants to rely on Hall, that's fine because no one knows Scott Hall like he does. He found himself a tag team partner to take on Hall and Savage at Bash at the Beach.

Madusa lost a match at the Bash and has to retire. She is out to say goodbye to everyone. I'm not sure why this is on here. Goodhelmet?

Hogan has switched to "Voodoo Child" as his entrance music, or as Mike Tenay says, "Voodoo Chili". Dennis Rodman is with them. I love that they show the limo arrival, long walk from the back and ultimately the arrival in the ring to really get this over as an event. Hogan and Rodman are smoking cigars with Eric Bischoff in tow. That entrance was phenomenal, and they are in Chicago so this is electric. Hogan is having the time of his life. There is no way the WWF could compete with this. They are going to get rid of Flexy Lexy and that stinky Giant tonight! Rodman grabs the mic and calls Luger "Lex Luthor". Funny to see the NWO t-shirt wearing crowd boo Hogan and cheer Rodman. They can't make up their minds on anything!

Last few minutes. Weird to see Undertaker work face in peril. He was so much more interesting when he was vulnerable. They are speculating over who will join the NOD. Ross throws out Butch Reed and JYD as possibilities. Did Kama really just pin Undertaker? Ahmed ends up turning on Undertaker in a very telegraphed angle that pretty much killed him in the WWF. Fans seem to know where this is going before it even happens. This angle is embarrassing.

JIP. Pillman has a broken and bloody nose. Not much of a match since Pillman didn't have too much left to give at this point. The difference in energy when Austin is on offense and when Pillman is on offense is pretty strong. Jim Ross's commentary is interesting for a few reasons. The referee eats a stunner for no apparent reason, then Pillman pulls out brass knocks. The Hart Foundation, who are handcuffed to the ring posts, managed to unlock themselves when Owen pig pockets the referee Austin stunned. Well, that meaningless stunner was a plot device that was oddly convenient. Mankind and Goldust make the save, and Shamrock is out too. They clear the ring of the Harts. Austin is about to attack Shamrock from behind, but Shamrock takes him down. Surprising lack of reaction for that. Austin and Shamrock then end up brawling before the LOD separate them. Goldust finally grabs the mic and tells them to stop fighting, join forces and take on the Hart Foundation at Canadian Stampede. Austin agrees to step in the ring with them -- one time.

Vince talks forever before Pillman gets in a word. Not a fan of Pillman during this time, because he always seemed like he was working his own angle instead of the Hart Foundation stuff.

Austin is out and isn't happy about this tournament at all. He doesn't give a damn who his partner is and Mankind quickly interrupts to begin one of my personal favorite angles ever. He felt a bond after Austin gave him the finger. He wants to team with Austin! "I don't need no freak watchin' my back. You ain't got no ears." Austin rules. Mankind points out that he has long hair, can wear an earring and can shake his ass because he has a great ass! This is hilarious! Shamrock is out for a receipt from last week. He wants Austin in the ring tonight! Austin is all for it after he wipes the mat with Pillman.