Loss

Well, Dan Deacon is kind of a big indy name and I believe he organized this project where 37 different groups remixed "We Can't Stop". Maybe the words "indy cred" were poorly chosen, but it's popular with that crowd in the same way "Since U Been Gone", "Umbrella", "Call Me Maybe" and other pop songs have occasionally been over the last decade or so.

http://mabsonenterprises.bandcamp.com/album/we-cant-stop

Of course not.

I never said the WWF fans didn't appreciate good wrestling. I said they didn't appreciate guys who weren't pushed as stars having good matches. I mentioned that in my last post and you equated it again with muscleheads, which wasn't what I was saying at all.

The "Crockett hardcores" took years and years to completely kill off. I don't know that they stayed around for the Dungeon of Doom crap, but there are plenty of Flair vs Hogan matches with Flair getting cheered and Hogan getting booed. I do think more old fans came back when wrestling was cool. WCW wouldn't have run so many pay-per-views and Nitros to packed houses in Atlanta, Charlotte, Richmond, Norfolk, Winston-Salem and Asheville otherwise. WCW not only created lots of new fans, but also brought back quite a few lapsed ones. I can't tell you how many times I've heard stories of people who stopped watching at some point in the late 80s or early 90s that came back around 1997-1998. I think the split still applied. This thread wasn't so much about how WWF fans don't appreciate good wrestling, although I've always thought the changes made when Bret and Shawn worked on top in the WWF were overstated. The point was more that the WWF didn't give non-stars much of a reaction, while WCW fans were willing to give them a chance. Bret and Shawn got a reaction because Bret and Shawn were headliners. There aren't very many show-stealing midcard matches really in the history of the promotion (I consider the IC title a "headline" title probably until Russo-era WWF), so I'm sure it's a philosophical thing Vince has about protecting main events. I also remember Dave referencing once that WCW had demographics information that a large part of their fanbase was hardcore fans of sports, while the WWF fanbase fell more on the pop culture side. I'm sure that played a part in crowd reaction. The other point I'll make is that WCW fans loved to hold the four fingers up in periods when the Horsemen were either not being pushed hard or weren't around at all, which I think says something about longtime fans and memories too.

Joshi needs to be cut almost in half. We usually get around 20-25 Joshi matches on a yearbook. There are 40 here. Can anyone help with making some deep cuts? We need to axe a lot of it. ==== AJW Momoe Nakanishi vs Kumiko Maekawa (AJW 03/01/98) Manami Toyota vs Shinobu Kandori (AJW 08/23/98) Manami Toyota, Yumiko Hotta & Takako Inoue vs Etsuko Mita, Mima Shimoda & Kyoko Inoue (AJW 12/26/98) ARSION Yumi Fukawa vs Candy Okutsu (ARSION Grand Opening 02/18/98) Aja Kong vs Michiko Omukai (ARSION Grand Opening 02/18/98) Yumi Fukawa vs Michiko Omukai (ARSION Starlet 04/11/98) Candy Okutsu vs Michiko Futagami (ARSION Starlet 04/17/98) Aja Kong vs Mariko Yoshida (ARSION 06/21/98) Rie Tamada & Hiroumi Yagi vs Michiko Omukai & Yumi Fukawa (ARSION 12/18/98) Mariko Yoshida vs Candy Okutsu (ARSION 12/18/98) GAEA Etsuko Mita & Mima Shimoda vs Meiko Satomura & Sonoko Kato (GAEA 01/15/98) Sugar Sato & Chikayo Nagashima vs KAORU & Toshiyo Yamada (GAEA 02/22/98) Chikayo Nagashima vs Meiko Satomura (GAEA 04/14/98) Aja Kong & Mayumi Ozaki vs Chigusa Nagayo & Meiko Satomura (GAEA 04/29/98) Sonoko Kato & Meiko Satomura vs Kaoru & Toshiyo Yamada (GAEA 06/13/98) Kaoru vs Toshiyo Yamada (GAEA 06/14/98) Toshiyo Yamada & Sonoko Kato vs Kaoru & Meiko Satomura (GAEA 06/21/98) Aja Kong & Mayumi Ozaki vs Meiko Satomura & Sonoko Kato (GAEA 08/10/98) Aja Kong & Mayumi Ozaki vs Sugar Sato & Chikayo Nagashima (GAEA 08/23/98) Meiko Satomura vs Sonoko Kato (GAEA 08/23/98) Aja Kong & Mayumi Ozaki vs Toshiyo Yamada & Meiko Satomura (GAEA 12/27/98) Kaoru vs Toshie Uematsu (GAEA 12/27/98) Jd' Lioness Asuka vs Jaguar Yokota (Jd' 01/11/98) Megumi Yabushita & Sumie Sakai vs Momoe Nakanishi & Nanae Takahashi (Jd' 02/02/98) Lioness Asuka vs Kyoko Inoue (Jd' 04/26/98) Hiroumi Yagi vs Sumie Sakai (Jd' 07/05/98) Jaguar Yokota & Yuko Kosugi vs Lioness Asuka & The Bloody (Jd' 07/05/98) Lioness Asuka vs Kyoko Inoue (Jd' 08/02/98) JWP Chikayo Nagashima & Mayumi Ozaki vs Dynamite Kansai & Cuty Suzuki (JWP 01/11/98) Manami Toyota & Kaoru Ito vs Hikari Fukuoka & Tomoko Kuzumi (JWP 02/11/98) Hikari Fukuoka vs Tomoko Kuzumi (JWP 03/06/98) LLPW Shinobu Kandori, Rumi Kazama & Yasha Kurenai vs Eagle Sawai, Michiko Nagashima & Sayori Okino (LLPW 02/15/98) NEO Etsuko Mita, Mima Shimoda & Saya Endo vs Kyoko Inoue, Chapparita Asari & Yoshiko Tamura (NEO 01/09/98) Hikari Fukuoka vs Kyoko Inoue (NEO 02/15/98) Etsuko Mita & Mima Shimoda vs Kyoko Inoue & Genki Misae (NEO 02/25/98) Lioness Asuka vs Kyoko Inoue (NEO Be Happy 05/06/98) Aja Kong vs Kyoko Inoue (NEO 10/20/98) Kyoko Inoue vs Misae Genki (NEO 12/28/98) Oz Academy Reiko Amano & Chikayo Nagashima vs Toshie Uematsu & Sonoko Kato (Oz Academy 06/21/98) Mayumi Ozaki & Sugar Sato vs Kyoko Inoue & Yoshiko Tamura (Oz Academy 06/21/98)

Here's the preliminary FMW list: Masato Tanaka vs Mr. Gannosuke (FMW 01/06/98) Hayabusa vs Masato Tanaka (FMW 03/13/98) Hayabusa vs The Gladiator (FMW 03/17/98) Mr. Gannosuke vs Jinsei Shinzaki (FMW 04/21/98) Jinsei Shinzaki vs Kintaro Kanemura (FMW Entertainment Wrestling Live 04/30/98) Hayabusa vs Mr. Gannosuke (FMW Entertainment Wrestling Live 04/30/98) Hayabusa vs Masato Tanaka (FMW 05/19/98) Hayabusa & Masato Tanaka vs Kintaro Kanemura & Kodo Fuyuki (FMW 05/27/98) Masato Tanaka vs Tetsuhiro Kuroda (FMW 06/19/98) Hayabusa, Daisuke Ikeda, Hisakatsu Oya & Ricky Fuji vs Kodo Fuyuki, Koji Nakagawa, Kintaro Kanemura & Gedo (FMW 06/19/98) Gladiator vs Kintaro Kanemura (FMW 07/10/98) Hayabusa, Daisuke Ikeda, Hisakatsu Oya & Ricky Fuji vs Gedo, Jado, Ricky Fuyuki & Koji Nakagawa (FMW 07/10/98, Elimination Match) Kintaro Kanemura vs Tetsuhiro Kuroda (FMW 10/06/98) Mr. Gannosuke vs Kintaro Kanemura (FMW 12/13/98) Hisakatsu Oya vs Tetsuhiro Kuroda (FMW 12/13/98) (JIP) Hayabusa vs Hisakatsu Oya (FMW 12/13/98) === I think we can swing it without cutting any of this, but if we do, these are probably the ones that would go, only because they aren't on BAHU's FMW 100: Gladiator vs Kintaro Kanemura (FMW 07/10/98) Mr. Gannosuke vs Kintaro Kanemura (FMW 12/13/98)

I'd agree with that. I look at Benoit vs Scorpio in Asheville, NC for SuperBrawl III. That's another example. Both guys had TV exposure, but TV ratings were so down in late 1992-early 1993 that I'd wager a big part of the crowd was really seeing these guys in an extended match for the first time. But they got incredibly involved. Benoit vs Scorpio would not have gotten the same reaction in the WWF. I don't know that it's a regional thing, as I think the match would have gotten over big on a Northeast indy. I think it's specifically how the WWF conditions their fans. I don't know that WCW really conditioned its fans to appreciate or not appreciate much of anything (The Watts era was probably the only time in WCW history a lot of granular thought was put into the in-ring style), so they just popped for what they were given. The WWF was more calculated, so a match thrown out just because it's good just isn't going to do much most of the time. Neither approach is "wrong", it's just interesting to discuss the differences.

For New Japan, we're probably looking at these. I placed an asterisk (*) next to the ones where we would just use the JIP TV version as source material. If any of those are more complete in other places, please let me know. Ultimo Dragon vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW Tokyo Dome 01/04/98) Riki Choshu Career Highlights/Official Retirement (NJPW Tokyo Dome 01/04/98) Naoya Ogawa vs Don Frye (NJPW Tokyo Dome 01/04/98) Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 02/07/98) * Jushin Liger vs Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 02/08/98) * Naoya Ogawa vs Don Frye (NJPW 02/15/98) * Jushin Liger & Dr Wagner Jr vs Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 03/06/98) * Antonio Inoki vs Don Frye (NJPW 04/04/98) Kensuke Sasaki vs Tatsumi Fujinami (NJPW 04/04/98) Genichiro Tenryu & Shiro Koshinaka vs Tatsumi Fujinami & Satoshi Kojima (NJPW 04/14/98) * Jushin Liger, El Samurai & Kendo Ka Shin vs Shinjiro Otani, Koji Kanemoto & Tatsuhito Takaiwa (NJPW 04/21/98) * Genichiro Tenryu, Shiro Koshinaka & Michiyoshi Ohara vs Hiroyoshi Tenzan, Masa Chono & Masa Saito (NJPW 04/21/98) * Norio Honaga retirement video, "Wonderful Tonight" (NJPW 04/30/98) * Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 05/28/98) Koji Kanemoto vs Dr. Wagner Jr. (NJPW 06/03/98) Jushin Liger, El Samurai, Kendo Ka Shin, Dr. Wagner Jr. & Hayato Nanjyo vs Shinjiro Otani, Koji Kanemoto, Tatsuhito Takaiwa, Kaz Hayashi & Masakazu Fukuda (NJPW 06/05/98, Elimination Match) Genichiro Tenryu & Shiro Koshinaka vs Masa Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan (NJPW 06/05/98) Jushin Liger vs Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 07/15/98) * Genichiro Tenryu vs Keiji Muto (NJPW G-1 Climax Round 1 07/31/98) Satoshi Kojima vs Tadao Yasuda (NJPW 08/01/98) Shiro Koshinaka vs Masa Chono (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/01/98) Genichiro Tenryu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/01/98) Shinya Hashimoto vs Satoshi Kojima (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/02/98) Shinya Hashimoto vs Kazuo Yamazaki (NJPW G-1 Climax 08/02/98) Shinjiro Otani & Tatsuhito Takaiwa vs Koji Kanemoto & Dr. Wagner (NJPW 08/08/98) Genichiro Tenryu vs Shinya Hashimoto (NJPW 08/08/98) Genichiro Tenryu & Shiro Koshinaka vs Keiji Muto & Hiroyoshi Tenzan (NJPW 10/18/98) Shinjiro Otani & Tatsuhito Takaiwa vs Koji Kanemoto & Kendo Ka Shin (NJPW 10/24/98) * Jushin Liger vs El Samurai (NJPW 10/24/98) * Jushin Liger vs Shinjiro Otani (NJPW 10/30/98) * I'm sure some of the Frye matches can be axed, but since it was a big part of New Japan at the time, I just want to represent it somehow. The rest of this isn't as much as it looks like. A lot of it is 5-10 minute TV clips, but I still want to include it since it's what we have. Liger/Kanemoto from 7/15 is 27 minutes in full and I hope it's available on a commercial release. It looks to be on a big show so I'm hoping it is.

I've already done some of this in this thread, but I thought I would start posting what we have now as the full list for each of the Japanese and lucha promotions, if anyone has anything that should be added, removed or otherwise reconsidered. I'm even going to repeat the ones we have already listed just to make sure there are no mistakes or oversights on my part. For New Japan and All Japan, I also want to make sure we're using the best source for each match. ===== I'll start with Big Japan: Gedo & Jado vs Yoshihiro Taijiri & Ryuji Yamakawa (BJPW 01/02/98) Yoshihiro Taijiri vs Minoru Tanaka (BJPW Indy Hyper J Tournament 02/03/98) Yoshihiro Taijiri vs Gedo (BJPW Indy Hyper J Tournament 02/03/98) Yoshihiro Taijiri & Ryuji Yamakawa vs Shadow Winger & Shadow WX (BJPW 03/04/98) Yoshihiro Taijiri vs Ikuto Hidaka (BJPW 03/31/98) Katsumi Usuda vs Minoru Fujita (BJPW 05/01/98) Shoji Nakamaki, Masked G.K., Mitsuhiro Matsunaga & Jason The Terrible vs Great Pogo, Shadow WX, Shadow Winger & Shadow VI (BJPW 05/01/98, Super Hardcore Match) Shadow WX vs Tomoaki Honma (BJPW King of the Death Matches 07/26/98, Barbed Wire Baseball Bat and Barbed Wire Board Match) Katsumi Usuda vs Tomoaki Honma (BJPW 09/23/98) Minoru Fujita & Ikuto Hidaka vs Katsumi Usuda & Tomoaki Honma (BJPW 11/06/98) The first we'd axe are probably these, with the other seven staying pretty firm: Yoshihiro Taijiri & Ryuji Yamakawa vs Shadow Winger & Shadow WX (BJPW 03/04/98) Katsumi Usuda vs Tomoaki Honma (BJPW 09/23/98) Minoru Fujita & Ikuto Hidaka vs Katsumi Usuda & Tomoaki Honma (BJPW 11/06/98)

My mistake, it's called "We Can't Stop".

Yes, market research in 1996 showed Eddy to be the most likable guy in WCW.

2.6 million people who watched Nitro and weren't automatically added to RAW's audience when WCW folded disagree.

Not sure when it took place, but the report was compiled and issued around the time Bischoff was forced out and replaced with Bill Busch. I think an outside firm did it and collected data for over a year.

I would have thought that too, but Vader vs Shamrock at Cold Day In Hell was in Richmond, VA and Regal vs Ultimo at Slamboree a week later was in Charlotte, NC. I could see people going either way on which match they prefer, but one match got over a whole lot better than the other one with the live crowd, and it wasn't the one you'd expect.

Going through 90s yearbooks, I think comparing WWF and WCW fans and what they popped for is a really interesting topic. I found that in general, it was easier for good workers to get over in front of a WCW crowd. If the wrestlers were doing good work, fans were going to get into what they were doing. The WWF was more based on perception and hype, so two no-names having a good match wasn't going to get a strong reaction very often. There are also certain spots we've all commented on in the threads, the most notable being that a surefire way to pop a WCW crowd is to do a series of tombstone piledriver reversals. That was a constant through good times and bad, changes in leadership, etc. I remember Russo discarding the survey that WCW did on their audience that showed what they wanted that WCW wasn't giving them. I'm not sure very many people in wrestling -- if anyone -- really understood the difference between the two promotions. Some things would work in both places, but some things would have probably worked in WCW that would have failed in the WWF, and vice versa. Anyone have anything to add to this?

Well yes, but the difference between Bischoff and Russo was that Bischoff knew enough to know he wasn't an expert on all things wrestling and surrounded himself with people who knew their stuff. Russo thought he had all the answers (and really, really didn't understand the difference between the WWF and WCW viewing audiences, which I think is really summed up in the crowd reaction to Regal vs Ultimo at Slamboree compared to Vader vs Shamrock at Cold Day In Hell). Check my thoughts in those threads to see what I mean.

I think the best part of this is that Austin really was upset when he found out this was the match they were working at Mania. He found out when the viewing audience found out. He was probably channeling that frustration in his promo. He shared that story recently on his podcast. I think Austin decided in ECW to use promos as therapy.

In defense of the segment, I will say again that Eric Bischoff had balls of steel in 1997. I'm up to May and so far he has attempted a cross-promotional tie-in with TNT to promote a new show, given his top heel faction their own pay-per-view, placed a match between referees in a head-to-head quarter hour, started a martial arts division, built a 20-minute segment around no-names fighting to compete with Roddy Piper, allowed a segment with Randy Savage staging a sit-in to go nearly 15 minutes, used the biggest pop culture fixture in basketball in his top heel faction, and headlined and co-headlined a pay-per-view with football players. There are some failures, but he was far more willing to step outside the box and attempt new things than he really needed to be considering how far ahead they were of the WWF, and I will give him credit for it. To this day, I'm not sure Bischoff realizes that the willingness to take huge risks coincided with his biggest success. I mean, he was willing to try stuff like this, and 18 months later, wasn't willing to let Chris Jericho get squashed in five minutes by Goldberg in a semi-main event spot on pay-per-view. That's a huge change in mindset and really explains a lot about WCW's collapse.

Agreed, and I also just really, really, really don't like that MITB has become a WWE institution. It's a way for WWE to half-invest in midcarders who they aren't willing to build around as champion or give a victory in a real match, where they can hide behind the "We gave them an opportunity" excuse when the push inevitably fails.

Steve Austin is out to point out that he doesn't give a rat's ass about Shawn Michaels. He makes sure to make as clear as possible that he hates Shawn. Shawn is out and looks to be trying to be edgier, wearing a black cutoff shirt and bandana and swearing. It seems very forced and even more pandering than his usual act, but it is more tolerable. Austin makes fun of the bandana and things get heated between the two of them. A brawl breaks out between the two of them. What made Austin's push work so well is that anyone could feud with anyone and it made sense. The referees are in to break it up, but now we have yet another hot feud involving Bret, Shawn and Austin. Every combination possible of those three feuding still has lots of legs. The Hart Foundation comes on the monitor to mock them for fighting among themselves. Owen issues a challenge for them to team up and face him and Davey Boy next week for the tag titles if they can get their act together. Shawn is happy to find a different partner and come out next week and clean some house. Austin: "You ain't cleanin' nothin' but the toilet!" They exchange more words and get in another brawl. Great, great segment.

I have to give the NWO huge credit for being total pros here. They did everything they could to feed Flair, Piper and Greene crowd-pleasing spots and this finish was really a surprise in how decisive it was. Syxx seems motivated like crazy to work with Ric Flair. That feud should have been SO much more, and maybe it could have been if Flair wasn't convinced it was only happening because of some grand conspiracy to bury him. Even Nash worked so smart and effective here that it showed me he could have been much better regularly if he wanted to be. Really, if anything, they outworked the babyfaces and carried this one. Working Nick Patrick into the finish was great booking too. There aren't too many better feel good moments than this, especially in the WCW vs NWO feud.

Last few minutes. I'm not a football fan, but goodhelmet tells me he was a big deal so we should probably acknowledge this match. Good idea in theory, but Mongo is in zero position to be carrying a wrestling match. Mongo gets the win after Jeff Jarrett tosses him the briefcase.

Savage doesn't want to be interviewed by Gene Okerlund. He strong arms the mic from him and chases him off. I always wanted Gene to take a bump in an angle. He says that DDP no longer wants a part of Savage. DDP comes through the crowd with the bent crutch from Nitro and Savage bails when he hits the ring. Bischoff is out to restrain Savage and DDP tells him to go wash Hogan's car and kiss his ass. Savage isn't to happy with that line, as you'd expect and convinces the NWO to step aside so he can enter the ring. DDP starts beating him with the crutch and holds the NWO at bay briefly as well, but the numbers eventually catch up. The Giant quickly makes the save. Hot angle to set up the rematch at the Great American Bash.

How WCW went this long calling Ultimo the Ultimate Dragon without someone in the promotion correcting them on it blows my mind. These two gel really well - far better than you might think - and this match has some really interesting matwork. Ultimo takes it to the mat and works Regal's style. This is the type of match that really makes me miss WCW -- unlike WWE, they weren't so indoctrinated in their house style that they were completely unwilling to showcase other working styles. It also shows the difference between WWF and WCW fans, as WCW fans are more than willing to give this a fair shake and respond to the good work accordingly. WWF fans would sit on their hands in most towns. The point of this isn't to bash the WWF, but just to point out that variety is the spice of life, and that applies to pro wrestling too. This was a really unique, interesting match that I enjoyed quite a bit. Even Sonny Onoo didn't detract too much.