Loss

Rude cuts another masked promo, and it's a shame the guy couldn't work anymore, because he fits into this environment really well. He leaves Joey Styles speechless here. Shane Douglas comes looking for him, but Rude has already left. Because he is Shane Douglas, he decides to cut a promo anyway. Douglas says he knows why Rude won't unmask and has a tape from Japan that will reveal everything. It turns out to be Rude's injury from '94, which isn't exactly news.

I thought this was terrific from an action perspective, but I'm guessing I'll look back on it as a teaser for the April 18 match. These guys worked at a breakneck pace for a half hour and this was a blast to watch. I don't really have much more to say about it than that. The excited commentary in this is amazing! I also think this may have had a little more substance than Childs did, although I admit that the pacing and highspots is the calling card. From a storyline perspective, I thought they did a really good job continuing the Santo/Casas feud, continuing the portrayal from the 1996 Yearbook of Casas as a guy who is sort of a hero after Santo turned, but is still kind of a self-serving jerk by nature, so he doesn't know what to make of his newfound popularity. El Dandy and Silver King were standouts too, but duh.

The biggest area where JCP (and even post-JCP WCW, for that matter) fell short was in not marketing their video library like the WWF did even then. I realize that retrospective DVD sets are a fairly new thing within the past decade, but the WWF did over a half-dozen two-hour Hulk Hogan videos, a 20-volume Best of the WWF set, etc. There's no reason the NWA couldn't have done similar videos for their top stars and also for their match concepts (War Games on tour, best of Flair/Dusty/Nikita/Magnum/Horsemen, best cage & I Quit matches, etc.) They also should have filmed dark matches and occasionally took a camera on the road with them. Turner Home Entertainment was a bigger outfit than Coliseum Video, so I'm not sure what the issue was. Shortening all of their PPVs to two hours also hurt them in the rental market. So yes, Vince probably would have done a better job promoting Flair in that way, but the Horsemen were not really going to be a good fit in Vince McMahon's WWF.

Well, Sting absolutely had potential. They say you can't make a living on potential, but he actually did.

Question for you, without having watched this yet: Do you think the New Japan 5 x 5 matches from the 80s are a good comparison here?

This has been very informative by the way, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. I don't normally think of the booking of the New Japan juniors division being this slow-paced, which is why I am challenging it. For example, Liger feuded with Honaga in 1991-1992 and gave him wins. Liger feuded with Samurai in 1992 and traded wins with him too. There was no long delay. I see more potential in Otani as an heir, which is why seeing him lose more than Samurai and Honaga is a little frustrating. When did Liger actually start booking? Is it possible that either someone else was booking the division in the early days, or maybe just that Liger improved with time? I'm just trying to understand what changed between 1991-1992 and 1996-1997, and also understand the mentality of beating someone with potential while giving Samurai and Honaga more wins.

What qualified Sasuke and Ultimo as "kings"? Especially Ultimo. Just curious.

It does in October, in a match that isn't on this level and isn't on the set. What is the date of this October match? I want to add it to my Rewatching and first time viewing thread. Title history on Wikipedia shows Otani forfeiting the WWF junior title on 10/05/97 at their request, but it looks like Liger dropped the IWGP junior title to Samurai on July 6. What was the October match?

I think I figured it out. Is it that they started with a battle royal to determine order of entry, then the match switched to a tag match where when one guy goes out, he is replaced, with the match ending when all members of one team are eliminated?

For what it's worth, Ted said in interviews at the time that he didn't go to JCP because everything was too cliquish and he wouldn't have had a fair chance.

I realized I should stop this until I understand the rules. Can someone explain? Wikipedia seems to just say elimination rules, but this started off like a Royal Rumble with top rope eliminations then ended up with less guys.

Last few minutes. The entire NWO (including Hogan) come out and lay out both teams. Sherri is out there and obviously has no idea what she's supposed to be doing in this segment. Lex Luger and The Giant make the save and the WCW guys clear the ring. To end the segment, Sting comes down from the rafters and stands in the ring with the WCW guys. The NWO are shocked. Great segment, and they seem to be striking a good balance of heating up the heels while keeping the babyfaces strong at this point.

Hogan and Rodman spin like they left Sting laying at Uncensored in a quick segment. Then the Wolfpac cuts a promo in the ring and sings "Bad Boys". They'd get sued for that now unless they had permission. Heenan says they are no Isley Brothers. Holy dated reference!

DDP tells Savage he's a dead man walking and is about to walk away when Savage and Liz show up in the crowd with mic in hand. After some antagonizing, DDP chases Savage through the crowd.

Austin with another scorching hot promo before the match. Kind of a nothing match until all of the run-ins start. Looking back, this is really all Steve Austin's fault. Sid wins. After the match, Bret does his famous profanity-filled tirade. Vince's bump was awesome. Bret's tope on Undertaker was awesome. Everything about this was great. You might be tricked into thinking WM13 would be a hell of a show.

Sneaking in Clique signs on your way to the ring to say hi to your friends on the other side is so 1997. Shawn claims he found his smile back in San Antonio where he left it, and he has decided to bring it with him wherever he goes. Shawn jokes about being difficult to deal with. Shawn stumbles over what is happening with his knee and invites himself to Wrestlemania. Vince is seriously in love with this guy. Weird that this promo had to be rehearsed, as Vince is mouthing Shawn's words.

This thread was actually an interview earlier in the show, not the post-match profanity. Bret is starting to get booed, and this is a great "I'm about to turn" interview. Looking forward to reliving this run.

We get a clip of Christine Todd Whitman repealing a tax bill that allows the WWF to run shows in the state again. Ah, the smell of corporatism and bought off politicians. Mascarita Sagrada gets over huge with this New York crowd, and I do think he could have had a good run if his being over didn't go against everything about wrestling that the company believes to be true. Fun match.

Seeing potential in Sting in 1987 feels like hindsight being 20/20. No one saw potential in him until the draw with Flair, which is precisely why the Clash match is so remembered.

I don't like comparing New Japan juniors booking to All Japan heavies booking. This is a midcard title and that long of a chase for something that isn't scratching the main event scene feels like overkill. If we're doing fantasy booking, Ultimo could have held the J Crown until either the Tokyo Dome show or 2/9, dropped it to Otani (where Otani would avenge his J Crown loss), and Otani could have finally crossed paths with Liger in October in his biggest test to date. Liger could have spent the year after returning from his brain tumor re-establishing himself. He works all year to return to top form and finally gets his shot in October to prove that he's as good as he ever was. Meanwhile, Otani has successful defenses against Kanemoto, Sasuke, Takaiwa, Samurai and everyone else Liger faced during his title run.

Again, the rivalry didn't really start until 1996. Then recall what happened in 1996: * Liger gets IWGP back from Koji * Koji & Shinji get title shotes in early 1996 with Liger retaining * Liger put over Sasuke for the title in April * Liger puts over BT in Super Juniors to set up Eddy for title shot * Skydiving J to set up J Crown * Sasuke (i.e. IWGP Champ) gets J Crown * Liger had brain tumor * Dragon gets J Crown Then on 01/04/97, Liger wins the J Crown so that the Big 3 (Liger and his two indy rivials) have all passed it around). It's not like Liger has had a lot of time to put over Ohtani, nor in a way that wouldn't have gotten in the way of that rather good booking job he did for the balance of the year. It's now Feb, and he just got the belt(s) back from Dragon. This isn't exactly 2000 WWF where the titles bounce around every week. Instead, he does set up Shinji for a run later in the year. If Otani wasn't going over here, why do this match so soon? As much as I loved it, Otani lost to Samurai in January the year before. Then he lost to Liger (three days after beating Benoit) in March. Then he lost in the semis at the J Crown to Ultimo. Then he lost to Liger here. That doesn't sound like someone being set up for a big title run. It sounds like someone who can't get a meaningful win over a native. Liger liked to play the bitch?

Just finished listening to this show after listening to the first half last night and really enjoyed it. Dylan is awesome of course, but I always enjoy hearing the voice of Dave Musgrave. This Nation of Islam guy seems really cool too. One addition: When business started tanking in 1992, the WWF apparently really wanted Luger on the road, but he did have a no-compete with WCW through the end of 1992.

I loved Cory Maclin's weird enunciation. "YOU-nified title!"

Savage was working that match with a bad elbow injury too.

Book to your heart's content. A side note: If you take the time out of your day to read and/or post on a pro wrestling message board, you lose all rights and privileges to accuse others of needing to get laid, come out of their basements and all of the other standard insults. So don't go there. That said, keep it not creepy, please.