Loss

It almost didn't matter that no one really thought wrestling was real. Wrestling thought wrestling was real. To this day, there is a clear difference between wrestlers who are inspired and connected to the material and those who aren't.

I actually consider 2 1/2 years some impressive longevity in general, but especially in that time period. None of Hogan's contemporaries in the late 90s had an uninterrupted run as the top heel that lasted that long, including Bret, Shawn, Vince or any of the other top wrestlers in WCW. That's not terribly shorter than the Crockett run on TBS or Hogan's first WWF title reign. I guess I consider anything longer than a year "long term".

There is a lot I want to say after finishing the show, but as a matter of convenience, could each of you post your top 20 lists, honorable mentions, Observer awards, etc.? Thanks.

Wrestling was better in the past because it worked harder at giving off the illusion of being real, but I agree that I don't think the masses ever thought that. Because the performers, scenarios, customs and working style were more plausible, it was easier to suspend disbelief though, and most things had way more heat. Still, I think in some ways there is more delusion than ever among people within wrestling, primarily because the fan base has gotten smart and often works the performers into doing stupid things instead of the other way around. Here's a question just to play devil's advocate. Let's say we are right on the point of believability. Why is it so much harder to get a crowd hot than it used to be? Is it just a matter of changing culture, or have wrestlers gotten less sharp over time at manipulating emotions?

The answer is yes. Hollywood Hulk Hogan.

To that point, WCW using the white mat on some shows during the early part of the year was a drastic improvement, as it made the arena look bigger and all the characters look more colorful. I wish they had stuck with it. It's a stark difference between wrestling and theatre, where a black floor is usually ideal for that reason. It's amazing how much more "alive" wrestling looks in general with a white mat.

I listened to the first half on the beach today. Great stuff so far. I should compliment you guys on how you've built your rapport with each other over time. You really sound like two friends chatting it up, which is a big positive. I say this in a completely positive way even though it sounds odd to say, but the strong difference in your accents works for whatever reason. Also, congrats to Chad the exposure his writing has gotten recently. JVK, I will answer the questions you posed when I am done with the podcast. The first thing I'd comment on is Garvin/Tully from the Bash '86 comm release, as the high ranking surprised me. That's something I need to check out. Interestingly enough, I've never really heard anything from that particular release talked up much at all. I've never sat down to watch Flair vs Dusty, or if I have it's been ages and I don't remember. I seem to remember some people really liking Flair/Hawk, but it sounds like you've both been down on the Road Warriors overall. I also think Bobby Fulton is a perfectly good Top 10 pick. He was a charismatic guy and had some really terrific high-end matches during a really terrific high-end time period. I'll talk more about Arn after finishing the show. You guys actually like the Flair/Arn/Tully vs Sting/Luger Windham six-man even more than me, although I haven't watched it in a few years, so I might like it more with a rewatch. In fact, aside from the Flair/Garvin cage match where Garvin won the title (which I'm hoping is still to come in the rankings), I haven't really watched any JCP in years. I feel motivated to do so now. A note on the Ric Flair/Jimmy Garvin cage match: I agree that the match comes across REALLY well on the Bash '87 comm. I'm not sure if I should encourage you to seek out the unclipped version that's on Worldwide or not, but it will really ruin that match for you. I used to love it myself and not understand why it didn't have more of a rep. When I watched the full match, it was surprisingly heatless, despite being one of the most emotional matches of the 80s when watching the clipped version. Flair's constant swearing in that match is a riot. Regarding the Tommy Young spot of kicking hands off the ropes, the rules of wrestling are technically that in order to break a hold, wrestlers should be in the ropes, not reaching for them. So ... just reaching out and touching the ropes should not necessitate the breaking of a hold, but getting tangled up *in* the ropes should. I understand the confusion, as that has been so inconsistently enforced through the years that I'm not even really sure anyone knows that rule anymore. Most of the time, just reaching for the ropes is enough to break a hold. That was actually a really weird thing for me with WWF style around the early 00s when submissions actually started getting over as match finishers. Reaching the ropes was valiant and a strong underdog babyface thing to do, when I grew up on wrestling where it was something Ric Flair did as a semi-slimy thing because he wasn't good enough to break the hold through actually wrestling his way out of it. One of many examples of context being so important in wrestling.

I don't buy it either, because the outward rage like that isn't really HHH's style based on pretty much everything everyone has ever said about him. He seems more like the type that would manipulate someone else into thinking it was their idea to change the finish when he was the one who wanted that all along.

I'm starting to wonder if we should consider Ric Flair in this category.

Downloading this from iTunes (which is taking FOREVER on this connection -- the wi-fi here stinks) so I can listen to it this week while on the beach in the Dominican Republic. Can't wait!

Jeff Jarrett vs Billy Joe Travis (USWA 01/26/90, Guitar on a Pole Match) Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Sting, Lex Luger & Barry Windham (NWA Main Event 04/03/88) Lightning Kid vs Jerry Lynn (PWA 04/90) Vader vs Sting (WCW Great American Bash 07/12/92) Great Sasuke vs Jinsei Shinzaki (Michinoku Pro 04/29/94) Ric Flair vs Ron Garvin (NWA World Championship Wrestling 12/28/85) Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat (AJPW 05/25/92) Bret Hart & Davey Boy Smith vs Owen Hart & Bob Backlund (WWF Action Zone 02/26/95) Samoa Joe vs Necro Butcher (IWA Mid South 06/11/05)

I don't know that it matters so much anymore, as it's all in how wrestlers are presented, but Miz was a transplanted personality from reality TV, and it did sort of make it seem like anyone off the street can become WWE champ with a little bit of training. It's not David Arquette winning the WCW World title bad, but I remember Kevin Nash arguing something about Miz being a questionable choice for champ for that reason, and me thinking it wasn't completely without merit.

Miz would probably mean more to the bottom line if he was an obnoxious manager who was able to take bumps instead of a wrestler who we are supposed to see as credible. Even a half wrestler/manager like Eddie Gilbert in the UWF would be a better use of him.

Welcome! 1990 is the most novel yearbook, but along with 1991 it lays the groundwork for some stuff that really starts to pay off in a big way in 1992, especially in Japan.

The only issue was that post-Clash, TV dried up quite a bit. For the rest of the year, there aren't even very many marquee matches. The reason was that Dusty thought business was down because they gave away too much at the Clash.

Most wrestling fans don't pay close attention to what they're watching, which makes it easy to do stuff like this.

Daniel Bryan may never turn into a huge draw, but his push to the top is still in progress, and it's ridiculous to call this a failure based on one television rating. That reactionary mindset is really how wrestling ended up in the doldrums that it's in. It's interesting how Vince is always patient with big guys he's pushing on top, but a small guy being pushed on top who isn't an immediate huge sensation is cause for panic.

I suspect they are. WWE would hardly be disappointed by a lot of those pre-Hogan numbers.

The WON at the time said Starrcade did about 20,000 buys, which is still impressive.

There also may be a late entrant.

He also goes overboard shilling for whatever company he works for, and it has destroyed his credibility. He's great at diagnosing the problems in modern wrestling, but he sure doesn't know the right medicine to prescribe to fix them.

"Iron Mountain" would be a great wrestling name for a big man. (We use Iron Mountain for off-site storage at work. I've never been there, but had the opportunity to tour once and wasn't able to do so because of a scheduling conflict.)

It was speculated, but neither Dave nor MKJ ever came out and said, "This is what happened."

Haven't most reliable sources exposed that as bullshit? No. It was in the WON at the time. I think the confusion is that it was refuted in between the murders and the WON going out, and then the WON confirmed that it was actually true.

There was probably some overreaction in these parts at the time, but part of that was how cavalier so many people seemed to be about it. Years later, that they've gotten only more cavalier makes sense. I have no problem with people enjoying Benoit matches, but turning that into a crusade is where I am lost. He killed his 7-year old son by choking him to death with his wrestling finisher. That's worth emphasizing. The wrestling response was to pretend Benoit never existed and personally attack anyone who made a valid point about the business or steroids. Blaming wrestling for what Benoit did is probably taking it a stretch too far, since wrestlers don't habitually kill their children. But WWE's ultra-defensive response that ended up with the credibility of their wellness policy destroyed by a dozen suspensions was pretty bad.