Loss
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Everything posted by Loss
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What is the job of a wrestler? I'm not. -
Will listen soon, as Dillon is an interesting interview subject. My favorite Vince logic story: Some in his inner circle were challenging him on signing Mike Tyson for Wrestlemania XIV, because his sticker price was so high that they may lose money. But Vince knew what they needed more than anything at that point was eyeballs watching them. He said he'd rather lose money on 500,000 buys than make money on 300,000, which I always thought was genius.
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We can have the argument over and over forever as long as I'm concerned. The difference of opinion is the starting point for conversation, not the end of it.
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A great wrestler can work past limitations to put on a good match. If they can't, they're not great. "Compelling things" should equal good matches. "Compelling things" do typically make good matches. If they don't, they were never really that compelling to begin with, right? The point of doing "compelling things" is to channel them into a good match. That's the purpose. Otherwise, why do them? And if they don't result in a good match, they simply aren't that compelling. It's not like Earthquake said, "I'm going to make a deliberate effort to stink up the joint, but I'll make sure to magnificently work this bearhug."
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It's been surprising to me watching 1990 and early 1991 how hard DiBiase was pushed and how much he was protected even when he wasn't in the main event. No heel in the company was booked to get their heat back as consistently as DiBiase. He was so comfortable in his act that I understand why he was booked that way. He's a lot like Flair in that he could put people over in convincing fashion and not lose a thing. It says a lot for him that he was one of the few heels that slid down the card after the big run on top and continued to be an interesting, over wrestler for a long time anyway. That talent is powerful when harnessed properly, because he knew how to make the company's pet projects look good and keep himself strong at the same time. I'm excited about walking through the Virgil feud in full.
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The same restrictions that exist in the macro exist in the micro. Remember, WWE banned DDTs and piledrivers, doesn't allow leg hooks for pin attempts that aren't finishes, etc. It's a skewed metric that unfairly rewards wrestlers for piss-poor matches.
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Assuming it's not the best metric, then the opposite must be true -- WWF wrestlers are not allowed to take pride in their craft, thus making any discussion of the quality of their work pointless. I don't agree with that, but I also think we can only judge wrestlers by the reality of their careers.
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It's the perfect metric, and it's a fair metric. Who had the better career? It just means it's impossible for a wrestler whose prime is primarily in that company to be a GOAT candidate. Bret Hart gets penalized for working in the WWF. Tough. I'm not going to pretend he didn't work there.
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Because there's more to a match than layout. There's also execution. I have a feeling, Matt, if you and me were given two competent wrestlers, a finish and a timeframe to do it in, we could lay out an excellent match between them, provided we had the time and resources we need. That still doesn't mean it would be any good. The skeleton of a good match may shine through, but it may still have major flaws because of the limitations of the wrestlers. That shouldn't be confused with what I said before. I do think every match has the potential to be good. But that doesn't mean it will be. It's not hard to lay out a good match in advance. But WWE doesn't always lay out good matches in advance, and even if they do, there is no guarantee that it will be executed properly. I'm reminded of Doug Furnas hating working in the WWF, because he felt like having good matches was secondary to hitting time cues.
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Shoots are interesting for sure. Flair's shoot made him out to be pretty dense. But I worry about putting too much stock in them. What's more important - being able to do good things, or being able to articulate why they did good things? Bret no doubt put more thought into his matches than Flair. Flair, and I can really see this point of view, felt planning things out in advance was antithesis to actually working, where your job is to react in the moment and think on your feet. I don't think he puts much value in memorizing spots and sequences, because anyone can lay out a match in advance that's really good. There is a difference between working and performing. That's one of my favorite Steve Austin quotes. "Wrestlers no longer work. They perform." Things have disintegrated in WWE to the point that Jericho took it as a major point of pride that he was able to call a PPV match on the fly against Shelton Benjamin. That meticulous planning started with the Savage/Steamboat series, continued with Bret and now, most wrestlers have no improvisational skills to speak of.
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I do think Bret Hart may be the best "finish guy" in the history of the company. He had a knack for doing clever finishes that were unique, satisfying and made sense within the storyline.
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Last few minutes of what looks to be a pretty heated match. I want to check this out in full sometime. Dan Spivey attacks Luger after he makes the hot tag to Sting, but Sting is busy fighting off Doom and doesn't see what's going on. Sting is thrown over the top for a DQ. It's really cool how Doom worked with almost all of the top singles stars in the company on big shows -- Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, Barry Windham, Sting and Lex Luger. Their breakup is coming, which is unfortunate, as I saw no reason for the run to end. And it's really weird/cool hearing Dusty already in WCW when he started the same disc in the WWF.
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Terry Garvin (!) brings out a blind man in a wheelchair. He is wearing sunglasses and is in a wheelchair. Brother Love confirms that the man cannot walk or see. Brother Love asks people at home to put their hands on the screen, then puts his own hand on the guy's face and suddenly, he can walk and see! "REJOICE!" he screams. "REJOICE!" This is SOOOOO over the top and incredible and creepy and funny all at once. Outstanding.
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Excellent six-man with Kawada taking center stage. The feud with Taue bookends the match, with a mini-Kawada/Jumbo feud happening in the middle. The first half of this is solid offense and aggression from Misawa's camp. Jumbo finally has enough of Kawada cheapshotting him and turns the tide on sheer will alone. I love that he loses his temper and finally gives Kawada his payback, but still never really stops selling the effects of Kawada's attack. In a really cool moment, after playing FIP for a while, Kawada is about to tag Misawa and Taue pushes him into Misawa, who crashes to the floor and is a non-factor for the rest of the match. Kawada teases a final comeback, but Jumbo refuses to let it happen and Taue pins Kawada after a powerbomb. Some of the guys involved in this are bit players, so I don't think this is one of the elite six-mans of the era. But it's still a very good one that furthers the Kawada/Taue issue and builds anticipation for me to see the upcoming Kawada/Jumbo matches in '91.
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An all-time classic vignette with great production that was pretty cutting edge for the time. Barry and Arn are in a junkyard with a black and white effect talking tough and taking a sledgehammer to stuff. It amazes me that WCW could produce brilliant things like this occasionally and couldn't enhance their entire production approach to match it. They obviously had at least one person somewhere with a vision. That's to say nothing of how great Arn and Barry are in this. Just tremendous all around.
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What's shown of this is excellent. Dundee cleans house with Cornette's racket and he and Lawler get DQ'd as a result. Post-match, the Fabs hang Dundee. Jeff Jarrett tries to make a save and gets knocked off the apron. Dundee, the Fabs & Cornette and Lawler all have comments about this. I really loved the post-match angle and all three promos. It's fun to see Cornette in a feud where he's actually allowed to get heat for the first time in a while, and all of these guys interacting with each other just feels very fresh. Let this feud continue!
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After watching 1990 and early 1991, I have new respect for Jeff Jarrett. I don't think he's a Top 10 pick. But no way is he not Top 20. Super worker.
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I will demonstrate my knowledge of wrestling in 2012! I have never heard of these promotions: I have no idea what promotions these guys booked: I have no idea which promotion these guys promoted: I have never heard of: And I don't know who Jon Fitch is.
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Let me read through this thread again when I have more time later today so I understand what exactly is being proposed. I haven't been paying attention. From there, I'll determine the best way to set it up.
I hope you rewatch the match after seeing all the buildup. The match delivered based on what the feud was -- two guys working a match that neither one wanted to take, but both felt like they had to take, in order to make a bigger point. It wasn't a blood feud, so when people talk about how it should have been a brawl, I think they are missing the point.