Loss

Let's put them all in this folder. I ask everyone to start a new thread for every single new podcast instead of having a megathread to discuss a series of them. That way, good points don't get lost in long, multi-page threads. I'm going to split up previous topics and add them here.

Remind me -- did they work the bearhug into a pin spot at Starrcade? I've always loved that spot, and it's something I've really only seen done in Flair/Luger matches. I'm sure they didn't create it, but I don't recall seeing it in other matches.

Want to put DiBiase under the microscope? Maybe do so in this new forum?

This new forum is a place for anyone to make the case for any wrestler as whatever they think they should be -- overrated, underrated, GOAT candidate, and so on. You can add YouTube links, match reviews and general thoughts into it over time. The threads can be used to debate the merits of the case being made, and can be bumped anytime. I think it'll make a good reference, and at some point, I'll scour the board and look for existing topics that we can plunk there.

Shawn has been involved in lots of memorable angles. I am trying to think of a single really great interview I've ever seen from him and I'm struggling. Losing his smile may actually be the best one.

I think the Referee of the Year thing was legit. Joe Higuchi of All Japan won it quite a few times too, IIRC. JJ Dillon quit with very little or no notice to take the WWF office job. I think someone with power liked Hiro and wanted to give him a payday/something to do, so they tried this. I don't know that there was more thought put into it than that, but yeah, it bombed.

Anyone ever see this show? It was the first super indy show of its kind, but I'm not sure what to include from it.

I know what the WON says. I was merely pointing out that it was in the WON in November that they were talking to Steamboat about coming in. He later came in. Therefore, it wasn't that much of a surprise. It wasn't this well-kept secret. It's more likely that he just didn't consider Steamboat when talking about 1989 because it wasn't on his mind, not that he didn't know there was a possibility he might show up. Steamboat was coming off of a long absence and hadn't really been a challenger for a World title in a very long time. Steamboat had great matches with Savage, but hadn't exactly been setting the world on fire otherwise since 1983. I'm going to pull a jdw on Luger revisionism. It's not so much that liking Luger is revisionist. It's more that liking Luger is something people stopped doing because he never met his potential as a headliner, to a point that people forgot how much potential he had at that level once upon a time. He is a flawed performer for sure, but a guy who got a ****1/2 rating in the WON for a PPV main event he had in 1988, who is fondly remembered by some people who post here, is not revisionism. Revisionism would be Dave calling it a disappointing match at the time, and us watching now and loving it, leaving us to wonder what he was thinking. Regal/Arn at SuperBrawl IV is revisionist. Luger is more remembering what was later downplayed or forgotten. The last thing I would say is that I don't think PWO is a monolith. When you talk about the opinion of this board, you're talking about the opinions of a pretty diverse cross-section of people. What we all have in common is that we like pro wrestling more than the average bear. Most of us probably like it more than the above average bear too. I have had debates over just about everything with you, jdw, goodhelmet, SLL, Dylan Waco, Nintendo Logic, MJH, ohtani's jacket, FLIK, Tim Evans, soup23, tomk and others that I'm sure I'm leaving out. There are probably things the majority of us agree on, but I wouldn't call PWO a board that has an opinion. Corporations aren't people, my friend.

He wasn't confirmed before then, but he was rumored enough that it wasn't really a huge surprise that he was eventually signed. Dave didn't mention him because while the Flair/Steamboat series was pretty great, he didn't really do anything except have great matches. And while Flair and Steamboat had great matches many years before, I don't know that everyone expected the '89 series to be so good in advance. Dave's point was more of a State of the Business point than a State of the Quality point.

Here is all the 1998 US indy stuff that was on the DVDVR list or made a Schneider comp. Is this everything that should be considered? I'm guessing all of this won't go on, but I want to make sure we have a good starting point. Venom & Cham Pain vs Surge & Kid Dynamo (NWA 2000 01/03/98) Ace Darling vs Devon Storm vs Reckless Youth vs Lance Diamond (ECWA 01/17/98) Sabu & Rob Van Dam vs Hardy Boyz (ASW 02/11/98) American Kickboxer vs Suicide Kid vs Tarek the Great (IWA Mid South 02/21/98) Reckless Youth vs Super Nova vs Devon Storm vs Ace Darling (JAPW 03/22/98) Ace Darling vs Mike Quackenbush (ECWA Super 8 04/21/98) Chris Benoit vs Chris Jericho (Pillman Memorial 04/29/98) Serial Thrillaz vs Death & Destruction (OMEGA 05/08/98) Reckless Youth vs Mike Quackenbush (ECWA 07/18/98) Willow the Whisp vs Shannon Moore (MCW TV 07/18/98) Venom vs Cham Pain & Otto Schwanz (OMEGA 07/24/98) Hardy Boyz vs Venom & Shane Helms (OMEGA 07/24/98) Willow the Whisp vs Kid Dynamo (OMEGA 07/24/98, 2/3 falls) Joey Matthews vs Kid Dynamo vs Ice (OMEGA 07/31/98, Ladder Match) Surge vs Willow The Whisp (OMEGA 07/31/98) Robert Thompson vs Erin O'Grady (APW 07/98) Christopher Daniels vs Suicide Kid (APW 08/07/98) Don Montoya vs Mike Quackenbush (FWA 09/12/98) Ace Darling vs Christian Cage (ECWA 09/26/98) Christopher Daniels & Kevin Quinn vs Danny Dominion & Ace Steele (NWA 50th Anniversary 10/24/98) Eddy Guerrero & Chris Jericho vs Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko (Hildebrand Tribute 11/29/98) Reckless Youth vs Stevie Richards (Steel City 11/98) Hardy Boyz vs Serial Thrillaz (OMEGA 12/05/98)

Dave knew Steamboat was signed. It wasn't a secret. He had been negotiating since November and it was reported in the WON.

The NWA booking philosophy was actually that by keeping the belt on heels, they were giving the babyfaces something to shoot for. There's a reason movies don't focus on the happily ever after. The path there is way more interesting. There always needs to be some type of challenge for babyfaces to overcome, to keep them interesting. Vince disagreed, and the WWF philosophy worked for them. I think the NWA philosophy could have worked as well if Flair was seen as more unbeatable and less lucky. I agree that they needed to start re-thinking this approach when they were on national cable TV, and when selling PPVs became secondary to drawing a house.

I actually think Flair saying he'd never have a match with Luger again backfired when you get into early '89 TV. By not giving fans a rematch, and making that such a key point, they were in effect building anticipation for a rematch. It's a match they could have returned to in fall of '89 with the roles reversed, and it would have been a big success, because it would have been completely fresh. I think that was the plan at one point, and it got away from them.

Just listened to Part 2. Good show. Just so you know, I kept trying to talk to you guys while listening. I like you guys and thought you were pretty open-minded. I wish I could say the same for your guest, who seems like a nice guy who I would probably be friends with if I knew him. But we would argue about wrestling all the time. The Luger "not giving a shit" talk and Road Warrior Hawk criticism made me want to shout, but everyone is entitled I suppose. I'll let him live for now.

Not even remotely the case. Bobby Eaton gets a reaction because he is a charismatic in-ring heel. Cornette helped him by giving him the opportunity to work some memorable programs. But he was not a passive part of what got the MX over by any means. Cornette's job was to heat up the issue before the match. Eaton's job was to keep them hooked during the match. He did that quite well. It was the job of all the MX, including Cornette, to keep them hooked during the match. Jimbo was one of the very best managers at being a part of the match, without having to step all over the match. It truly was a three man team from the moment their music hit to the post match. There were some things that Cornette was more dominant in (pre-match and post match) than others. But even a short match like Clash I... he's very much part of a three man team, and not in the sense of someone being "The Fifth Beatle". I agree that Bobby gets reactions in the ring because he's a terrific in-ring heel as part of a terrific trio. Just don't want to short change Cornette's role in the arenas, which was strong. John This is 100% true. I think I was so focused on making the point that Bobby Eaton was a very talented performer -- and not just because he was athletic -- that I glossed over Cornette's role. You're right. They were a unit.

Danny Davis needs a partner since Brickhouse Brown was laid out by the chairshot. Ken Wayne is out and suggests they team up, despite their differences in the past. We've got a match! It's all a trick, as the first time Davis tries to tag in, Wayne will have none of it. He ends up punching him and then we have a three-on-one situation. It's a shame, because this match was looking good. Brickhouse Brown makes a quick save, but gets plastered with a chair again. Dirty White Girl tries to intervene, and some woman with Brown attacks her. She's billed as Sweet Georgia Brown. I'm sad, I was hoping for a one-time Nightmares reunion.

Every heel in the promotion (Jeff Gaylord turned again?) is out to celebrate Eddie Gilbert winning the Southern title from Jeff Jarrett on Monday night. I can't stop laughing at Jeff Gaylord being such an idiot in the background. Tojo declares Eddie Gilbert the real new king and they even present him with a crown. Eddie Marlin is furious to see all of this. This is a wrasslin' show, damnit! Eddie Gilbert runs through the Top 10 in the territory. Ricky Steamboat and Terry Gordy are on there, which is some impressive carny bullshit, considering that they don't even work there. Brickhouse Brown jumps Dirty White Boy during all of this and gets in some good shots, but ultimately gets smacked with a chair. In a funny note, there was something in the WON at the time that Steamboat hadn't been asked and wouldn't say yes, even if he was. They were just sort of pretending he was working in the territory.

Eddie Marlin has joined the Dundees for this interview.

Babyface match. The storyline is that Danny Davis has taken Maggs under his wing. Maggs quickly gets desperate and starts bending the rules. Lawler tries again to wrestle by the rules and Maggs won't have it. Lawler puts an INCREDIBLE forearm across Maggs face to try breaking the hold. Really, I can't do it justice. Finally, Lawler gives him a little dose of his own medicine and the fists are a-flyin'. Great sub-5 minute match! Danny Davis out to chastise Maggs, because that's not what he taught him. After the match, Lawler cuts a disappointed interview, saying he was looking forward to wrestling Maggs and it's a shame he had to get dirty. Highlights of what looks to be a super match between Jarrett and Gilbert at Mid South Coliseum. It would be awesome to see this one in full. Sam Bass runs down after a ref bump and eats a piledriver. Gilbert throws fire at Jarrett, then pins him for an easy three count. Lawler does a super serious promo hyping a Lawler/Gilbert match at Mid South Coliseum on Monday. Excellent!

Really fun TV match. The storyline is that Dustin is trying to last 10 minutes against DiBiase. They put together a really solid match. Sapphire cuddling her Million Dollar Man buddy on the outside cracks me up, because I didn't realize she was ever at ringside. The fans are hooked on every two-count where it looks like DiBiase might be upset. This really is one of the better cases for DiBiase knowing who he was and really creating the perfect match for the storyline and setting. Time calls add so much to the drama in this match. I wish the promotion wasn't so dead set against doing them.

Brother Love is still selling the DDT. He kills me in this because he's so funny. DO YOU SEE THE SINCERITY IN HIS EYES? Heenan is on an apology tour over the Boss Man insults. Really funny segment. SOOO over the top, both on the part of Heenan and Brother Love. They seem to be trying to top each other.

Well that was quite the match. Really great, fast-paced action. All four of them looked really good, especially Hase. I suspect this will be one of the better NJ tags of the decade.

He made an honest mistake, and handled it as well as can be expected. I hope he'll learn something from this, like that he should have a second set of eyes act as a proofreader.

Not even remotely the case. Bobby Eaton gets a reaction because he is a charismatic in-ring heel. Cornette helped him by giving him the opportunity to work some memorable programs. But he was not a passive part of what got the MX over by any means. Cornette's job was to heat up the issue before the match. Eaton's job was to keep them hooked during the match. He did that quite well. Ideally, yes. But all crowds are not created equal. Crowds are sometimes predisposed to act a certain way, be it because of cultural differences, because they don't get wrestling very often, or because they get wrestling too often. Arrowhead Pond in Anaheim and Nassau Coliseum are two arenas notorious for not reacting to much of anything, even when the wrestlers are working hard. Even WCW crowds differed from WWF crowds. In WCW, you could be a complete no-name with no star potential, but if you had a good match, you'd get a reaction. WWF crowds historically pop for entrance music and finisher teases, and tune out for everything else. Northeast crowds are more smarky than Southern crowds. Even in Japan, there is a difference between Budokan and Korauken. Neither is quite like the crowd that turns up at the Sumo Hall. Just getting a big reaction doesn't impress me much. Hogan got a big reaction because of his charisma, but Hogan also got a big reaction because he was pushed so hard. Without the push, the reaction may not have been there. What impresses me more than *getting* a reaction is *earning* a reaction. Send a wrestler into hostile territory who can keep a crowd involved and he's done something impressive. The crowd starts off uninterested because they aren't into the feud. They are eventually won over by the work in the ring. I've seen the opposite happen too. Fans are really excited about seeing a match, but the wrestlers lay an egg after it starts and completely lose them when they had a great opportunity. There is a difference between Hulk Hogan getting a Hulk-sized reaction because he's Hulk Hogan, and Rey Misterio debuting in the Northeast with people laughing at him because he was so short, and having the building solidly on his side within minutes. That's the art. That's the performance factor. So yes, I agree that predispositions are a part of crowds. But where a crowd starts isn't where they're always going to end. Wrestlers can make the best of a bad situation and cause a cynical, burned out or apathetic audience to be on the edge of their seats if they're doing their jobs right. We've seen it time and time again. It's what makes wrestling awesome. I'm with you except for the promo. I think the more important metric, if you want to assign one, is the ability to get over, and to sell people on what they're seeing. That's a universal standard that can be applied anywhere. Everyone we praise and argue about is capable of doing this in their own special way. The promo isn't an end destination. The promo is a tool to get to the end destination, which is to get a wrestler over, get a match over, get a concept over, get a feud over, get hatred over ... whatever the case may be. If you want to praise DiBiase, praise DiBiase for his ability to do all of those things, with the promo being one of the ways he did those things. Riki Choshu isn't going to cut promos, but Riki Choshu can get the same or better results than DiBiase with tricks that he has up his sleeve. This happens even in the U.S. The Undertaker didn't get over for his promo skills. Andre didn't get over for his promo skills. Jeff Hardy didn't get over on his promo skills. It played a significant part in getting the Road Warriors over. Sting could barely get out a sentence, but he seemed excited. Bret Hart wasn't flashy, but he was sincere. Promo skills aren't a good global category in which to rank wrestlers. But I'm not sure they're a particularly good regional category either. The promo itself is not a commodity. A WM headlined by a Steve Austin promo would do a disappointing buyrate. This has long been a flaw of the WWF. Not so much the focus on the promo, but the focus on the attraction. The WWF has always been booked to get over the people behind the scenes more than the people on camera. Never has that been more true than in the past decade, but it's always been true. Writers write to get the value of writers over, and to downplay the value of wrestlers. The worst thing that can happen in the WWF is for fans to laugh at a locker room vignette. Suddenly, the WWF has decided that their wrestlers are disposable, and that the reason people watch is to laugh at locker room vignettes. So it starts getting force fed and ceases to be funny very quickly. In the late 90s, people sat through a lot of shit to watch Steve Austin and The Rock. The WWF takeaway was that the shit was a draw. They started calling themselves an action-adventure series. The shit was never the draw. The wrestlers were the draw. I used Austin as an example instead of Rock because Rock's promos became an attraction on their own. Rock, Flair in the mid 80s and Lawler in Memphis are really the only people I can think of, where their words are part of the fabric of the show. When I picture mid 80s wrestling on TBS in my head, I see Ric Flair in a suit in a studio, with the World Championship Wrestling logo behind him, wearing sunglasses while Tony Schiavone holds the mic. I see an ugly mustard-colored curtain in the background with Lawler and Lance Russell doing the same when I picture Memphis wrestling. I picture the Rock looking up and holding a microphone in front of an arena when I picture the Attitude era. It's unfair to hold everyone to that standard. Sometimes, an interview just needs to get the job done. Sometimes, all it needs to do is not actively detract from what the promotion is trying to sell us. Sometimes, you just need to get the idea that the wrestler believes what he's saying. Not everyone needs to be Rock, Flair or Lawler. Not everyone can be. That's not to say character work isn't important. Character work is a part of in-ring work. Bobby Eaton is not in his own world. Bobby Eaton gouges eyes, cuts off the ring, beats up guys on the floor behind the referee's back, creates opening for Cornette to use the racket. He sneaks in whatever he can sneak in. Bobby Eaton's mantra was to combine his considerable skill with his lack of scruples. Announcers at the time sold that as every heel's gimmick to a degree. It really was Bobby Eaton's gimmick. He combined amazing wrestling moves with textbook heel tactics. He's one of the best examples ever of that. He could have easily been babyfaced just by being so good in the ring. Watch the crowd reaction at Halloween Havoc. They start to cheer his highspots, so he does something to heel himself again. Compare that to your Kurt Angle types that wrestle the exact same way in the ring whether they are heel or babyface. Compare that to Scott Hall and Kevin Nash shitting on other tag teams by working as babyfaces while being part of the hot heel act in the promotion. That's not a difference of physical ability. That's a mental difference. Bobby Eaton understands wrestling fans better than Hall, Nash or Angle, because when it's time to get in the ring, he can get the exact reaction he wants every time, even if the crowd isn't willing to hand it over to him. Those guys can't do that.

I was expecting their response to be more that they aren't surprised that you would be skeptical that people would leave after watching the Mexicans when there are so many white people left to enjoy. But anyway ...