Loss
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Bix just explained to me that this was a real single. I was thinking it was the New Japan equivalent of Piledriver or something. -
Wow, what is the context for SAPP TIME?
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Oh, I didn't mean you should have known or anything like that. (Jingus should, considering how long he has been around, but I'll leave him alone. ) It was more that I thought we were having a very specific discussion. Not that you can't add whatever you want to the thread. My intent was more to explain the norms of discussion on wrestling message boards, not to say that this is even the right way or the preferred way. I think when looking at a wrestler as a total package, it is absolutely something that should be considered. But we don't often do that. Maybe we should. But we don't. And I think the main reason is something MJH touched on - we talk about wrestling globally, and it's not fair to consider it in every conversation since it's not something important in every culture. Maybe there are universal "outside the ring" things that can be considered, but the bell-to-bell time is the one thing wrestling all over the world has in common. That's why it is referenced the most.
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I don't think that was Nintendo Logic's point. It was more that he thought we were debating the ringwork of Flair and Bret. I did too, and we were the loudest people in that thread, so it was one area where we agreed. If you want to debate where Flair and Bret rank as all around performers compared to each other, that's fine, but it does annoy me when people bring mic work into a conversation when the conversation solely about ringwork is well under way, because it seems like a distraction. It's not to say that promo skills aren't important. I just like defining the scope of the debate early on, then sticking to it. As an all around performer (carrying yourself as a top guy, cutting promos, being true to your character, working angles in a way that make them stand out, getting people excited to see upcoming matches), Bret has his positives, but I think most would agree that Flair blows him away.
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I'll put it this way: GOAT workers and GOAT wrestlers are going to be two different lists. Hogan is #1 on one of them for me. Flair is #1 on one of them for me. There's nothing wrong with debating the all-around performing ability of a wrestler, as long as it's clear that's what we're doing, and everyone is on the same page on that.
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Mic work is very important when debating mic work. In-ring ability is very important when debating in-ring ability. I don't think very many people would say that the ability to speak effectively isn't important in wrestling. It's just that the default scope of every argument is ring work unless otherwise specified.
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Here's a list of all the MMA that it sounds like needs to be featured between 1997 and 2003. Is this complete? Should anything be added? What I want to capture is MMA that is important to the story of pro wrestling, not just MMA that's good MMA. 1997 Nobuhiko Takada vs Rickson Gracie (PRIDE 10/11/97) Kazushi Sakuraba vs Conan Silvera (UFC Ultimate Japan 12/21/97) 1998 Kazushi Sakuraba vs Carlos Newton (PRIDE 06/24/98) Nobuhiko Takada vs Rickson Gracie (PRIDE 10/11/98) 1999 Naoya Ogawa vs Gary Goodridge (PRIDE 07/04/99) Kazushi Sakuraba vs Royler Gracie (PRIDE 11/21/99) 2000 Kazuyuki Fujita vs Hans Nijman (PRIDE 01/30/00) Kazuyuki Fujita vs Don Chase (Extreme Shootout 04/01/00) Kazuyuki Fujita vs Will Childs (Extreme Shootout 04/01/00) Kazushi Sakuraba vs Royce Gracie (PRIDE 05/01/00) Kazuyuki Fujita vs Mark Kerr (PRIDE 05/01/00) Mark Coleman vs Kazuyuki Fujita (PRIDE 05/01/00) Kendo Kashin vs Ryan Gracie (PRIDE 08/27/00) Kazuyuki Fujita vs Ken Shamrock (PRIDE 08/27/00) Kazushi Sakuraba vs Renzo Gracie (PRIDE 08/27/00) Kazuyuki Fujita vs Gilbert Yvel (PRIDE 12/09/00) Kazushi Sakuraba vs Ryan Gracie (PRIDE 12/23/00) Are all 7 of these necessary? Great Sasuke & Daijiro Matsui vs Akira Shoji & Kaoru Uno (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00) Bas Rutten & Alexander Otsuka vs Naoki Sano & Ricco Rodriguez (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00) Shinya Hashimoto vs Gary Goodridge (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00) Mark Coleman & Mark Kerr vs Takashi Iizukia & Yuji Nagata (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00) Naoya Ogawa vs Tadao Yasuda (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00) Kazushi Sakuraba vs Kendo Kashin (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00) Nobuhiko Takada & Keiji Muto vs Ken Shamrock & Don Frye (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/00) 2001 Tadao Yasuda vs Masaaki Satake (PRIDE 03/25/01) Yoshihiro Takayama vs Kazayuki Fujita (PRIDE 05/27/01) Kendo Kashin vs Ryan Gracie (PRIDE 07/29/01) Kazuyuki Fujita vs Mirko Cro Cop (K-1 08/19/01) Yoshihiro Takayama vs Semmy Schilt (PRIDE 12/23/01) Kendo Kashin vs Shingo Koyasu (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/01) Yuji Nagata vs Mirko Cro Cop (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/01) Antonio Inoki slaps everyone (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/01) 2002 Bob Sapp vs Yoshihisa Yammamoto (PRIDE 04/28/02) Bob Sapp vs Kiyoshi Tamura (PRIDE 06/23/02) Yoshihiro Takayama vs Don Frye (PRIDE 21 06/23/02) Kazuyuki Fujita vs Tadao Yasuda (UFO Legend 08/08/02) Bob Sapp vs Antonio Nogueira (PRIDE 08/28/02) Kazushi Sakuraba vs Mirko Cro Cop (PRIDE 08/28/02) Yoshihiro Takayama vs Bob Sapp (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/02) Shinsuke Nakamura vs Daniel Gracie (Inoki Bom Ba Ye 12/31/02) 2003 Shinsuke Nakamura vs Jan Nortje (NJPW Ultimate Crush 05/02/03) Kazuyuki Fujita vs Manabu Nakanishi (PRIDE 05/02/03) Kazuyuki Fujita vs Fedor Emelianenko (PRIDE 06/08/03) Shinsuke Nakamura vs Shane Eitner (Jungle Fight 09/13/03)
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New Japan Samurai TV that looks interesting to me: NJPW Samurai TV 03/13/99 (Pg 1816) Shinjiro Otani & Tatsuhito Takaiwa vs El Samurai & Gran Hamada NJPW Samurai TV 04/10/99 (Pg 1764) Jushin Liger, Great Sasuke, El Samurai, Masao Orihara & Maasaki Mochizuki vs Shinjiro Otani, Koji Kanemoto, Dr. Wagner Jr., Kendo Ka Shin & Tatsuhito Takaiwa (NJPW 02/14/99) NJPW Samurai TV 04/16/99 (Pg 1764) Genichiro Tenryu & Shiro Koshinaka vs Tatsumi Fujinami & Kazuo Yamazaki (NJPW 02/14/99) NJPW Samurai TV 04/23/99 (Pg 1764) Jushin Liger & Dr. Wagner Jr. vs Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 03/06/99) NJPW Samurai TV 04/30/99 (Pg 1764) Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto vs Dr. Wagner Jr. & Kendo Ka Shin (NJPW 03/06/99) NJPW Samurai TV 05/15/99 (Pg 1764) Shinjiro Otani & Tatsuhito Takaiwa vs Dr. Wagner Jr. & El Samurai (NJPW 03/22/99) Jushin Liger vs Kendo Ka Shin (NJPW 03/22/99) NJPW Samurai TV 05/29/99 (Pg 1781) Jushin Liger & El Samurai vs Shocker & Black Cat (NJPW 04/21/99) NJPW Samurai TV 06/18/99 (Pg 1782) Jushin Liger & El Samurai vs Shinjiro Otani & Kendo Ka Shin (NJPW 05/03/99) NJPW Samurai TV 06/25/99 (Pg 1782) Jushin Liger, El Samurai, Gran Hamada & Kendo Ka Shin vs Minoru Tanaka, Tatsuhito Takaiwa, Masao Orihara & Shocker (NJPW 05/19/99) NJPW Samurai TV 07/02/99 (Pg 1782) El Samurai, Kendo Ka Shin, Dr. Wagner Jr. & Shocker vs Koji Kanemoto, Minoru Tanaka, Tatsuhito Takaiwa & Maasaki Mochizuki (NJPW 05/25/99) NJPW Samurai TV 07/17/99 (Pg 1735) Dr. Wagner Jr., Kendo Ka Shin, El Samurai & Gran Hamada vs Tatsuhito Takaiwa, Shocker, Masao Orihara & Maasaki Mochizuki (NJPW 05/31/99) NJPW Samurai TV 07/24/99 (Pg 1735) Shinjiro Otani, Dr. Wagner Jr., Koji Kanemoto & Maasaki Mochizuki vs Kendo Ka Shin, Shocker, El Samurai & Gran Hamada (NJPW 06/04/99) NJPW Samurai TV 07/30/99 (Pg 1735) Jushin Liger, Gran Hamada, El Samurai & Minoru Tanaka vs Shinjiro Otani, Masao Orihara, Dr. Wagner Jr. & Tatsuhito Takaiwa (NJPW 06/08/99) NJPW Samurai TV 08/14/99 (Pg 1735) Jushin Liger, Dr. Wagner Jr. & El Samurai vs Shinjiro Otani, Tatsuhito Takaiwa & Kendo Ka SHin (NJPW 06/27/99) NJPW Samurai TV 08/21/99 (Pg 1735) El Samurai vs Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 07/01/99) NJPW Samurai TV 08/27/99 (Pg 1735) Jushin Liger, Dr. Wagner Jr. & El Samurai vs Shinjiro Otani, Koji Kanemoto & Kendo Ka Shin (NJPW 07/20/99) NJPW Samurai TV 09/11/99 (Pg 1750) Yuji Nagata vs Kazuo Yamazaki (NJPW 07/21/99) NJPW Samurai TV 10/02/99 (Pg 1750) Jushin Liger, El Samurai & Kendo Ka Shin vs Shinjiro Otani, Koji Kanemoto & Tatsuhito Takaiwa (NJPW 09/15/99) NJPW Samurai TV 10/16/99 (Pg 1750) Jushin Liger & Kendo Ka Shin vs Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 09/18/99) NJPW Samurai TV 11/05/99 (Pg 1750) Jushin Liger vs AKIRA (NJPW 09/23/99) NJPW Samurai TV 11/13/99 (Pg 1750) Shinjiro Otani & Koji Kanemoto vs Dr. Wagner Jr. & Kendo Ka Shin (NJPW 10/17/99)
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Add this as another Samurai TV match that has potential: NJPW Samurai TV 01/30/99 (Pg 1800) Jushin Liger & Kendo Ka Shin vs Dr. Wagner Jr & Koji Kanemoto (NJPW 12/06/98)
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Very good spotfest. The match feels too similar to the August effort overall, but I do give them credit for upping their game on highspots. I doubt I'll remember anything about this, but it is something that like the August match I think could have gotten over really well in the U.S. at the time. Liger regains the title.
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October: #1 - Lightning Kid vs Jerry Lynn (PWA 10/90) ****3/4 #2 - Nobuhiko Takada vs Yoshiaki Fujiwara (UWF 10/25/90) ****3/4 #3 - El Dandy vs El Satanico (EMLL 10/26/90) ****1/2 #4 - Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (AJPW 10/19/90) ****1/2 #5 - Genichiro Tenryu vs George Takano (SWS 10/11/90) **** #6 - Akira Maeda vs Masakatsu Funaki (UWF 10/25/90) **** #7 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs Nasty Boys (NWA Halloween Havoc 10/27/90) **** #8 - The Rockers vs Hart Foundation (WWF Fort Wayne, IN 10/30/90) ***3/4 #9 - Midnight Express vs Ricky Morton & Tommy Rich (NWA Halloween Havoc 10/27/90) ***1/2 #10 - Jerry Lawler vs Dick Slater (USWA Unified Title Tournament 10/08/90) ***1/4 #11 - Steve Williams vs Paul Orndorff (UWF TV 10/29/90) ***1/4 #12 - Jeff Jarrett & Bob Orton vs Genichiro Tenryu & Kabuki (SWS 10/10/90) *** #13 - Rick & Scott Steiner vs Midnight Express (NWA World Championship Wrestling 10/13/90) *** #14 - Terry Funk vs Brickhouse Brown (USWA Unified Title Tournament 10/08/90) #15 - Jerry Lawler vs Mark Callous (USWA Unified Title Tournament 10/08/90) *** #16 - Ric Flair & Arn Anderson vs Doom (NWA Halloween Havoc 10/27/90) *** #17 - Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs Kenta Kobashi & Johnny Ace (AJPW 10/07/90) #18 - Jeff Jarrett vs Eddie Gilbert (USWA Unified Title Tournament 10/08/90) #19 - Terry Funk vs Dick Murdoch (USWA Unified Title Tournament 10/08/90) #20 - Jerry Lawler vs Austin Idol (USWA Unified Title Tournament 10/08/90) #21 - Jerry Lawler vs Terry Funk (USWA Unified Title Tournament 10/08/90) #22 - Jeff Jarrett vs Danny Davis (USWA TV 10/27/90) #23 - Legion of Doom & Ultimate Warrior vs Demolition (WWF Saturday Night's Main Event 10/13/90) #24 - Ivan Koloff vs Nikita Koloff (UWF TV 10/15/90) Overall thoughts: Definitely the best in-ring month of 1990.
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What I think is most impressive about this series is not just how good the matches are, but also how different they are from each other. So far, Kid and Lynn have proposed three ideas for what wrestling in the 90s could have been. The unifying thread of these matches is that they combine new school offense with old school psychology. I think this is the best of them all. It still has top-notch action, but it's a little slower in pace, and has better character work from Waltman. Allowing the big spots to marinate allows them more time to get over, so that's a wise move. Waltman writes the book on how a scrawny high flyer can still be a really terrific in-ring heel. Lynn does a really impressive dive to the floor, but injures his knee in the process, which leads to Kid masterfully working over his knee. I like how Kid is generally dominant, but they also work in really brief teased comebacks from Lynn to show that he's still in this. Those veteran touches coming from two guys this young and inexperienced is awesome. I love Waltman applying the figure four and holding the ropes in plain sight of the ref, with the referee unable to make him break since this is a no DQ match. This is also the PERFECT finish considering how much of a beating Lynn took. I was hoping they would do it, but didn't expect it. When I watch these matches, it's not so much that I'm impressed with their athleticism (although I am). It's more that they create an atmosphere where I'm seriously wondering what's going to happen next. And the reason for that is that everything seems critical. This is worked in some hole in the wall, just like their other matches, but the match itself is anything but minor league. It could have gotten over in any arena, in any promotion in the world.
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I wonder how many WWF matches would come across better without commentary. This one definitely does. This comes across as more of a physical, hard-hitting match than it normally would post-production, and the aggression takes center stage. I thought this was fantastic. Because it's a babyface match, the match layout isn't really a typical Southern tag. So there's less emphasis on the hot tag. It feels more like an All Japan match from the same time period without quite as much offense, although there is some pretty impressive offense by WWF standards at the time. There's not the same heat you normally get in a match involving these guys, but this is fresh and different. When the top rope falls off, I think it actually adds to the match, because they start doing more unconventional spots. My favorite is Bret crotching himself on the bottom turnbuckle. Speaking of Bret, he really gives an excellent performance in this. He's the ring general that keeps things going when they're hampered, and this match reflects well on him for the most part. The unconventional layout and ring ropes breaking give this the feel of a cross between something Giant Baba would promote and something Paul Boesch would promote. I have no idea how a match this long was going to air on SNME anyway, but I sort of like it better that it happened the way it did. It wouldn't have gotten the recognition it deserved in its time, because all of the focus would have been on the folklore surrounding the rope break and phantom title change, instead of rightfully focusing on how *good* this is. One of my favorite matches on the set, and just a shade below the elite matches of the year. Right? Not so fast. There's still a third fall. Oh, the third fall. There a couple of clumsy spots which really knock this off the mountain on which I had it, both involving Bret. He draws a blank during a criss cross sequence with Jannetty, and it looks horrible. He also messes up the finish in a bad way. That surprises me, because it's out of character with how he worked the match before that, and also because I can't recall ever seeing Bret look lost in the ring any other time. Screw the ropes, the editing needed to take place in third fall if they wanted to air this. I think with those two spots taken out, this could have gotten over as an all-time classic. It would have lost some of the intensity that shines through here, but it would hold up as a really good match. But those botched moments really hurt what they had built and that's the reality.
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Not exactly sure, but I know they didn't know it by this point. I think the WON around this time said Flair was approached about it in mid-November. Sting knew he was done, and just asked at the very least if he could win the Scorpion feud before dropping the title, which is why there was no title change at Starrcade.
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Albano talking to Orton like he's a rookie is funny. "I know all about your father, but tell me about you." This segment is good, clean fun, with Albano dropping one silly witticism after another. Orton takes a shot at Captain Lou's body, which makes Lou take his shirt off and strut his stuff. Orton almost loses it. This is a must-see!
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Doc comes out to the Bash '88 music, which I'm sure will excite soup and Jerry Von Kramer. Orndorff is the face and Doc the heel, which wasn't the dynamic I expected the first time I saw this footage. I should count up all the matches that are on here featuring two people employed by WCW within the previous 12 months, because something that keeps standing out is how horrible the promotion was at keeping people around. I'd like to see these two get about 20 minutes, because they work well together, and this was a good match. I think it could have been really great with more time.
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Last few minutes. Inexcusably heatless for a PPV main event. You could tell that they wanted Sting's running lariat on the ramp to be one for the highlight reel. It did get a pop, but I'm surprised at how quiet the crowd is when they've been really into the rest of the show. But that's not the reason this here. This is -- the most (in)famous finish of the early PPV era. Sting and Sid brawl out of sight then head back to the ring. Sting gets pinned and Sid wins the title, or so we think. Sting crosses paths with the Fake Sting, which the crack WCW production crew completely misses and is a key moment, then comes back to the ring and pins Sid after a Stinger Splash and inside cradle while balloons and pyro are still going off for the presumed title change. This was a clever idea for a finish, but they couldn't execute it at all, the production was terrible and it's made meaningless by never really being mentioned again.
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Last few minutes. The Starrcade match is generally seen as the best of their two matches, but Luger works hard in what's shown here, so maybe this is worth checking out in full sometime too. Hansen tosses Spivey a cowbell after Hansen slugs the ref (which doesn't get him DQd for some reason), Hansen catches Luger with a lariat and then wins the US title. Spivey's interference wasn't really a factor, so I'm not even sure why they did it, unless it was just to give Luger an out when dropping the title.
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Good stuff, John.