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I had that one above: John

I think we reached the point that when it was a *consistent* change was during the Monday Night Wars, and possibly closer to the start of SmackDown. They worked the Bret = Fighting Champ gimmick, but it's worth remembering that Bret didn't stay champ all that long. Bret --> Yoko --> Hogan --> Yoko, then the chase of him by Bret and Lex. I don't know how much Bret was on TV in his run between Mania 94 and dropping the title to Backlund. Probably not close to the level we saw later. I think we talked about an increase in with Shawn, but it wasn't instant and instead was probably a reflection of the ratings war being tighter than Vince ever expected, and a shift to TV becoming more obsessively important to both sides of the War. John

Except that you're arguing from two different ends: 1. He didn't do jobs. 2. He ran over the roster in his final run The first isn't correct. The second isn't correct. So you morph the argument around into something else. This latest one has Taker and Angle the biggest stars on SmackDown, not the guy who was allegedly running through the roster. John

It's a little hard to "run over the roster" when he jobbed to Angle on back-to-back PPV matches, "won" that feud on TV in the Iron Man, beat Taker on the next PPV only to "lose" the feud on TV. From 07/27/03 to 10/21/03 he wasn't running over the roster: he was booked in what Goc correctly calls even-steven booking with Angle and Taker, the other two biggest stars on SmackDown. He didn't remotely run over those two. So then we're left with 10/28/03 - 03/14/04 which is the period where Brock must have been running over the roster. October 28, 2003 Smackdown! The Acolytes defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show via disqualification at 3:10 when Lesnar hit Farooq with a chair; after the match, Farooq's ankle was trapped in a steel chair and Show hit a leg drop off the middle turnbuckle - crushing it in the chair; moments thereafter, Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit made the save - applying their respective submission holds - before Nathan Jones and Matt Morgan laid Angle and Benoit out Lost. November 4, 2003 Smackdown! Kurt Angle & Chris Benoit defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, Albert, Matt Morgan, & Nathan Jones via disqualification in a handicap match at 14:24 when the Big Show interfered as Angle had the ankle lock applied on Lesnar and Benoit had the Crippler Crossface applied on Albert; Lesnar himself did guest commentary for the early moments of the contest; after the match, Angle, Benoit, Bradshaw, and John Cena were all brutalized by Team Lesnar Lost. November 11, 2003 Smackdown! Chris Benoit & John Cena defeated WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show Lost. November 16, 2003 Survivor Series 03 Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, John Cena, Hardcore Holly, & Bradshaw defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, WWE US Champion the Big Show, Matt Morgan, Nathan Jones, & Albert in an elimination match at 13:17; Holly was disqualified for shoving the referee on the floor as a brawl ensued before the bell rang; Bradshaw pinned Albert with the Clothesline from Hell at the 28-second mark; Show pinned Bradshaw with the chokeslam at the 50-second mark after Jones hit Bradshaw from behind as he attempted the Clothesline from Hell; Angle pinned Morgan with the Olympic Slam at 9:06; Jones submitted to Angle's ankle lock at 9:31; Lesnar pinned Angle with the F5 at 9:44; Lesnar submitted to Benoit's Crippler Crossface at 11:51; Cena pinned Show with the FU after hitting him with a steel chain Lost. So of the 10/28/03 - 03/14/04 period, we can chop off 10/28/03 - 11/16/03 right off the bat. Let's look at the rest. December 2, 2003 Smackdown! Chris Benoit defeated John Cena via submission with the Crippler Crossface at 16:20 after Cena knocked the Big Show, who came ringside moments earlier, off the ring apron; Cena originally won the match with the FU at 5:31 but a second referee disputed the call since Benoit's foot was on the bottom rope during the cover - thus the bout continued; due to prematch stipulations, Benoit earned a world title shot against Brock Lesnar later in the evening WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Chris Benoit via TKO at 14:34 when the challenger passed out while caught in the Brock Lock, after the champion hit Benoit's knee with a steel chair; after the bout, Lesnar put Benoit in the Crippler Crossface and slapped his hand to the mat - as though Benoit had submitted - since the challenger refused to tap out during the match itself "Won" his feud with Benoit after Benoit had fo go 16+ earlier on the card with Cena... and only after Show distracted Cena. December 9, 2003 Smackdown WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Rey Mysterio Jr. via submission with a modified half crab, with Mysterio's head wrapped around the champion's head, in a non-title match at 14:41; after the bout, Hardcore Holly - wearing street clothes - came out of the crowd and clotheslined Lesnar to the floor; had Mysterio won the match, he would have earned a title shot for the following week He had a throw away match with Rey. It's probably worthwhile to look up how Rey was pushed at this time. Rey wasn't World Champion Rey yet, and going 14+ with the Monster Brock was pretty damn respectable. December 16, 2003 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Shannon Moore (mystery opponent) at 1:39 via submission with the Brock Lock; Moore was chosen as the challenger after being selected at random from the Smackdown! roster; after the bout, it was revealed that Moore was rigged to win and thus would be in less than 100% shape for the tag team main event Brock ran through Shannon Moore!!! Woo-Hoo~! Monster push~! January 20, 2004 Smackdown! Chris Benoit & John Cena defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, Matt Morgan, & Rhyno in a handicap match when Cena pinned Rhyno with the FU at around the 19-minute mark; WWE US Champion the Big Show was to have been a part of Lesnar's team but was locked in his dressing room by a forklift backstage; at around the 10-minute mark, Lesnar attempted to walk out on the match but was briefly attacked by Hardcore Holly until officials stepped in, allowing Lesnar to retreat backstage; after the, match, Benoit saved Cena from an attack by Matt Morgan before both he and Cena went to the floor and tipped over Paul Heyman's high chair, knocking Heyman into the ring; moments later, the Big Show came to the ring and hit chokeslams on both Benoit and Cena Brock's team lost this handicap match, and it doesn't look like Brock was running over anyone here. January 25, 2004 Royal Rumble 04 WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned Hardcore Holly with the F5 at 6:30; prior to the bout officially beginning, the two battled around ringside Brock squashes noted massive draw Hardcore Holly. Monster push~! January 27, 2004 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Orlando Jordan in a non-title match via submission with the Brock Lock at 4:19 Brock is really running through the roster now. Shannon Moore... Hardcore Holly... Orlando Jones. February 10, 2004 Smackdown! Eddie Guerrero & John Cena (sub. for Kurt Angle) defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show at 17:26 when Guerrero pinned Lesnar with a low blow, using Cena's steel chain, and a cradle as Lesnar and the referee were distracted by Kurt Angle - who came ringside and hit both Cena and Show with a steel chair - blaming them for knocking him out backstage earlier in the broadcast Hmmm... did Eddy just pin Brock there? Was that counted among the "five times" Brock lost in his final push? February 15, 2004 No Way Out 04 Eddie Guerrero pinned WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar to win the title at 30:05 with the Frog Splash after reversing an attempt at the F5 into a tornado DDT onto the title belt; late in the bout, Lesnar attempted to use the title belt as a weapon while the referee was knocked out but Bill Goldberg, who was arrested earlier in the evening, came out and hit the spear on the champion; after the match, Guerrero celebrated in the crowd and was congratulated by his mother and brother Mondo who sat ringside And again? February 24, 2004 Smackdown! Brock Lesnar pinned Billy Gunn with the F5 at 8:19 after Gunn hit the corner Yep, Brock is really running through the roster now. March 2, 2004 Smackdown Brock Lesnar pinned Hardcore Holly with the F5 at 2:48; prior to the bout, Lesnar drove to the ring on Steve Austin's stolen ATV and cut an in-ring promo on Austin and Bill Goldberg; after the bout, Lesnar celebrated the win by drinking two beers and having Austin's theme music play as he drove backstage on the ATV Poor Hardcore Holly has to job twice to Brock. There goes the Hall of Fame career. - 3/9/04: Immediately after the Smackdown! taping, Brock Lesnar abruptly quit the WWE but agreed to work his scheduled match at WrestleMania. Well, can you blame him? March 14, 2004 WrestleMania XX Bill Goldberg pinned Brock Lesnar at 13:48 with the spear and Jackhammer; after the bout, guest referee Steve Austin hit the Stunner on Lesnar before doing the same to Goldberg (Lesnar and Goldberg's last match in the WWE) And another job. So the 10/28/03 - 03/14/04 becomes 10/28/03 - 11/16/03: tag losses to set up TV win over Benoit, including Cripple Crossface job to Benoit at Survivor 12/02/03 - 01/27/04: wins over Benoit, Rey, Shannon Moore, Hardcore Holly (PPV), and Orlando Jones [ignoring the tag loss of his team on 01/20/04] 02/10/04 - 03/14/04: jobbing to Eddy (tag & singles) and Goldberg [setting aside the throwaway wins over Gunn and Holly on his last two tv matches leading into Mania] So Brock "ran through the roster" for less than two months and the only pushed heavyweight he beat in that period was Benoit. Then he lost to Eddy (to put over a new anchor Champ) and Goldberg. He didn't run over the roster for much time at all, and really didn't run over it. Over Angle? No. Over Taker? No Over Eddy? No Over Goldberg? No. Over Benoit? Benoit beat him to set up the singles match, and Brock won the singles match. The feud probably helped Benoit more than Brock considering who won the Royal Rumble and the main event of Wrestlemania. So even there, Brock didn't run over Benoit. So who at the top of the roster in his final run did Brock run over? John

He was a heel who lost on was pinned or tapped on 5 of his last 7 PPV matches covering 07/27/03 to 03/14/2004. He also jobbed to Taker on TV in a Brock+Show+Heyman vs Taker match to allow Taker to Win the Brock-Taker II Feud. Seriously...

WrestleMania X March 20, 1994 in New York City, NY Madison Square Garden drawing 18,065 ($960,000) Shown live on PPV (1.68) The Heavenly Bodies (Del Ray & Pritchard) beat The Bushwhackers when Del Rey pinned Miller. Owen Hart pinned Bret Hart (20:21). Bam Bam Bigelow & Luna Vachon beat Doink (Fall) & Dink (6:09) when Bigelow pinned Doink. Randy Savage beat Crush (9:49) in a "falls count anywhere" match when Crush couldn't return to the ring in 60 seconds. WWF Women's Champ Alundra Blayze pinned Lelani Kai (3:20). Men on a Mission beat WWF Tag Champs The Quebecers (7:41) via countout. WWF World Champ Yokozuna beat Lex Luger (14:40) via DQ. Mr. Perfect was the special referee. Earthquake pinned Adam Bomb (0:32). WWF I-C Champ Razor Ramon beat Shawn Michaels (18:47) in a "ladder" match. Bret Hart pinned Yokozuna (10:38) to win the WWF World Title. Roddy Piper was the special referee. Did not highlight Yoko twice Seven people who "wrestled" along with Perfect as Special Ref. A few others like Lex and Hall who have been in some rough shape... even Piper's health has been poor at times. When you lay it out like the above, it is a bit alarming. It is nearly 20 years ago, so on a level it's not like 7/8 dropping dead from the 2010 card. But 1994... it's not like those guys were 45 year old Ric Flair working on the card and dying in their late 50s. Not to defend Dave... but yeah... it's a little hard to look at all that red above. :/ John

That would be similar to Matt with the WWF: he knows the "films" a/k/a the matches and storylines. John

That's useless for attracting non-wrestling-fans, though. They'll just say "you know they paid Brock to lose that match, it's all fake crap" and such. Yeah. MMA fans wouldn't give a shit. And even WWE fans know that the WWE is fake, and Brock left the real stuff to comeback to the fake stuff. John

I suspect that a lot of us would find it scary how much you know about Yasujiro Ozu. John

Wow five losses. Brock was a later day Cruel Connection #4. Seriously? You want me to go through his whole run? He was pinned or submitted on 5 out of his last 7 PPV appearances... which was his "last run" in the WWF. Are people this forgetful of history, or too lazy to look stuff up? :/

Here's Brock's "last run", starting with Kurt winning the title and going through Mania. Results and descriptions from Graham's site. TV and PPV matches only. PPV are bolded. July 27, 2003 Vengeance 03 Kurt Angle defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar and the Big Show at 17:38 to win the title after hitting the Olympic Slam on both opponents and scoring the pin on Lesnar July 29, 2003 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Kurt Angle & Brock Lesnar defeated the Big Show & Albert (mystery opponents picked by Vince McMahon) when Angle made the blind tag in and pinned Show after he suffered Lesnar's F5; after the bout, Lesnar took exception to Angle getting the win and hit the F5 on the champion before Vince McMahon came out and made two stipulations to his scheduled match with Lesnar the following week - not only would it now be a steel cage match but the special referee would be Kurt Angle August 5, 2003 Smackdown! Brock Lesnar fought Vince McMahon to a no contest in a steel cage match when Lesnar seemingly passed out in the ring, after being attacked backstage earlier in the evening; as McMahon argued with guest referee Kurt Angle, Lesnar rose to his feet and hit the F5 on Angle before it became clear that Lesnar's injury and bout with McMahon was just a setup for Angle August 12, 2003 Smackdown! Spanky defeated Brock Lesnar via disqualification after Lesnar shoved the referee out of the ring and hit his opponent over the head with a chair before hitting an F5 into the steel ringpost on the floor; after the match, Spanky had to be taken from ringside on a stretcher, while Brock smeared the blood of his opponent onto his chest August 19, 2003 Smackdown! Zach Gowen defeated Brock Lesnar via disqualification after Lesnar hit Gowen over the head with a chair on the outside; prior to the bout, Lesnar brutally attacked Gowen on the floor - in front of his mother who sat ringside; after the bout, Lesnar continued to attack Gowen and hit an F5 into the steel ringpost on two occassions; Gowen had to be taken from ringside on a stretcher but not before Lesnar pushed it over, took the stretcher as a trophy, and smeered Gowen's blood onto his chest August 24, 2003 - Summer Slam 03 WWE World Champion Kurt Angle defeated Brock Lesnar via submission with the ankle lock at 21:18 after avoiding an attempt at the F5; late in the bout, Vince McMahon came ringside and hit the champion in the back with a steel chair while the referee was knocked out; after the match, Angle avoided an attack from McMahon before dropping him onto a steel chair set up inside the ring August 26, 2003 Smackdown! The Undertaker defeated Brock Lesnar and the Big Show in a No DQ match at around the 15-minute mark by pinning Lesnar with a powerbomb out of the corner after Show tumbled off the top rope to the floor; due to pre-match stipulations, the Undertaker earned a world title shot against WWE World Champion Kurt Angle for the following week; Kurt Angle did guest commentary for the match; the match began during the commercial break September 9, 2003 Smackdown! Stephanie McMahon fought Brock Lesnar to a no contest when Kurt Angle joined in attacking Lesnar after Stephanie hit a low blow on both Lesnar and Vince McMahon September 16, 2003 Smackdown! Brock Lesnar defeated WWE World Champion Kurt Angle in a 60-minute Ironman match to win the title, 5-4; during the final seconds of the bout, Angle had the modified ankle lock applied on the challenger but Lesnar refused to submit and waited out the clock; voted Pro Wrestling Illustrated's Match of the Year; fall #1: Lesnar was disqualified at about 8:32 after hitting the champion with a steel chair; 1-0; fall #2: Lesnar pinned Angle with the F5 at 10:21; 1-1; fall #3: Lesnar forced Angle to submit with the ankle lock at 12:09; 1-2; fall #4: Angle was counted-out after recieving the F5 on the floor at 19:56; 1-3; fall #5: Angle pinned Lesnar with the Olympic Slam at 25:55; 2-3; fall #6: Lesnar pinned Angle after hitting him with the title belt at 30:27; 2-4; fall #7: Lesnar pinned Angle with a superplex; 2-5; fall #8: Angle pinned Lesnar with a belly to belly superplex at 50:29; 3-5; fall #9: Angle forced Lesnar to submit with the ankle lock at 56:11; 4-5 September 30, 2003 Smackdown! WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & John Cena defeated the Undertaker & Kurt Angle when Cena pinned Angle after hitting him with his chain October 7, 2003 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned Paul London with a powerbomb and the F5 at 1:34; after the match, Spanky came out for the save as Lesnar attempted to hit the F5 on London into the steel ringpost; Lesnar quickly tossed Spanky into the ringpost before the Undertaker came out and informed Lesnar that their title contest at No Mercy would be a Biker Chain Match October 19, 2003 - No Mercy 03 (Smackdown!) WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned the Undertaker in a Biker Chain Match at 24:16 by hitting the challenger with the chain after Vince McMahon came out from under the ring and crotched Taker on the top rope immediately after Taker took possession of the chain; Nunzio, Johnny Stamboli, and Chuck Palumbo interfered at the 21-minute mark but were quickly thrown out of the ring by Taker October 21, 2003 Smackdown! The Undertaker defeated WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show in a handicap match at 14:17 by pinning Lesnar after hitting both he and Show with a steel chain wrapped around his fist; Taker had originally pinned Show with a chokeslam off the top at 5:18 but Paul Heyman came out and made the match into a Best 2 out of 3 falls contest; Taker then won via count-out at 11:54 after throwing Lesnar into the front row but Heyman turned the bout into a No Count-Out match; Show & Lesnar were disqualified at 12:39 when Show hit Taker in the back with a chair but Heyman made the match into a No DQ contest; due to prematch stipulations, Taker earned the right to face anyone he wants, anywhere, anytime, and with any stipulations; after the match, Taker was further attacked by his opponents - eventually suffering an F5 into the ringpost; moments thereafter, Vince McMahon confronted the beaten and bruised Taker about who he wanted to fight; Taker then said he didn't want a title match with Lesnar but rather a Buried Alive match at Survivor Series with Vince himself October 28, 2003 Smackdown! The Acolytes defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show via disqualification at 3:10 when Lesnar hit Farooq with a chair; after the match, Farooq's ankle was trapped in a steel chair and Show hit a leg drop off the middle turnbuckle - crushing it in the chair; moments thereafter, Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit made the save - applying their respective submission holds - before Nathan Jones and Matt Morgan laid Angle and Benoit out November 4, 2003 Smackdown! Kurt Angle & Chris Benoit defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, Albert, Matt Morgan, & Nathan Jones via disqualification in a handicap match at 14:24 when the Big Show interfered as Angle had the ankle lock applied on Lesnar and Benoit had the Crippler Crossface applied on Albert; Lesnar himself did guest commentary for the early moments of the contest; after the match, Angle, Benoit, Bradshaw, and John Cena were all brutalized by Team Lesnar November 11, 2003 Smackdown! Chris Benoit & John Cena defeated WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show November 16, 2003 Survivor Series 03 Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, John Cena, Hardcore Holly, & Bradshaw defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, WWE US Champion the Big Show, Matt Morgan, Nathan Jones, & Albert in an elimination match at 13:17; Holly was disqualified for shoving the referee on the floor as a brawl ensued before the bell rang; Bradshaw pinned Albert with the Clothesline from Hell at the 28-second mark; Show pinned Bradshaw with the chokeslam at the 50-second mark after Jones hit Bradshaw from behind as he attempted the Clothesline from Hell; Angle pinned Morgan with the Olympic Slam at 9:06; Jones submitted to Angle's ankle lock at 9:31; Lesnar pinned Angle with the F5 at 9:44; Lesnar submitted to Benoit's Crippler Crossface at 11:51; Cena pinned Show with the FU after hitting him with a steel chain December 2, 2003 Smackdown! Chris Benoit defeated John Cena via submission with the Crippler Crossface at 16:20 after Cena knocked the Big Show, who came ringside moments earlier, off the ring apron; Cena originally won the match with the FU at 5:31 but a second referee disputed the call since Benoit's foot was on the bottom rope during the cover - thus the bout continued; due to prematch stipulations, Benoit earned a world title shot against Brock Lesnar later in the evening WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Chris Benoit via TKO at 14:34 when the challenger passed out while caught in the Brock Lock, after the champion hit Benoit's knee with a steel chair; after the bout, Lesnar put Benoit in the Crippler Crossface and slapped his hand to the mat - as though Benoit had submitted - since the challenger refused to tap out during the match itself December 9, 2003 Smackdown WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Rey Mysterio Jr. via submission with a modified half crab, with Mysterio's head wrapped around the champion's head, in a non-title match at 14:41; after the bout, Hardcore Holly - wearing street clothes - came out of the crowd and clotheslined Lesnar to the floor; had Mysterio won the match, he would have earned a title shot for the following week December 16, 2003 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Shannon Moore (mystery opponent) at 1:39 via submission with the Brock Lock; Moore was chosen as the challenger after being selected at random from the Smackdown! roster; after the bout, it was revealed that Moore was rigged to win and thus would be in less than 100% shape for the tag team main event January 20, 2004 Smackdown! Chris Benoit & John Cena defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, Matt Morgan, & Rhyno in a handicap match when Cena pinned Rhyno with the FU at around the 19-minute mark; WWE US Champion the Big Show was to have been a part of Lesnar's team but was locked in his dressing room by a forklift backstage; at around the 10-minute mark, Lesnar attempted to walk out on the match but was briefly attacked by Hardcore Holly until officials stepped in, allowing Lesnar to retreat backstage; after the, match, Benoit saved Cena from an attack by Matt Morgan before both he and Cena went to the floor and tipped over Paul Heyman's high chair, knocking Heyman into the ring; moments later, the Big Show came to the ring and hit chokeslams on both Benoit and Cena January 25, 2004 Royal Rumble 04 WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned Hardcore Holly with the F5 at 6:30; prior to the bout officially beginning, the two battled around ringside January 27, 2004 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Orlando Jordan in a non-title match via submission with the Brock Lock at 4:19 February 10, 2004 Smackdown! Eddie Guerrero & John Cena (sub. for Kurt Angle) defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show at 17:26 when Guerrero pinned Lesnar with a low blow, using Cena's steel chain, and a cradle as Lesnar and the referee were distracted by Kurt Angle - who came ringside and hit both Cena and Show with a steel chair - blaming them for knocking him out backstage earlier in the broadcast February 15, 2004 No Way Out 04 Eddie Guerrero pinned WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar to win the title at 30:05 with the Frog Splash after reversing an attempt at the F5 into a tornado DDT onto the title belt; late in the bout, Lesnar attempted to use the title belt as a weapon while the referee was knocked out but Bill Goldberg, who was arrested earlier in the evening, came out and hit the spear on the champion; after the match, Guerrero celebrated in the crowd and was congratulated by his mother and brother Mondo who sat ringside February 24, 2004 Smackdown! Brock Lesnar pinned Billy Gunn with the F5 at 8:19 after Gunn hit the corner March 2, 2004 Smackdown Brock Lesnar pinned Hardcore Holly with the F5 at 2:48; prior to the bout, Lesnar drove to the ring on Steve Austin's stolen ATV and cut an in-ring promo on Austin and Bill Goldberg; after the bout, Lesnar celebrated the win by drinking two beers and having Austin's theme music play as he drove backstage on the ATV - 3/9/04: Immediately after the Smackdown! taping, Brock Lesnar abruptly quit the WWE but agreed to work his scheduled match at WrestleMania. March 14, 2004 WrestleMania XX Bill Goldberg pinned Brock Lesnar at 13:48 with the spear and Jackhammer; after the bout, guest referee Steve Austin hit the Stunner on Lesnar before doing the same to Goldberg (Lesnar and Goldberg's last match in the WWE) * * * * * * * Just to make it easier, here are the PPV: July 27, 2003 Vengeance 03 Kurt Angle defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar and the Big Show at 17:38 to win the title after hitting the Olympic Slam on both opponents and scoring the pin on Lesnar 0-1 August 24, 2003 - Summer Slam 03 WWE World Champion Kurt Angle defeated Brock Lesnar via submission with the ankle lock at 21:18 after avoiding an attempt at the F5 0-2 October 19, 2003 - No Mercy 03 (Smackdown!) WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned the Undertaker in a Biker Chain Match at 24:16 by hitting the challenger with the chain after Vince McMahon came out from under the ring and crotched Taker on the top rope immediately after Taker took possession of the chain 1-2 November 16, 2003 Survivor Series 03 Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, John Cena, Hardcore Holly, & Bradshaw defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, WWE US Champion the Big Show, Matt Morgan, Nathan Jones, & Albert in an elimination match at 13:17; Holly was disqualified for shoving the referee on the floor as a brawl ensued before the bell rang; Bradshaw pinned Albert with the Clothesline from Hell at the 28-second mark; Show pinned Bradshaw with the chokeslam at the 50-second mark after Jones hit Bradshaw from behind as he attempted the Clothesline from Hell; Angle pinned Morgan with the Olympic Slam at 9:06; Jones submitted to Angle's ankle lock at 9:31; Lesnar pinned Angle with the F5 at 9:44; Lesnar submitted to Benoit's Crippler Crossface at 11:51; Cena pinned Show with the FU after hitting him with a steel chain 1-3 (taps to Benoit) January 25, 2004 Royal Rumble 04 WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned Hardcore Holly with the F5 at 6:30 2-3 (over a FUCKING HOLLY!) February 15, 2004 No Way Out 04 Eddie Guerrero pinned WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar to win the title at 30:05 with the Frog Splash after reversing an attempt at the F5 into a tornado DDT onto the title belt 2-4 March 14, 2004 WrestleMania XX Bill Goldberg pinned Brock Lesnar at 13:48 with the spear and Jackhammer 2-5 Um... yeah. * * * * * The only pin of note by Brock on a PPV in that stretch was over Taker. How did their Feud go? August 26, 2003 Smackdown! The Undertaker defeated Brock Lesnar and the Big Show in a No DQ match at around the 15-minute mark by pinning Lesnar with a powerbomb out of the corner after Show tumbled off the top rope to the floor; due to pre-match stipulations, the Undertaker earned a world title shot against WWE World Champion Kurt Angle for the following week; Kurt Angle did guest commentary for the match; the match began during the commercial break 0-1 with Brock taking the pin. September 30, 2003 Smackdown! WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & John Cena defeated the Undertaker & Kurt Angle when Cena pinned Angle after hitting him with his chain Still 0-1 as Cena gets to pin Angle. October 19, 2003 - No Mercy 03 (Smackdown!) WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned the Undertaker in a Biker Chain Match at 24:16 by hitting the challenger with the chain after Vince McMahon came out from under the ring and crotched Taker on the top rope immediately after Taker took possession of the chain; Nunzio, Johnny Stamboli, and Chuck Palumbo interfered at the 21-minute mark but were quickly thrown out of the ring by Taker 1-1 as Taker gets the big PPV win! Wait... what's this? October 21, 2003 Smackdown! The Undertaker defeated WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show in a handicap match at 14:17 by pinning Lesnar after hitting both he and Show with a steel chain wrapped around his fist; Taker had originally pinned Show with a chokeslam off the top at 5:18 but Paul Heyman came out and made the match into a Best 2 out of 3 falls contest; Taker then won via count-out at 11:54 after throwing Lesnar into the front row but Heyman turned the bout into a No Count-Out match; Show & Lesnar were disqualified at 12:39 when Show hit Taker in the back with a chair but Heyman made the match into a No DQ contest; due to prematch stipulations, Taker earned the right to face anyone he wants, anywhere, anytime, and with any stipulations; after the match, Taker was further attacked by his opponents - eventually suffering an F5 into the ringpost; moments thereafter, Vince McMahon confronted the beaten and bruised Taker about who he wanted to fight; Taker then said he didn't want a title match with Lesnar but rather a Buried Alive match at Survivor Series with Vince himself Taker beats Brock *and* Show in a handicap match not once... not twice... not three times... but FOUR FUCKING TIMES!!! 1. Taker pinned Show with a chokeslam off the top at 5:18 2. Taker via COR after throwing Lesnar into the front row at 11:54 3. Show & Lesnar via DQ when Show hit Taker in the back with a chair at 12:39 4. Taker pinned Lesnar after hitting both he and Show with a steel chain wrapped around his fist at 14:17 HOLY SHIT!!! Brock lost that feud 1-2, and basically... kind of... looked like... um... a total bitch getting clocked by Taker with Show at his side and "the fix was in" with Paul E making up the rules as they went along. Wait... it gets better. Brock is such a bitch to Taker and the World Title is such a little piece of hardware that Taker would rather have a match on the next PPV with... Wait for it... Vince McMahon. * * * * * Please. Lance is full of fucking shit. Talking out of his ass. A dumb fuck. Has either forgotten history or wants to rewrite it. Some of us lived through the painful dogshit of a promotion that the WWF turned into starting on 9/2/02 when Trip decided to give himself a World Title and gut the legs off of Brock's push right after Hogan and Rock put him over so strongly in the prior 29 days. 2003 through Mania 2004 was at a time when we still gave a shit and were only half numb by the incredible stupidity of the promotion. Lance may not remember. But we remember that Brock wasn't pushed as the unbeatable monster that folks seem to recall a decade removed from it with fuzzy brains. John

Benoit submitted him at Survivor Series 2003. That would be in his "last run" if we're trying to narrow this down to make Lance's bullshit sound plausible. Do we need to document his entire TV & PPV history? Back at the time, a lot of folks thought that the WWE didn't make Brock look strong enough after he beat Rock. John

Eddy before he left. Show in 2002. Angle in 2003. I suspect we'll find others. John

I haven't watched this one in more than a decade, so it's a little fuzzy in the brain. I thought the 11/30/93 match blew this one away, perhaps lacking the "setting" of Budokan, but having its own super hot crowd eating everything up. That match had some of the stuff Loss liked here, including the rolling craddle. Misawa never struck me as being on cruise control in the 11/30/93 match, and actually was quite good. Obviously Hansen was really fired up in that one, with a mindset of thinking he had to carry his team. Baba was as good as he'd looked in ages. Kobashi was 1993 Kobashi, so he was going to be out of his mind anyway. Relative to them Misawa may not have looked off the charts in the 1993 match, but he was smart and good and solid in doing everything he needed to do. Whenever I get around to watching this one again I'll keep an eye on Misawa's performance. I made the comment in the 1994 Carny stuff that Misawa looked off his game, disinterested and just not good in a lot of matches. It also was the series where they worked the injury angle to give him some time off. It's never been well explained *why* he got the time off, but having rewatched his limited matches in Carny, I started to wonder if he was either banged up or worn down and the "injury" was to give him time off to heel up rather than be ground down by the intensive run of singles matches. It's possible that he wasn't in good shape for this match. John

On one level... Rock turns 40 on Wed. Looks like he's having a little mid-live crisis. On another level... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_%26_Gain That would be Marky Mark with Rock, and the film is in production. It's likely that he's getting in that shape specifically for the role. We are all probably "suspect" of his Methods in preparing for the role, but it goes a long way towards explaining the "why". John

That said, I suspect Brock is a bigger draw than anyone else on the roster they could have put into a Late April Third Tier PPV. I think we all agree that this will probably pop the best post-Mania PPV buy number in a good long while. John

Well, it would be ironic for MMA Fans to follow Brock back to the WWE since we've had years of the meme that it was Wrestling Fans who followed Brock to MMA and spiked all those big UFC buys. Those weren't MMA Fans... they were Brock/Wrestling Fans... "You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!" -Vizzini Meltzer John

I'm wondering if in a few months this match will be looked at as a "We'll always have Paris" moment. John

We probably could use a comp of how Dave, Wade and MKJ are reporting this and then look back to see who ended up right. John

Lordy... there are 26 pages of this thread? I was hoping there were only 5 to make it easier to refresh my memory on what we all thought of Trip taking over. John

Watched this with Hoback today. He went nuts for it: five starring it and going off on how great it was. What's kind of interesting is if this had happened at say the 9/96 Budokan as the semi to Kobashi-Hansen and what people would have thought of it. My guess is that it would have been way up the 1996 MOTYC list. Big match, big setting, well paced, big spots, great run to the finish. It doesn't overstay it's welcome as being too long, and leaves the "epic" vibe to the Kobashi-Hansen. Yeah, probably would have finished well up. Then what's more interesting is that they then would have topped it with the Tag League Final. Really is kind of batshit crazy that you could have a match this good, that they not just top it, but blow it completely out of the water to the point that this is almost a throw away. No, it's not really a throw away since it helps play into the Tag Final to a degree. But the Tag League Final is really on another level. Pretty amazing. John

Maybe a bad analogy. Hans never drew another dime after jobbing to McClane. John

You forgot Hash-Ogawa. John

Brock lost his *second* much hyped MMA match. He actually won his first MMA match. Unless we're rewriting history. John

Odd finish. Sounds like a PPV worth tracking down... but that's a bizzaro world finish. It's kind of sad when we have to twist ourselves into a pretzel trying to figure out / explain Vince-Think. John