Dylan Waco

Bob Orton Jr. is beloved by so many people it's insane. I've probably heard ten guys speak with great reverence about him. Buddy Rose said he was the best worker he ever saw.

I actually know a lot of people in day-to-day life who are wrestling fans and follow the internet scene, though to do the degree anyone here does. I never hear anyone talk about Scott Keith. Ever. If anything I suspect people in our corner of the world inflate his "influence."

It's one of my favorite matches that no one talks about. Really one of my favorite matches of all time, though by no means does that mean I think it's one of the best of all time.

I will listen to this in a week when I have the time to take it in at once, but I'm interested to see if you guys love the Midnights fairwell as much as me

I watched some late 70's WWWF not too terribly long ago and came away really liking the expressive nature of Pat's selling and bumping. He is one of a relatively small number of guys I can think of who used every inch of his body when receiving impact, almost doing this bizarre body tremble, that somehow didn't look phony. Offhand the only guys I can think of who did anything similar were Larry Zbyszko and Buddy Landell, though I'm sure I am forgetting some. I also agree with the point that generally speaking Backlund works better long.

The question is really whether or not Ryback has enough offense to make the match work. Dustin definitely can hold up his end on offense or defense, but the heat section will determine whether or not the match is good.

I think only a delusional fanboy would pretend the gold medal had nothing to do with his induction. I do not think it was the only factor, possibly not even the primary one, though I agree with tom's general point that a gold medalists was always going to draw some support and votes from those looking to legitimize their own careers.

Seems like an easy way to test this hypothesis would be to look at the vote totals. Did Angle do significantly better among current and former wrestlers than among reporters and historians? Also, for the record, Angle got in with exactly the bare minimum of necessary votes in 2004. I don't know where this notion that he got elected in a cakewalk came from. Old wrestlers always talk up Angle. Always. It always bugs me when Bret does it, since it's pretty hypocritical relative to his comments about Flair. I'm looking for data, not anecdotes. In the case of something like that this data on it's own tells you very little. You would need to know why people voted for certain people, and wrestlers are the absolute least likely group among voters to give reasons publicly for their votes. What we do have are cases of guys in shoots and interviews talking about how none of the guys from the modern era could cut it, or work their style, et. other than Angle. Whatever you think of Angle as a worker or a star, it's hard to see how Angle is a modern day representative of wrestling as worked by Ole Anderson or Jack Brisco. We also have historians who are on record talking about how guys that "tested themselves" in legit competition are more likely to get their votes. So while I have no clue, what the actual data was, but I think it's fair to say that tom's point was likely a factor in Angle's early induction. It was not the only one, as I think there are a couple other obvious ones. 1. He was in the midst of his "prime," and was regularly touted as a super worker during the period by Dave and others. Angle benefited for the same reasons that Jericho did (two consecutive Wrestler of the Year Awards) and Tanahashi did (basically the same thing, plus was touted regularly by Dave as one of the great workers in the history of wrestling). Compare those guys to people like Mistico or Perro Aguayo Jr. or Batista or even Edge who's peaks came before eligibility. and 2. The collapse of Japanese wrestling and U.S. competition. In the past I think it's highly unlikely that Angle would have become the "flavor of the week" to nearly the degree he was, because the worldwide standard was considered higher, and even in the States there was one or more promotions that were deemed relevant with talent to compare him directly to. Angle was seen by some as an era defining worker and star, because he was the guy that hit his full stride when everything else was falling off of a cliff.

Just saw you think Dandy is a mediocre brawler. At that point there is no point even debating. To me that would be like someone saying "I think Dusty Rhodes is a weak promo."

So in other word different rules for your favorites.

Why didn't Tanahashi main event TNA ppvs?

I don't think there is a ton of evidence to support the thesis that Eddy was more versatile than Dandy, and I say that as someone who thinks Eddy was a very versatile wrestler.

I love Thatcher and I know Kyle Matthews and Vordell Walker were in this tournament too. Is this available online?

The last part was added after the Angle induction

I actually think Colon v. Ayala is the crown jewel of Colon's career. The Hansen series is better (the Hansen series is better than almost anything I've ever seen really), but Ayala is a much more limited worker. I don't think Colon carried him, and I've seen other good Ayala matches and performances, but as a babyface I think you have to work really hard and smart to get the miles out of Ayala that Colon got. I also like the Barbed Wired Match a good bit fwiw.

I think it's reached the point where stronger moderation is required. I hate that because I have been in many heated exchanges over the years, but it's getting to the point now where we have people who can't stay on topic, can't help but take cheap shots, can't separate the post from the poster. This goes far beyond Brick and whatever was going on with him.

I would actually see The Moondogs as an interesting team to talk about more in the sense that they were an institution in their own bizarre way, than anything else. Not saying I see them as upper level, but I'd rate them above the Hart Foundation and teams of that ilk without a thought.

I want to know what was so important about the tag division in the WWF during Demolition's reign. I'm not even opposed to the notion of them being in this discussion, I just want someone to make the pitch to me about importance of the division. On MNM, I think it does wrong to say Smackdown during their era was comparable to 1986 AWA and this is coming from someone who loves 1986 AWA. Smackdown was a healthy show, for the biggest promotion in the world. MNM were a rare tag act in the modern era that had some value and they could work all over the cards against makeshift main eventers, or more traditional teams. The titles actually meant something when they had them - the Rockers never had the titles. Now having said that I agree with most of what you said about The Rockers. I think they are absolutely tremendous as a team, and among the best teams we have footage from to come out of the States. I could see someone pitching them as being stronger candidates than MNM on the strength of their work, but it's worth noting that MNM would probably be my number two tag team in WWF history (going off the top of my head) in ring after only the Rockers.

A few more things on the PR front: I'm a bit confused about the 87 Anniversary show numbers. My assumption was that the 23k was the number of people in the building for the stadium show headlined by Chicky v. Invader, not the combined number of the three shows together. If that were the combined number for the three shows I would have to assume it would have been a disappointment, but then again maybe not. Also having seen the footage of the show it sure as hell looks like a stadium show attended by a massive crowd - 23k doesn't seem out of the question. Is it possible that that show did 23k paid and the other two shows did strong numbers as well? Where were the other shows held? I know IWA/WWC was a really interesting rivalry and period in Puerto Rican wrestling history, but I'm less certain how well the shows were actually doing. You often hear about guys getting credit for things done during that run, but I have no clue how strong a period it was. Obviously it wasn't anything close to the peak, but my question is was business noticeably stronger during that period? Also what kind of business did the AWF do before it collapsed?

I've heard that before, but I figure it's worth a shot to see if Boricua has any clue where they could be found.

Without doing the research I don't think TNT is a strong candidate. At best he'd be behind Colon, Abby (who is already in, though you could argue he would be in even without Puerto Rico), Invader I, Hugo and Chicky. I think you could argue the PR run of the Sheepherders makes them candidates who are equal to or better than TNT as well, though I feel less strongly about that. Not sure how he would compare to Miguel Perez Sr., but a lot of that would depend on how you look at Perez run teaming with Rocca which has nothing to do with PR. But that is before any research. More importantly, the initial point of all of this was that Dave's claim that there were no candidates from PR he could even dump into that "Other" category with Colon strikes me as pretty obviously untrue. Again, a surface level review of TNT tells me he is a better candidate than a lot of the people currently on the ballot. In fact you could argue that TNT "ticks a lot of the boxes" as noted before that a lot of guys who are already in have ticked. A memorable, enduring gimmick, that was a part of multiple big angles? Check. Major title wins/feuds against top stars? Check. Headlining major shows and house show runs that did strong business? Check. Longevity as a star by the standards so often applied to others? Check. I actually think his international career would be considered a plus in almost any other situation. It's often held against Colon that he didn't get over anywhere other than PR (really that's untrue, but anywhere other than WWC/Capital Sports promotion I would concede), but I think it's fair to say that Savio definitely got over in the WWF. If you compare his international run to the run of guys like Jericho or Ultimo or even Sting (all of who's international careers I've seen cited as evidence they should be in) it's hard to see how it's worse. Please note that I'm not arguing "these bad candidates are in, so TNT should be in," so much as I'm noting that I think if TNT had the exact same career but it wasn't based out of PR he'd be considered a strong candidate by the same voter base that has voted in some other questionable candidates. And more importantly, I think A. deserves more research as does PR as a whole and B. could easily be put on the ballot in the "Other" section

The difference is Hogan was a huge draw. Orton is actually a proven anti-draw, who was bested by noted HoF level box office draw Mark Henry

Cesca is one of the guys who popped up in that random match that was on youtube a couple of years back which was completely incredible IIRC. Now there is a guy I'd like to learn more about

Great stuff Jose. One thing I would say is that I strongly believe that guys who "maintain" do deserve credit. They don't deserve the same amount of credit you would give to guys who clearly popped houses by virtue of their presence (Hogan, Londos, Rogers, Andre and not that many others), but I'm of the opinion that if people keep paying to see an act, it means the act is doing something right. To that end I would give Los Misioneros de la Muerte real credit as drawing cards which adds to their case. I would also note that 7 years is really not that short of a run at all as headliners. Backlund is in on less than that (though I don't think he was when you wrote this) and he is another guy where it could be argued that he "maintained" and didn't pop business to new levels. Cena basically got in on seven years as a drawing card up top. I think Michaels got in way too soon, but he got in on way less than seven years as a headliner. If you think it's unfair to compare them to guys like that who were focal point single stars look at the Midnight Express - six years together, the last year or two of which were not in anything close to a headlining capacity. The Birds if we are being really generous could maybe be stretched out to seven years, but the Gordy/Hayes/Roberts unit really had what...five as true headline acts? The Road Warriors? Probably right around seven years at that top level before falling down into solid upper mid-card spots. Anyway the point is that 7 years isn't a small amount of time. Certainly not small enough to be a real negative and it could be argued that amount of time as a relevant act is more of a plus than anything. Also, and I am getting like a broken record here, but do you mind if I cross post that in the thread I have over at the figure four board on potential HoF candidates?

Well here's the delayed reply. Sorry if the following post is a bit rambling. I'll tackle the command of English question first. Honestly, I would say only a minority have a good command of English. A larger segment may understand English to varying degrees, but it's a low proportion that I would say have a good command of English in terms of speaking and writing, particularly outside of the major metropolitan areas. There is also the phenomenon that there is Spanglish and a bit of adopting and incorporating English words into the everyday Spanish spoken here that's cropped up in recent years. Before getting to Hugo and Chicky, there are a few details of how Capitol Sports Promotions (CSP) would present their shows that I should mention. The dynamic was usually faces (for the most part native Puerto Ricans, with some foreign allies sprinkled in) against invading foreigners. That was more or less the basic formula from the start of the promotion. What's interesting is that native Puerto Ricans were usually not heels. Those that were, were almost always under a mask and billed of unspecified origin (ex. Invader when he first appeared, The Medicos, etc.). Rosters would be small, around 10-14 wrestlers who worked the house shows (with some additional jobbers for TV). You're only consistent roster members were those that had established residence in Puerto Rico (be it native or foreigner). With the semi regular churn of foreigners who did not speak Spanish, two roles were very important for the TV shows: Show host/presenter/interviewer and the heel manager. In the case of the show host, the role included: - Be the constant presence, the glue of the TV show broadcast - Inform fans of events and news and hype them (think Event Center or Update with Mean Gene) - Conducted interviews and would translate where needed - Usually doubled as announcer for big shows - Was the voiceover person for the house show card ads Basically, think of Lance Russell in Memphis and you get the idea of the role. The one additional detail is that the show host was also typically the show's producer during this time. For example, Rickin Sanchez's production company was in charge of the show and he served the role of host (he's the man in glasses you see conduct those desk interviews with the wrestlers about upcoming cards in the 82-83 shows). The other important role is that of the heel manager. This person would basically serve as the anchor for the heel side, since the heel side usually featured foreigners who would come in for a run and then leave (although a few would come back with some regularity). These heel managers were usually active or semi-active wrestlers, and because of the small roster size they were called upon to get in the ring on a somewhat regular basis to fill out the cards. Basically, the heel manager would: - Provide the promotion with a stable heel anchor and provide a sense of continuity to the heel side - Serve to help introduce the newcomers to the territory by hyping them up when they arrived ('this is my new weapon to take out so and so'), which allowed them to gain instant heat or feuds due to being aligned with said manager. (Ex. Jason arriving as Chicky's new hired gun to take out his hated rival Invader 1) - Serve as the mouthpiece for the heels or translate for those that did their interviews if needed - When the heels are only coming in for a couple of dates per month, the heel manager is the one that has to keep the feud alive either via promos or getting in the ring. (Ex. Chicky when Hansen was not around during the Colon/Hansen feud) - If a heel left abruptly, the heel manager could easily pick up the feud and have the heat put on him (Ex. When Manny Fernandez left soon after Invader 3's injury, credit for masterminding the attack was taken by Chicky to continue the feud). As far as I'm aware, the first wrestler to also serve as heel manager was El Rayo de Bayamon. He was originally a lower card face who turned on Miguel Perez Sr. during a tag match. Afterwards, during an interview where he was denouncing the betrayal, Perez exclaimed that El Rayo was nothing more than a Barrabas (clearly a mix up, I presume he meant a Judas but said that name instead). El Rayo adopted that as his name, and he served as the first notable heel manager (while still wrestling) for Capitol Sports. Barrabas would lose a hair vs. hair match vs. Miguel Perez which led to him adopting his trademark bald head and facial hair look. Barrabas would serve in this role for a couple of years before leaving the company due to some legal problems. He would return around 82-83. With this background and context, we'll move on to Hugo and Chicky. First we'll talk about Hugo Savinovich. Hugo first arrived to CSP in 1978, after wrestling for Arturo Mendoza's promotion on the west coast of the island. He would have been 19 years old. When the heads of the promotion heard Hugo's mic skills, it was decided to make him a heel manager. His first two charges were Kendo Kimura and Hiro Sasaki. This highlights the role the heel manager had of being both the mouthpiece and getting across the storyline points for the heels who didn't speak. His third charge would be none another than a debuting Abdullah the Butcher. It is well known that the Carlos Colon and Abdullah the Butcher feud is what really pushed the promotion forward in the late 70's and from there onwards. What gets forgotten is that Hugo was a key player in this feud, since he was Abdullah's manager. He was the one who antagonized the crowd, cut the interviews and pushed the madness that was Abdullah. From 78 through 83, Hugo was one who would bring in Abdullah, whom he called 'mi monstro, mi maquina' ('my monster, my machine') whenever he was attacked or injured by a face to avenge him. To give an idea of how important Hugo was during those years as a manager, here is a list of wrestlers he managed: Kendo Kimura , Hiro Sasaki, Abdullah the Butcher, The Medics (Jose Estrada , Johnny Rodz & Don Kent), The Fabulous Kangaroos, Mr. Fuji, Toru Tanaka, Mr. Pogo, Mitsu Ishikawa, Haru Sonoda, Tamba, King Tonga, Gorilla Monsoon, Buddy Landell, The Mongolian Stomper, Ox Baker, Bob Sweetan, Dory Funk Jr, Terry Funk, Kendo Nagasaki, The Sheik, Bruiser Brody & los Pastores(The Sheepherders: Luke Williams, Butch Miller & Jonathan Boyd who was billed as Jonny Miller). Many of these names were the top rivals of Carlos Colon, the Invaders, Jose Luis Rivera and their allies during those years. Basically, any heel that was to be positioned at the top of the card was usually paired with Hugo. During the early 80's, Hugo also served as the English commentator for the shows that were sent to air in Trinidad & Tobago, Barbados and the Virgin Islands (places where CSP held shows). In late 83, they ran an angle where Hugo was injured by Carlos Colon. By his time, Barrabas had returned to the promotion and was serving as a manager. While Hugo was out injured, he entrusted his wrestlers to Barrabas so that he could manage their affairs while he was gone. When Hugo returned, Barrabas had hijacked all of his wrestlers, including Abdullah. This started a feud between Hugo and Barrabas which turned Hugo face. By late 1984, he became the TV show presenter when a disagreement between Rickin Sanchez and Capitol Sports resulted in Sanchez leaving and his production company no longer produce the show. Thus from 84-91, Hugo assumed the role of TV show host/presenter/interviewer/commentator and also became the behind the scenes producer of the show. In interviews Hugo has mentioned that he is very proud of Aniversario 87, an event he was the producer of and had the complication of occurring at three different locations at the same time. He even donned the tights during this period a couple of times to face off against Eric Embry, El Profe and Billy Joe Travis. Hugo would go to the newly formed AWF in late 91, where he would serve the same roles he had for CSP. A lot of local fans point to Hugo leaving CSP as one of the clear signs of its decline in presentation. The AWF would do well initially, but would eventually collapse due to a bloated payroll and the financial backer dropping out. From there, Hugo would make his way to the WWF and would eventually serve as the Spanish commentator for many years. He would also be involved with the IWA during it's first few years in Puerto Rico, but was not heavily involved after the first couple of years. With Hugo transitioned to the TV host role, other managers were brought in, but none of them lasted too long. Barrabas himself left sometime in 1985. Throughout 85 you had a different dynamic with the top heels. The Sheepherders had a flag bearer, Abdullah was accompanied by someone from JCP (ex. JJ Dillon at Aniversario 85), Eric Embry had Sasha as a valet, but there was no focal heel manager. That would change in 1986 when Chicky Starr stepped into the role. Chicky was different from the previous heel manager anchors. For one, he remained a full time active wrestler. He also happened to be the first prominent local in a very long time to go heel. At first, Chicky was not a manager. But after a month and half of feuding with Invader 1, he was offered the role . Ron Starr would be brought in to team with him and Chicky also became Abdullah's manager. Thus began his Sports Club stable. Another thing that made Chicky unique was that he was given a Piper's Pit style segment called Chicky Starr's Sport Shop and he would also have periods where he would serve as a commentator, all while remaining an active wrestler and manager. Chicky was given the top heels to manage and to serve as their translators or as the promo man / hype man for those that were incoming or not around full time. He also was credited as he mastermind behind several schemes, thus helping keep the heat from feuds going even as wrestlers cycled in and out on the heel side and also serving as the catalyst for some heel turns. In the fall of 1986 El Profe would be introduced along with TNT to help take some of the load of Chicky (he was already managing Ron Starr, Bruiser Brody before he turned on him, Abdullah the Butcher after Brody turned, Jason the Terrible and Stan Hansen in addition to wrestling and hosting the Sports Shop segment and to have someone manage the tag teams and mid carders. El Profe would increase in prominence by adding the Ninja Express to his stable, with Chicky and he teaming up for a few schemes throughout that time. Chicky was also the manager of two of the top heels of the late 80's, Hercules Ayala and Steve Strong. When Iron Sheik was brought in for a short run against Carlos Colon, he was put with Chicky. In 1990, Chicky would leave the company and would eventually help establish ASW. When that went under, he would resurface a few years alter in WWC, rekindling the feud with Invader 1 and once again being a prominent presence on the heel side. Any questions or details that need clearing up from this hopefully coherent post? This is an excellent post and I don't want it to get slept on. A few things that stand out to me: I don't think I'd read that origin of Barrabas story before but it is fucking awesome. Incidentally Barrabas was an extremely fun worker going from the early 80's studio footage we have. Unfortunately very little of that is competitive enough to be considered for an 80's set, but he could go. I knew from reading some other stuff that he had been a big star for the promotion, and I know I have heard about the hair v. hair match with Perez specifically, but I didn't know that he was the first guy to take on the heel manager/wrestler role. He's a guy I'd like to see more research done on if that is at all possible (more on that later). Another thing of note to me is that Capital Sports/WWC was technically an international promotion. I'm sure a lot of people will roll their eyes at that, or see it as a mere technicality, but I've seen matches from Trinidad that had huge crowds who were incredibly hot for the wrestlers, matches and angles that were being delivered. It interests me that they ran Barbados, Trinidad and the Virgin Islands as it increases the scope of the promotion and to me puts the lie to the "Colon was only over" in his little fiefdom. Yeah it's the same promotion, but that's never stopped people from giving Bret Hart or Rey or any number of other guys credit for "international star" status. I know Jovica promoted a lot of the Trinidad shows, but if Hugo was indeed the mouthpiece of the local t.v. in those areas that would mean something to me in terms of giving him a stronger look as a candidate. It shows another area where he had real value to the promotion, and an area that could be easily underrated. Overall I think you make a very strong case for Hugo not just deserving to be on the ballot, but actually being a Hall of Famer. If he was just the heel mouthpiece manager maybe not, though I tend to think the role you outline is super important to a promotion like WWC. But the fact that he was that heel mouthpiece, he was the heel mouthpiece of the heel that was the main rival of the promotions biggest star in the feud that established the promotion is a big time fed, and then the fact that the guy was a strong t.v. personality who had to hop back and fourth between languages for different markets, translate on the spot with interviews, and apparently actually produce the shows....Yeah I think that thirteen year run is a very strong one. Having said that, I would be interested to hear what you would consider Hugo's negatives as a performer or as an HoF candidate. I'm not trying to sink him, I am just curious what his weaknesses or perceived weaknesses would be. With Chicky you laid out the role he worked and some of the positives, but as someone watching the footage right now it is completely impossible for me to fathom the WWC tv show or promotion in the second half of the 80's without Chicky Starr. I've compared him to Heenan, Jimmy Hart and Piper before and I think really he was a little bit of all of them. Because of the fact that Colon didn't work television all that often, his feud with Invader, or the guys he was managing, or his team with Ron Starr seemed to carry the shows. That's to say nothing of the sports shop itself. When I started with the Blackwell researcher while watching the AWA, khawk called Blackwell the MVP of the AWA from 1980-84, a sentiment that clawmaster (another huge AWA fan and results guru) agreed with. The one caveat was that both guys thought Blackwell had to give way to Heenan if you were counting managing. Well Starr was not the worker Blackwell was, but he was a solid hand, and like Heenan he had a role in damn near everything that was going on in the promotion, both weekly on tv, and on the major shows. He will pop up a ton on the PR Set, and was a big part of some major, major main events. In fact look at this: 1987 1- 3/29 Hulk Hogan vs Andre the Giant- WWF Title (WM3) Silverdome, Pontiac MI 78,000* (75,700 Paid $1,599,000. Vincent K. McMahon) 2- 9/20 Invader #1 vs Chicky Starr- Retirement & Mask vs Hair Match/ Road Warriors vs Dory & Terry Funk (14th Anniversary) Juan Ramon Loubriel Stadium, Bayamon PR 23,000* ($400,000 CCTV Locations. Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 3- 12/26 Honky Tonk Man vs Randy Savage- IC Title MSG, New York City NY 22,076* (Vincent K. McMahon) 4- 11/26 Carlos Colon vs Hercules Ayala- WWC Title Figure Four Match Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 22,000 (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 5- 11/26 Hulk Hogan & Bam Bam Bigelow & Paul Orndorff & Don Muraco & Ken Patera vs Andre the Giant & King Kong Bundy & One Man Gang & Butch Reed & Rick Rude- Elimination Match (S.Series) Richfield Coliseum, Richfield OH 21,300* (Vincent K. McMahon) 6- 2/21 Randy Savage vs George Steele- IC Title/ 20 Man Battle Royal: Hercules winner- Hulk Hogan & Andre the Giant (SNME) Joe Louis Arena, Detroit MI 21,000* (Vincent K. McMahon) 7- 1/02 Hulk Hogan vs Kimala- WWF Title Tacoma Dome, Tacoma WA 20,476* ($209,443.50 Turn Away Crowd. Vincent K. McMahon) 8- 9/21 Hulk Hogan vs One Man Gang- WWF Title MSG, New York City NY 19,745* (Vincent K. McMahon) 9- 10/16 Billy Graham vs Butch Reed- Cage Match MSG, New York City NY 19,700* ($235,000 Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 2/14 Hulk Hogan vs Kimala- WWF Title The Spectrum, Philadelphia PA 19,416* (Vincent K. McMahon) 1988 1- 7/31 Hulk Hogan vs Andre the Giant- Cage Match (Wrestle Fest) Milwaukee County Stadium, Milwaukee WI 25,866 ($350,000) 2- 1/30 Carlos Colon vs Iron Sheik- WWC Universal Title Chicky Starr Suspended in Cage Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 25,000* (Some Reported as 30,000* Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 3- 8/23 Carlos Colon vs Hercules Ayala- WWC Universal Title Roberto Clemente Stadium, San Juan PR 23,000 (Victor Jovica & Carlito Colon) 4- 8/29 Mega Powers (Hulk Hogan & Randy Savage) vs Mega Bucks (Ted DiBiase & Andre the Giant)- Jesse Ventura Ref (Summerslam) MSG, New York City NY 20,000* ($335,345 Vincent K. McMahon) 5- 1/25 Hulk Hogan & Bam Bam Bigelow vs Ted DiBiase & Virgil w/Andre the Giant MSG, New York City NY 19,750* (Vincent K. McMahon) 6- 11/28 Hulk Hogan vs Big Bossman MSG, New York City NY 19,700* ($240,000 Vincent K. McMahon) 7- 11/04 Hulk Hogan vs Big Bossman/ Ultimate Warrior vs Honky Tonk Man- IC Title Bradley Center, Milwaukee WI 18,662* (Vincent K. McMahon)8- 6/25 Randy Savage vs Ted DiBiase- WWF Title Cage Match MSG, New York City NY 18,500 (Vincent K. McMahon) 9- 3/27 Randy Savage vs Ted DiBiase- WWF Title Tournament Finals/ Hulk Hogan vs Andre the Giant- WWF Title Tournament (WM4) Trump Plaza, Atlantic City NJ 18,165* ($1,400,000 Vincent K. McMahon) 10- 5/05 Perro Aguayo & Villano III vs Black Power I (Vincente Carbajal Salas) & II (Johnny Vanelli Guzman)- Double Hair vs Double Mask Match El Toreo de Cuatro Caminos, Naucalpan Mexico 18,000* (Carlos Maynes) 10- 9/30 Bestia Salvaje vs El Hijo del Santo- National Welterweight Title/ Fabuloso Blondy (Ken Timbs) vs Lizmark- NWA Light Heavyweight Title (55th Anniversary Part II) Arena Mexico, Mexico City Mexico 18,000* (Paco Alonso) 10- Royal Rumble: Jim Duggan/ Hulk Hogan & Andre the Giant & Ted DiBiase Interview (Rumble) Copps Coliseu, Hamilton ONT 18,000* (16,200 Paid. Vincent K. McMahon) Chicky was basically a main event attraction on the second highest drawing show in the world for two straight years - on top of being a huge attraction for the company on a day-to-day basis. He doesn't have the longevity of Hugo and I can't compare them directly because so little of Hugo's peak as a manager/wrestler is available. But Chicky certainly is a strong enough guy to at least put up for discussion in the "Other" region. A couple of questions: Can I send that post to Dave or copy and paste it to the Observer board in the thread I have about possible candidates to add to the ballot? Is there any place with WWC attendance figures and/or detailed results? If someone can point me in the direction of the tools, I have no problem working on a results review/data dump for Colon, Chicky, Invader or even TNT. Actually TNT in a way interests me the most, because I think he is a guy where if he had almost the exact same resume as he currently has, but was born on the mainland and had his career in mainland promotions he would be seen as a solid candidate and might already be in (in some ways I see him as similar to a Chris Jericho sort of candidate, but with something more like Taker's gimmick). I'm not even saying he's an HoFer, but he's a case of a guy where I think to steal a JDWism, he "ticks a lot of the boxes" that people look for in Hall of Famers - except the bulk of his career took place in Puerto Rico.