Dylan Waco

I think most wrestling fans have been trained to be negative about storyline payoffs over the course of the last twelve years. I know I have and I am a guy who watches dam near everything

I agree obviously, but I"m in between Johnny's position and Matt's in the sense that I'm much more likely to listen to criticism from a regular viewer and/or take it seriously then I am by someone who occasionally skims results. On the other hand we all form opinions on whether or not products, events and choices are worth are time without watching, experiencing, doing them and it seems silly to argue that those who say "I read the results and this looks like I would hate it" are "wrong" to say that.

People don't think they are going to get what they want.

I've never hit Exposer in the face with a claw hammer. How do I know it's something I won't enjoy if I haven't done it? How can I form an opinion on it at all if I haven't experienced it?

What I would say is that detailed, heavy handed criticism based on spoilers/written reports/et. without ever seeing the shows does strike me as pretty ridiculous more often than not

I don't know if that's really true. I read TNA spoilers all the time and think "boy there is damn near no way I'm going to like that." Then once every couple of months I give them a chance and it turns out I'm right - TNA sucks.

I was actually going to resist filling out a ballot at this point since a lot can still change, but why not? Wrestler of the Year 1) John Cena 2) Daniel Bryan 3) Kazuchika Okada This is likely to change, but at this point in the year Cena has still been the biggest star in wrestling by a wide margin and was in the headline match at the biggest grossing show in wrestling history. It's not likely going to hold up to be his year, but it seems crazy for him not to be in consideration for the top spot at this point, especially when he had some truly excellent matches in the relevant time frame. Bryan has been the most over guy in wrestling, is one of the top four workers on the planet an is obviously having the "career year" you sort of look for in the days where drawing power is a more complicated matter than in the past. I can see arguments for both Okada and Tanahashi, but for now it really comes across to me as being more of Okada's year and I prefer him as a worker even if neither guy is a favorite of mine. If Casas v. Rush happens sometime before the end of Nov and does any kind of business I could see a case for one or both of them cracking into the top three. Tag Team of the Year: 1) Roman Reigns and Seth Rollins 2) Rampage Brown and Robbie Dynamite 3) Thunder and Lightning There are actually a lot of tag teams I currently enjoy on some level, though the vast majority of them are indie teams that very few people are familiar with. I have The Shield guys at number one now because they are a tag team that is part of a main even or near main event level act and have had good matches. The knock against them is that by far their best matches have been as a trio and when they are defending their belts it seems like a secondary matter at best. The best working team in the world that I've seen this year is Brown/Dynamite though they haven't appeared as a unit a ton either. WWC has had some shows that have done very well this year (all things considered of course) and Thunder and Lightning are an extremely charismatic team, that feels like they have been a big part of what that promotion has been doing right. Tons of teams that I could see as honorable mentions here including The Untouchables (Drew Haskins/Jeremiah Plunkett), The Usos (who have gotten over against all odds), Brian Rivers/Casey Cage and of course Daniel Bryan/Kane if for no other reason how over they were. This is a really fluid category to me and could completely change between now and when ballots are due. Match Of The Year: 1) Charles Lucero vs. Rey Hechicero, Monterrey 8/4 2) William Regal vs. Kassius Ohno, NXT 3/21 3) Antonio Cesaro vs. Daniel Bryan, WWE 7/22 One and two I am pretty solid on at this point. Three? Fuck there are probably close to twenty matches I could put in that slot and wouldn't feel bad about it. Ranking matches is always way harder to me than ranking wrestlers. In any case if this were going down now I'd cast my lot with a great match between the two best workers in the WWE if not the entire world this year. But in all honesty I think that match is lateral with a couple of dozen others (hell if someone argued it wasn't even a top three Cesaro match this year I wouldn't think it was a strange claim). Doing a top 100 matches is going to be WAY harder than a top 500 wrestlers. Most Outstanding Wrestler: 1) Antonio Cesaro 2) Negro Casas 3) Daniel Bryan This is going to be at least a four way race (Virus is in the five hole and with one or two big performances could burst into the top tier) with these three guys and Rush probably right to the bell. There is a part of me that will want to shut Bryan out at the end of the day as he gets the benefit of every doubt anyhow and won't need my vote anyway, but the reality is he's having a hell of a year and it is going to be hard to leave him out of a top three. I have Casas above him now because I think when both guys have been cast in the role of "out of control trios worker, who works with intensity turned to ten" Casas has been more interesting and dynamic then Bryan was (not a knock on Bryan, I loved his Mark Briscoe routine, but you pretty much knew, spot for spot what you were getting every time), but I do think Casas needs at least one more big time singles match this year to finish ahead of Bryan assuming Bryan keeps pace. If it's against Rush hair v. hair that might jump both guys ahead of Bryan. Cesaro probably runs the greatest risk of falling out of the top three because of the chances he is likely to get (not that many relative to others), but the guy has been so god damned great in every setting he's been thrown in, against such a hugely diverse array of workers (including a murder's row of boring, green an shit workers earlier in the year) it's hard not to see him up there. I have him number one right now because unlike Casas and Bryan he has no disappointing performances and because of Main Event and NXT giving him multiple chances to work lengthy matches, he's actually probably had as broad a spectrum of quality matches as anyone in recent memory. Again this category could flip all around pretty easily. Best Box Office Draw: 1) John Cena 2) The Rock 3) Brock Lesnar I haven't looked closely enough at this to feel super strongly about the guys I have rated, but I think The Rock's non-Mania numbers were less great than would have been expected, so I feel justified in giving Cena the top spot. Open to persuasion here. Feud of the Year: 1) Negro Casas vs Rush 2) Rey Hechicero v. Charles Lucero 3) Antonio Cesaro v. Sami Zayn I can't imagine any scenario in which my number one would change as the violence, intensity and spectacle of the trios involving those guys has been the most viscerally exciting thing in wrestling this year by a wide margin. Hechicero v. Lucero produced the best 1,2,3 punch series of matches this year if you count the trios on the front end of the singles matches. Cesaro and Zayn have had the best and most well developed WWE feud of the year (especially since Cena/Henry was a one off) and produced great matches, including a final match that played off of the entire history of the feud in one match which is something you don't often see these days. It feels wrong to leave Park v. Wagner out of this category, but it hasn't been documented in a linear/episodic way. Could probably be convinced Team Hell No v. The Shield belongs, but overcoming my Kanephobic stance is not easy. It feels like I'm missing something obvious but I'm not sure what. Most Improved: 1) Roman Reigns 2) Seth Rollins 3) Antonio Cesaro Disagree with Tim and most everyone else as I thought Rush was the easy pick last year. Guy went from one of the worst guys on a massive roster, to one of the best couple of guys on the same roster. Anyway I could go either way on Reigns and Rollins for one and two. The important thing is that I used to hate Tyler Black and he's quite in the WWE. Reigns was feared to be the albatross on The Shield and in some ways has come across as the key piece. Both seem like logical one and two picks to the point where the order doesn't really matter. Cesaro is kind of a controversial pick, especially because he started to heat up around this time last year. Still I was not high on him for the bulk of his indie run and would have never believed I would rate him as the best guy on the planet. He's come into his own as a worker in the WWE. I could see Ishii getting some votes here, but I don't think he's improved so much as he's just getting the chances now Best on Interviews: 1) Mark Henry 2) John Cena 3) Bully Ryback This is a tough category because there are a lot of guys who I enjoy as promos on some level, but I don't think they are great promos in the sense that I don't think their talking is going to talk people into a building. Henry had the best promo of the year (by a safe margin my view) so he's number one. Cena is more hit or miss but his marquee promos - post-Mania Raw, the stuff opposite Bryan - really come across as some of the better in ring promos I've seen out of an ace in a long time. Bully Ryback is funny as fuck and I actually think he has rehabbed himself through mic work, which I wouldn't have guessed was possible. Most Charismatic: 1) Daniel Bryan 2) Negro Casas 3) Rush Bryan has to win this at this point, but Casas and Rush are both extremely engaging wrestlers in their own right. Best Technical Wrestler 1) Virus 2) Blue Panther 3) Rey Hechicero I still think this is pretty meaningless, but I operate under the assumption it's the matwork award. If more CJ Banks, Timothy Thatcher or James Mason pop up I could see one or both of them slipping into the top three. Otherwise this is the Lucha award. Best Brawler: 1) LA Park 2) Luke Gallows 3) Brock Lesnar I'm open to other candidates after one, but Park is a guy that can have a great brawl with anyone, in any setting. Completely reckless, psychotic, war machine. Gallows has been really awesome in the few brawls he's been in this year and will probably get more opportunities as the year goes on. Lesnar was really great in the Punk match, but the HHH bore fest from Mania drags him out of contention for the top spot. I know he's out for the rest of the year with injury, but the better Necro brawls from this year were really great also. Best Flyer: 1) Shockercito 2) Andrew Everett 3) ACH Who doesn't like a super fast midget, who has dynamic highspots and is fifty times better than the bigger guy his look is based on? I kind of hate how Everett has been pigeonholed as a flyer, but he is a fresh face on the indie scene doing crazy shit and has had several matches I've enjoyed a good deal. ACH is probably the most charismatic guy doing the the flips and flops in the U.S. though I am kind of 50/50 between him and Rich Swann for that last slot. Most Overrated 1) American Wolves 2) Ken Anderson 3) HHH I can't stand HHH as a rule, but I do think he is at least theoretically good in his current role. He still has to make the top three because he was so awful in the Brock feud. Anderson is complete garbage, to the point where I don't understand how he's employed. The Wolves seem like the definition of overpushed, as even if you are into their shit, they long ago ran out of interesting things to do and their presence at the top of the ROH tag team heap has had the effect of locking fresher and more interesting acts in the undercard. Most Underrated: 1) Antonio Cesaro 2) Luke Gallows 3) William Regal With Regal it's likely he's just at that point in his career where even he doesn't want to work a ton, but the guy is still capable of producing MOTYC and is also underutilized as an announcer, so in my eyes he's the definition of underrated. Gallows was the best guy in TNA when they let him go. Cesaro is the easy winner here though. Tremendously great worker, who can match up with anyone, very good and unique look, serviceable on the mic and the guy had really gotten himself over before they started to tear away at his push. He should be near the main event scene if not in it Promotion of the Year. 1) WWE 2) CMLL 3) NJPW NJPW should probably be second factoring in business stuff, but I would just much rather watch CMLL. There is a part of me that wants to rate DSCW or Empire my favorite Southern indies, but it's hard to make a case for either. Best TV Show: 1) NXT 2) Main Event 3) CMLL I forget which of the CMLL shows has had the best stuff, but I think they lost of the shows anyway. NXT has been the best overall show of the year by a wide margin, including interesting storylines, good promos, fun special appearances, a good look on tv and good matches. Main Event has had some of the better tv matches of the year and is the best pure wrestling show on average. Now that SAW looks to have dumped the awful Nick Nitrus and they are on a bit of a role with solid tv shows, I might throw them a bone and slide them into the top three at the end of the year if one of the other shows slips. Rookies: 1) Charlotte 2) Jimmy Korderas 3) I give Dave credit for doing the research every year on this, but it is an award who's time has passed. I like the idea of voting for Flair's kid because she is athletic and has a good look, but mainly because I think it's kind of funny. Korderas really did work hard in his match for SMASH. I can't even think of a third person I could vote for even for my own amusement. Best Non-Wrestler: 1) Zeb Coulter 2) Paul Heyman 3) Maria No one will agree with this, but I find the guy hilarious, in large part because my dad is such a huge mark for him. I enjoy Heyman a lot of the time, but another part of the time I find his segments embarrassing. Maria is a pretty great second for Mike Bennett. Best TV announcer 1) William Regal 2) JBL 3) Michael Cole William Regal is the only announcer who I feel consistently adds to shows, the others can be fine at times. Worst Announcer 1) Nick Nitrus 2) Taz 3) Mike Tenay Is this a three vote category? No one else watches SAW, but Nitrus is clearly the worst announcer in wrestling history so he's the easy one. The other guys work for TNA so they are the easy two and three. Kevin Kelly gets off this year out of the kindness of my heart. Show of the Year. 1) Summerslam 2013 2) TLC 2012 3) G1 Day Four Summerslam will probably hold up in the number one slot, but I'm not sure about the rest of this. Money In The Bank was a really fun show, but I can't see rating it ahead of the other three. Still feels like I'm forgetting something and not just that PWS show with the four matches I really liked. Worst Major Show That TNA Hardcore Justice pre-taped show was the least inspired wrestling show I can remember seeing. It's not the worst show I've seen - maybe not even the worst show I've seen this year - but in terms of guys clearly not giving a fuck and just showing up for a check I've never seen anything like it. Worst Match Jay Lethal v. Eddie Edwards from PWG. Too lazy to look up the date now but that's one of the worst matches I've ever seen. Best Move: Lots of stuff I could see a case for here but if we are talking the move that makes me mark out the most the answer is 2 Cold Scorpio's "Dropping The Bomb" Most Disgusting Promotional Tactic: Nigel McGuinness using his hepatitis "secret" as a big reveal secret to sell his film, which also doubled as a propaganda piece meant to obscure other obvious issues they may have made him unemployable. There is a part of me that wants to vote for Quackenbush working a convoluted promotion self destruction gimmick to cover up his own failings as a businessman and husband, but I'm not sure that's as scummy as Nigel. Worst TV Show: TNA Impact Worst Promotion: TNA Worst Feud of The Year: HHH v. Brock Lesnar This may have helped draw some serious coin, but was a huge waste of Lesnar dates and that Mania match sucked horribly. Worst Gimmick: Aces and Eights Best Booker: Whoever books NXT and it's not close Best Promoter: Vice McMahon Best Gimmick: The Shield Hard to argue with this as for the first six months or so they were around they were as unique and fresh an act as I've seen in the WWE in ages and I also enjoy them in their current role. I do really love Bully Ryback though. Best Book: Mad Dogs, Midgets and Screw Jobs (Montreal History) by Pat Laprade and Bertrand Hebert. Easy pick but I'm biased. Holly's book was very good, but not at this level, particularly if you are interested in detailed historical research. Pretty sure Heroes and Icons was a contender last year and is ineligible. Best DVD: Barbed Wire City Easy pick but I'm biased.

Edge stayed over once Lita got him over as a main event heel. Yes he had Vickie after and yes I have my serious doubts that he would have ever heated up or stayed as hot without the ladies (he never seemed the same when he was on his own in terms of drawing heat and interest as a heel), but there is no question that he was a star of some note. I don't think Edge's offense was any good, but it was the ridiculous overacting that bothered me far more

I don't want to speak for others, but working a heat section does not require varied offense, it does however require offense that at least looks believable. Offense is important, but not necessarily for the reasons some people would have you believe (i.e it's not a game of "count the moves!")

I won't speak for his broader moveset, but the sports bar I used to watch the ppv's at was filled with people who were to some degree another Edge fans and yet it wasn't uncommon to hear them joking about the "running hug" or how silly the spear looked. It didn't effect their enjoyment of Edge, but it was something I heard a ton from fans well outside of this universe

With Cena you can point to micro and macro and most of his big supporters do both regularly. I would also note that this is a textbook case of why I hate "great match theory" because it ends up with people insulating themselves from discussing the finer points of what they like about things. The question I would ask is not dissimilar from the one Will asked. Forget me, or anything you think about how I feel about New Japan. Suppose you were talking to someone else who struck you as an open minded fan and he didn't think Tanahashi had very many good matches. What would you say to that person about why you enjoy Tanahashi? If the answer is "nothing" that's fine, but that's also pretty much a thread killer

I said this on the podcast the other day, but Virus is probably the most versatile guy on the planet right this second. He also is a rare example of a guy who is almost never in a bad trios match regardless of opponent or partners (though when he is teaming with Raziel and Cancerbero he's hardly teaming with scrubs)

Actually I want to be fair to Tanahashi here. I don't think he is nearly as "go, go" in the last year or so as he has come off to me at other times. I do think his matches often have other structural quirks that I strongly dislike, but it's not like he's a Dragon Gate guy either.

Excellent analysis, we've come to expect it from you. To answer Childs question, apparently the answer is no

I have written tons in this thread, with explicit examples, and responded to every point you made or question you brought up. You have consistently ignored the meat of my posts, cherry picking through them, while accusing me of trolling even though you have yet to actually engage any of my points. You pretty clearly took it personally that I was explicit with my criticisms of a wrestler you like, but have really said nothing on the wrestler in questions behalf. Now you are playing the martyr and engaging in more blatant lies. Get off the cross, we need the wood. I have zero problem arguing/debating things, even with people with whom I disagree intensely, but I do expect people to actually argue the points presented. That's not a ton to ask. I've had vehement, nasty disagreements with half of the people on this board if not more, do a podcast with a guy who is a huge fan of tons of wrestling I hate, and generally don't mind being called an asshole, crybaby, et, so long as the person doing it is actually doing it in the service of an interesting debate/argument. But I have no patience for people who feign outrage and then dodge, dodge, dodge. The only thing worse than a keyboard warrior, is a keyboard coward.

So basically jastrau97 is going to feign outrage at everything I write, refuse to respond to massive passages that he is unwilling or incapable of grasping/arguing the merits of, present no interesting thoughts on Tanahashi or Cena himself and instead argue against fantasies he's concocted in his head that he feels comfortable attributing to me. Yep, I should have just ignored him the first time around.

I don't have access to The Board at the moment, but I know I saw some of it there. My memory is that Meltzer gave a ton of credit to Suzuki for the match and came across as more praiseworthy of him than Tanahashi at least on the audio, though I could be wrong. Dave Musgrave hated Suzuki prior to the match and said the match turned him around on Suzuki and he came out thinking he was great (any time we talk about the match Suzuki gets brought up and not Tanahashi regardless of which one of us brings it up). I had at least one private conversation with one of the most vocal NJPW fans on the web, where he told me Suzuki was the star of the match (use your imagination) and at least a couple of other people I know who are much more personally inclined to like Tanahashi and NJPW than me who were raving about Suzuki post match and wouldn't even disagree with my comments on Tanahashi's contribution to the match when we discussed it. Offhand I actually can't think of any review I saw or discussion I heard about the match that didn't talk up Suzuki's performance more than Tanahashi's. I suppose they exist, but I don't remember seeing them.

I actually want someone to point me toward Garza's best stuff. I have really liked the guy at times, but I don't think I've ever seen him in a match where I thought he was the best guy in it. What are his best performances? Park is a strange beast in that when he is clicking on all cylinders he is maybe my favorite guy in Lucha, but he has been in so many uninspired matches in AAA over the last few years it's unbelievable. I wouldn't argue against him moving up a tier or even two, but I can see the argument in having him where he is also.

The problem is what is often the case with WWE angles, in that the extremes dominate the discussion with one side claiming every aspect of this has been brilliant and that those critical of it on any level or stupid assholes and the otherside claiming Bryan has been buried and will never recover and if you disagree you are just a blind WWE mark. I thought Raw sucked shit tonight aside from Randy/Cody, Cody's promo and Bully Ryback. I fucking hated the closing angle for a variety of reasons but especially because it had the "same old shit feel" AND the execution seemed really, really off. But that doesn't mean the whole thing is shit, Bryan has been buried, et.

Was Colon booking this stuff? If so we can add great booker to great draw, great promoter and yes, great worker

Was the 9K Okada v. Ibushi did for DDT considered a good house?

Nothing I said was meant as a troll, if you took it that way that's your problem not mine. I gave my honest opinions and tried to be as explicit as possible about why I think his strikes suck and gave a very explicit example to illustrate a case of when I thought they looked really terrible. I'm not a bullshitter who pretends to like things because I'm supposed to, nor am I the type to qualify everything I say about a wrestler with generous prose or "well it works for some people and not for me!" just because I assume we all know that is true about everything (for example some people think Bob Brown is an all time great...seriously). I always try to give Tanahashi credit as a star and over all act when that sort of thing comes up because I do think it matters, but that is irrelevant to this discussion On the indie wrestler point, we can agree to disagree, but it is bad form to work the "you don't watch enough NJPW to have a real opinion" gimmick, in the same thread where you are basically saying "these indie guys I don't watch can't be better than Tanahashi because....they can't be." You also are wrong about what NJPW I have seen, but your whole argument so far has been strawmen and assumptions and you haven't even offered a mild defense of anything Tanahashi does, so I'm not even sure it's worth my time to continue engaging. Still I will if only to hammer home things I thought were obvious. Again the point is not that you need to drop concussion level shots on your opponent to have good strikes. I thought I was clear on that, but maybe not. The point is that A. they should be believable at least in the universe in which they exist B. if the lightest working guy on your entire roster is the main event star it is extremely distracting. If it makes you feel better to read a "to me" at the end of the last sentence you can just know that of course that's what I mean, as that is what everyone means in every opinion based statement they make here or in life, including the vast majority of such statements that people don't feel the need to qualify in such a manner. Whatever the case may be I don't subscribe to a binary world where everyone is either Futen-level shootkicking people or in another camp that ranges from Jerry Lawler to 1988 Jimmy Valiant (I left Tanahashi out so as not to offend). Top 500 talk doesn't seem like it belongs in this thread, though I will grant there are problems inherent in such a project when you don't have as much footage from certain guys, you prioritize other things more, et. But if it makes you feel any better I've watched more NJPW than that (some kind folks have uploaded house shows on youtube before, juniors tourney, et.). In any case the way I think about comparisons and stuff like that is something I have zero problem people questioning, criticizing, et., but I'd prefer to do it in that thread.

Can someone explain to me why Tanahashi would be a better candidate for WOTY this year than Okada? From where I sit this feels like Okada's year much more than it does Tanahashi's in terms of how the booking has gone, but maybe I'm not following right.

What does Tanahashi do in that match that is good? At the time I said that he avoided most of his more annoying traits and he added to it by virtue of the fact that he's the biggest star in Japan which gave the match a big match feel. But the match was all Suzuki. Incidentally that's not even a particularly controversial view. Even some of the bigger Tanahashi marks I've seen on the web gave Suzuki the bulk of the credit for the match. Tanahashi wasn't bad in the match, but when even those who think every match he's in is four stars, are heaping praise on his opponent far more than him, it's a pretty good sign who the clear star in the match was. And yes a guy selling the shit out of weak/middling offense, especially if they have great facials or body language can drastically elevate a match. Hell there are guys who have made entire careers off of that. Expanding beyond that, I don't think it's terribly controversial to believe that all time classics can involve one great worker in there against another guy who is just there and/or holding court without fucking up and/or a complete carry job (which is verbiage I avoided here). Offhand I can think of matches like Warrior v. Savage (where I thought Warrior added more than Tanahashi in the Suzuki match to be honest) or Bret v. Davey that are very highly regarded, where people either don't want to give one guy credit or don't think one guy deserves any credit. It's not as if it's some off the wall, completely absurd view, that no wrestling fan has ever expressed. But all of that misses the real point which is that there is exactly one match Tanahashi has had in his career that I think approaches/reaches that classic level and even his biggest fans concede he wasn't the best guy in the match. How is Kojima not in the Sasaki inspired group? I will grant there are differences between what you see out of Okada/Tanahashi/Naito and someone like say Goto or Makabe, but a lot of your fighting spirit no sells, back and four tempo, strike trading is near universal in Japan.

I watch it every week online. Production is really great for an indie, but aside from Vordell they don't really use any guys I like anymore.