JerryvonKramer

I'm watching a Ziggler match right now and the same thought occurred to me as every other time I've ever seen him: he reminds me of Mr. Perfect. Only not quite as good. Both of them do one of my least favourite moves: the flying mare.

This swinginess is why I developed the system because I disliked how arbitrary it felt.

It may be that Shawn needs to go down as opposed to Eddie going up.

Flair is a 10 because his character work is off the charts and because he carried himself as the epitome of a champion. He's a once or twice a generation type of guy in that category in my view. Hansen has an aura about him, especially in Japan that gives him that intangibles rating, although I could be persuaded to go down (though not up). Eddie's intangibles might be a bit low now you mention it, but currently he's on par with guys like Ted, Shawn Michaels, and Jumbo. I could probably be persuaded to up that to a 7 or even 8. I think Eddie has the character work but not necessarily the aura. Vader I think has the aura of a badass and appropriate character work, but I think lacks that big deal sort of vibe you get from a Rock, Choshu, Flair, or Savage. 6 is still a high rating if you consider that someone like a DiBiase, one of the all-time great heels in my view is there. And Harley Race, for many the quintessential tough guy NWA travelling champ is a 3. It's GWE, so the ratings are on the stingy side. I'd grant you though that it's probably the category that is least measurably quantifiable and most subjective.

If one match with a given opponent at that level is enough to include them, then yes, he should be a 10. It's 20 different opponents. The wording is "memorable" rather than ***1/2, so take that for what it is.

So are you arguing that Misawa should be a perfect 10 in the variety category? The threshold is about ***1/2

Longevity of peak continues to be the most difficult and problematic category. And there are some hard questions. For example should Hulk Hogan really get a 0 or do we give him 81-90? In the cases you outline, I'd be a lot more willing to cut Vader to 97 than give HBK his post-comeback years.

Misawa's rating does seem low to me, so by all means I welcome people you think are glaring omissions.

Jerry Blackwell Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 pinballing as a big man) = 6 Intangibles 4 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 80-87 = 7 years = 5 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, AWA, Memphis, JCP, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. King Tonga / Sheik Adnan Kaissey 2. Greg Gagne / Jim Brunzell, 3. The Crusher, 4. Ken Patera, 5. Stan Hansen, 6. Mad Dog Vachon, 7. Col. Debeers, 8. Billy Robinson, 9. Jerry Lawler, 10. Masked Superstar, 11. Dory Funk Jr, 12. Terry Funk Variety = 12 opponents = 6 30 Rick Martel Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 giving 100% in everything he does) = 10 Intangibles 4 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 80-87 = 7 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, AWA, WCW, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Buddy Rose, 2. Fuji / Saito, 3. Brunzell / Gagne, 4. Nick Bockwinkel, 5. Harley Race, 6. Ric Flair, 7. Stan Hansen, 8. Terry Funk, 9. Jumbo Tsuruta, 10. The Islanders, 11. Moondogs, 12. The Hangman, 13. Tito Santana, 14. Terry Gordy, 15. Boris Zuhkov, 16. Jimmy Garvin, 17. Shawn Michaels, 18. Razor Ramon, 19. Randy Savage, 20. Lex Luger Variety = 20 opponents = 10 41

Japan has produced many other "superworkers" who are generalists like that. Misawa, Kobashi and Kawada are all probably 9/10s or 10/10s in terms of their basic skills. Fujinami is another one. I'd probably argue Jushin Liger is one too. Hash just isn't in that mould in my view. Feel free to disagree, though, opinions are what the whole deal is about. Hash can face anyone, but he always does so on his own terms. Other specialists -- Stan Hansen, Ricky Morton, Jerry Lawler, Bob Backlund -- also can face anyone but always on their own terms. I guess there could be a wider discussion around whether my terms of "specialist" and "generalist" are either useful or accurate. But in my mind that's what I'm seeing when I look at these workers.

It is possible Hash had a better career than Hase in terms of output. Although, from what I've seen so far, watching their greatest hits, they seem comparable. A lot of NJ stuff seems to cap out around the ****1/2 range to me, and that has been true of both Hase and Hash, with one or two exceptions. I think Hase, however, is just more fully rounded as a worker than Hashimoto, who seems much more two dimensional to me. Those two dimensions being essentially drawn out matwork or kicks to the head. Hase feels much more like a classic US worker. Someone like Barry Windham or Arn or Ted or Chris Jericho, who can bump, sell, stooge if necessary, play the hero if necessary, throw bombs, take it to the mat, and focus on limbwork (which he does as good as anyone I've seen, apart from Arn) -- he also has bags of natural charisma, rare in a Japanese worker. I value those skills a lot. I don't think Hash is a "super worker" in that same way. He is more someone who has specific qualities or skills he can do better than anyone else. So I see the comparison as the specialist vs. the generalist. And I consistently value generalists as much as I value the specialists. I don't see Hash as "more talented" than Hase, but it's also true that I don't see Stan Hansen as "more talented" than Barry Windham, even though Hansen will finish a lot higher. By that token, I don't know for sure that Hase will finish above Hash for my list, because the output / volume gulf might swing things for Hash, but I suspect that he might. In my mind, it will be close though. And I don't really see either guy as a top 10-20 contender.

I noticed this morning that I'd made a mistake on Austin's Ability to work Different Roles rating which should be 7 not 5. That means he's on 37 not 35. Will have a think about his Great Matches. In my mind that 2001 stuff is more memorable than great. I think I reviewed the Benoit and Angle ones in recent memory.

You're definitely the first person I've seen argue that Ted and Gordy are better than they usually are in Japan, and that is interesting in itself. Yatsu stood out for me in many of the tags because 1. he was doing so much of the work, just as Tenryu does a lot of the work as Jumbo's number two, and 2. He has some of the best offense ever and throws bombs for fun. And those two things are memorable in themselves. I don't think you could just stick any random competent worker in there and get the same match, because what they were doing in itself is special. They were working 100 miles an hour. And since so much of that work is Yatsu's, I think you have to give it to him. A case where exceptional workrate is taken for granted?

Here's another way of presenting that info:

Cleaned up master-list. Now fully up-to-date (with some corrected adding up) and I can start adding new ratings again. Reworking some of the masterlist with some tweaks here and there: Ric Flair Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 +1 (for stamina) = 8 Intangibles 10 Great Matches 10 Length of Peak 8 (78-94) +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work as travelling champion +1 ability to brawl +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, WCW, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 9 1. Steamboat, 2. Race, 3. Lawler, 4. Kerry von Erich, 5. Jumbo, 6. Martel, 7. DiBiase, 8. Dusty, 9. Windham, 10. Wahoo, 11. Bockwinkel, 12. Magnum TA, 13. Garvin, 14. Morton, 15. Taylor, 16. Luger, 17. Funk, 18. Sting, 19. Savage, 20. Tenryu Variety = 20+ opponents = 10 55 Misawa Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 6 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 8 (90-04) +1 ability to work as junior +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Tiger Mask II) +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 4 1. Jumbo, 2. Kawada, 3. Kobashi, 4. Taue, 5. Hansen, 6. Gordy, 7. Akiyama, 8. Fuchi, 9. Steve Williams, 10. Johnny Ace, 11. Takayama, 12. Morishima Variety = 12 opponents = 6 44 Arn Anderson Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for spinebuster) = 9 Intangibles 8 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 6 (86-96) +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work singles matches +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (Mid-South, JCP, WWF, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Rock n Rolls, 2. Road Warriors, 3. Hart Foundation, 4. Windham, 5. Eaton, 6. Steamboat, 7. Dustin Rhodes, 8. Regal, 9. Hogan, 10. Flair, 11. Pillman, 12. Rockers Variety = 12 opponents = 6 39 Ted DiBiase Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for fistdrop / scoop powerslam) = 9 Intangibles 6 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 6 (79-88) +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Million Dollar Man) +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Amarillo, WWF, GCW, Mid-South, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 7 1. JYD, 2. Freebirds, 3. Magnum TA, 4. Brad Armstrong, 5. Duggan, 6. Flair, 7. Murdoch, 8. Tenryu, 9. Jumbo, 10. Choshu / Yatsu, 11. Hogan, 12. Savage, 13. Virgil, 14. Jake, 15. Dusty / Dustin Rhodes, 16. Steiners, 17. Harley Race, 18. Terry Taylor, 19. Butch Reed, 20. Bob Sweetan Variety = 20 opponents = 8 42 Bobby Eaton Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 2 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 6 (83-92) +1 ability to work singles +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Mid-South, WCW) +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Mantell / Cobra, 2. Rock n Rolls, 3. Wrestling 2 / Magnum TA, 4. Watts / JYD, 5. Fantastics, 6. Samoan Swat Team, 7. Original Midnight Express, 8. Flair, 9. Arn Variety = 9 opponents = 4 33 Dory Funk Jr. Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 3/3 +1 (for counter wrestling) = 7 Intangibles 2 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 6 (69-79) +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work as travelling champion +1 ability to carry promotion / work as company ace +1 ability to work brawls +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Puerto Rico, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 6 1. Jack Brisco, 2. Jerry Brisco, 3. Jumbo, 4. Horst Hoffman, 5. Baba, 6. Sheik, 7. Abdullah the Butcher, 8. Inoki, 9. Bruiser Brody, 10. Mike Graham, 11. Lawler, 12. Hansen / Gordy, 13. Bockwinkel / Lanza, 14. Martel / Zenk, 15. Billy Robinson, 16. Hogan / JYD, 17. Sakaguchi Variety = 17 opponents = 8 34 Terry Funk Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 9 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 8 (74-89) +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work as travelling champion +1 ability to carry promotion / work as company ace +1 ability to work technical matches +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work the hardcore style +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Chainsaw Charlie) +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Puerto Rico, Japan, WWF, ECW) Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 10 1. Jack / Jerry Brisco, 2. Race, 3. Jumbo, 4. Giant Baba, 5. The Sheik, 6. Abdullah the Butcher, 7. Bockwinkel, 8. Lawler, 9. Hansen, 10. Brody, 11. Colon, 12. Hogan, 13. JYD, 14. Martel, 15. Steamboat, 16. Flair, 17. Eddie Gilbert, 18. Cactus Jack, 19. Sabu, 20. Onita Variety = 20+ opponents = 10 53 Rick Rude Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 = 7 Intangibles 7 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 89-92 = 3 years = 2 + 1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 abiltiy to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWCW, JCP / WCW, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Rock n Rolls, 2. Wahoo McDaniel, 4. Jake Roberts 5. Ultimate Warrior, 6. Ricky Steamboat, 7. Dustin Rhodes, 8. Sting, 9. Chono Variety rating = 9 opponents = 4 30 Jack Brisco Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for selling of holds) = 9 Intangibles 2 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 71-83 = 12 years = 7 + 1 ability to work heel + 1 ability to work tags + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 ability to work as traveling champion + 3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Dory Funk Jr, 2. Baba, 3. Terry Funk, 4. Jumbo, 5. Inoki, 6. Bill Watts, 7. Harley Race, 8. Jerry Lawler, 9. Paul Jones, 10. Ric Flair, 11. Roddy Piper, 12. David von Erich, 13. Bob Orton Jr (w/ Valiant / Weaver), 14. Adonis / Murdoch Variety rating = 14 opponents = 7 38 Harley Race Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 3 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 73-84 = 11 years = 7 + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 abiltiy to work as travelling champion + 1 ability to work tags + 3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. Jack Brisco, 2. Terry Funk, 3. Giant Baba, 4. Jumbo, 5. Ric Flair, 6. Kerry von Erich, 7. Ted DiBiase, 8. Mil Mascaras, 9. Rick Martel, 10. Hulk Hogan, 11. Jerry Lawler, 12. David von Erich, 13. Andre Variety = 13 opponents = 6 36 Giant Baba Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 3/3 = 5 Intangibles 5 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 69-79 = 10 years = 6 + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 1. Dory Funk Jr., 2. Terry Funk, 3. Jack Brisco, 4. Billy Robinson, 5. Harley Race, 6. Bruno Sammartino, 7. Mil Mascaras / Dos Caras, 8. Fritz von Erich, 9. The Sheik, 10. Stan Hansen, 11. Abdullah the Butcher, 12. The Destroyer, 13. Verne Gagne, 14. Gene Kiniski, 15. Hans Schmidt Variety = 15 opponents = 7 33 The Sheik Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 2/3 (+1 for mastery of foreign object) = 4 Intangibles 6 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 ability to work technical matches + 3 ability to get over in mulitple markets (every territory, Japan, ECW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Mark Lewin, 2. Dory Funk Jr., 3. Terry Funk, 4. Abdullah the Butcher, 5. Sailor Art Thomas / Dick the Bruiser, 6. Jackie Fargo, 7. Giant Baba, 8. Jumbo, 9. Duk / Oki, 10. Robinson / Hoffman, 11. Ricky Steamboat Variety = 11 opponents = 5 22 Billy Robinson Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 3 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 70-80 = 10 years = 6 + 1 ability to work tags + 1 ability to brawl + 2 ability to get over in multiple markets (UK, AWA, Montreal, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Inoki, 2. Baba, 3. Jumbo, 4. Dory Funk Jr, 5. Terry Funk, 6. Nick Bockwinkel, 7. Verne Gagne, 8. Ray Stevens Variety = 8 opponents = 4 35 Lex Luger Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 1/3 = 5 Intangibles 4 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 88-91 = 3 years = 2 + 1 ability to work heel + 1 abiltiy to work gimmick matches + 1 ability to work tags + 1 ability to get over in muliple markets (Florida, JCP / WCW, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Ric Flair, 2. Sting, 3. Arn / Tully, 4. Barry windham, 5. Bret Hart, 6. Ricky Steamboat, 7. Tommy Rich, 8. Great muta, 9. Pillman, 10. The Steiners, 11. Hulk Hogan Variety = 11 opponents = 5 23 Bret Hart Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 3/3 +1 (for execution) = 9 Intangibles 5 Great matches 7 Length of Peak (85-97) = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Calgary, WWF, WCW) +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 5 1. Tiger Mask, 2. British Bulldogs, 3. Demolition, 4. Brainbusters, 5. Ted DiBiase, 6. Mr. Perfect, 7. Roddy Piper, 8. Jerry Lawler, 9. Owen Hart, 10. Shawn Michaels, 11. Steve Austin, 12. Benoit, 13. Islanders, 14. Backlund, 15. Steamboat, 16. 123 Kid, 17. Undertaker, 18. Diesel Variety = 18 opponents = 9 42 Tully Blanchard Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for slingshot suplex) = 8 Intangibles 7 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 85-89 = 4 years = 3 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as company ace +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Southwest, JCP, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Magnum TA, 2. Dusty, 3. Steamboat, 4. Luger / Windham, 5. Hart Foundation, 6. Rockers, 7. Road Warriors, 8. Rock n Roll Express, 9. Garvin, 10. Wahoo Variety = 10 opponents = 5 34 Ron Garvin Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for being a such a stiff bastard) = 7 Intangibles 2 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 82-87 = 5 years = 3 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technical matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (ICW, Canada, JCP, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Lanny Poffo, 2. Savage, 3. Flair, 4. Valentine, 5. Tully, 6. Midnight Express, 7. Rougeaus Variety = 7 opponents = 3 25 Wahoo McDaniel Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 2/3 (+1 for CHOPS) = 6 Intangibles 4 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 74-86 = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Flair, 2. Bockwinkel, 3. Ernie Ladd, 4. Johnny Valentine, 5. Greg Valentine, 6. Magnum TA, 7. Tully Variety = 7 opponents = 3 29 Ricky Steamboat Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for arm drag) = 9 Intangibles 4 Great matches 9 Length of Peak 78-94 = 16 years = 9 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (JCP, Japan, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Flair, 2. Tully, 3. The Sheik, 4. Arn / Larry, 5. Rude, 6. Slaughter / Kernodle, 7. The Funks, 8. Savage, 9. Bret, 10. Austin, 11. Luger, 12. Windham, 13. Vader, 14. Briscos, 15. Orton Jr., 16. Jake, 17. Regal, 18. Jericho, 19. Pillman, 20. Eaton Variety = 20 opponents = 8 44 Barry Windham Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for float-over suplex) = 10 Intangibles 3 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 85-93 = 8 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Florida, JCP, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Flair, 2. Luger, 3. Arn, 4. Tully, 5. Pillman, 6. Sting / Steiners, 7. Murdoch, 8. Midnight Express, 8. Steamboat, 9. 2 Cold Scorpio, 10. Regal Variety = 10 opponents = 5 33 Ivan Koloff Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 4 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 69-85 = 16 years = 9 + 1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Bruno, 2. Dusty, 3. Rock n Rolls, 4. Backlund, 5. Paul Orndorff, 6. Buzz Sawyer, 7. Pedro Variety = 7 opponents = 3 29 Vader Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for stiffness) = 7 Intangibles 6 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 86-00= 14 years = 8 +1 ability to work shoot style +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WCW, Japan, Mexico, WWF, Europe) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Hansen, 2. Inoki, 3. Wanz, 4. Sting, 5. Cactus Jack, 6. Flair, 7. Hashimoto, 8. Hase / Mutoh, 9. Dustin, 10. Owen Hart, 11. Steamboat, 12. Michaels, 13. Chono, 14. Bossman, 15. Kobashi, 16. Taue, 17. Akiyama, 18. Misawa, 19. Tamura Variety = 19 opponents = 10 43 Shawn Michaels Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 6 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 86-97= 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work face +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Rose / Sumers, 2. , Orient Express, 3. Powers of Pain, 4. Brainbusters, 5. Ted DiBiase, 6. Rick Martel, 7. Bret Hart, 8. Razor Ramon, 9. Owen Hart, 10. The Undertaker, 11. Steve Austin, 12. Mankind, 13. Chris Jericho, 14. Kurt Angle, 15. Ric Flair, 16. Randy Orton, 17. John Cena, 18. Diesel, 19. Randy Savage, 20. Bob Backlund Variety = 20 opponents = 10 40 Kurt Angle Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 0/3 = 5 Intangibles 4 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 00-05= 5 years = 3 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, TNA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 1. Shane McMahon, 2. Steven Austin, 3. Chis Jericho, 4. Chris Benoit, 5. Brock Lesnar, 6. Eddie Guerrero, 7. Rey Mysterio, 8. Undertaker, 9. AJ Styles Variety = 9 opponents = 4 22 Eddie Guerrero Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 6 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 94-05 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Black Tiger) +1 ability to work NJ Juniors style +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, Mexico, WCW, WWE, Indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 8 1. Octagon, 2. El Hijo Del Santo, 3. Chris Benoit, 4. Rey Mysterio, 5. Dean Malenko, 6. Chavo Gueurrro Jr, 7. Chris Jericho, 8. DDP, 9. Kurt Angle, 10. John Cena, 11. Brock Lesnar, 11. JBL, 12. Edge, 13. Kidman, 14. Ultimo Dragon, 15. Ohtani Variety = 15 opponents = 7 42 Chris Benoit Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 = 9 Intangibles 0 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 94-07 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Wild Pegusus) +1 ability to work NJ Juniors style +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, WCW, WWE) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. 2 Cold Scorpio, 2. Sabu, 3. Eddie Guerrero, 4. El Samurai, 5. Great Sasuke, 6. Liger, 7. Angle, 8. Bret Hart, 9. Regal, 10. Chris Jericho, 11. HBK / HHH Variety = 11 opponents = 5 35 Dick Murdoch Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 4 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 75-87 = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Japan, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. Pat O'Connor, 2. Jumbo Tsuruta, 3. Jack / Jerry Brisco, 4. Butch Reed, 4. Ted Dibiase, 5. Steve Williams, 6. Barry Windham, 7. Billy Robinson, 8. Harley Race, 9. Inoki Variety = 9 opponents = 4 33 Butch Reed Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 2 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 82-86 = 4 years = 3 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, Mid-South, WCW, Florida) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Dory Funk Jr, 2. Jerry Blackwell, 3. Ivan Koloff, 4. Terry Taylor, 5. Dick Murdoch, 6. Ric Flair, 7. Jake Roberts, 8. Magnum TA, 9. Skip Young, 10. Brickhouse Brown / Master G, 11. Rock n Rolls Variety = 11 opponents = 5 23 Andre Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 3/3 = 4 Intangibles 10 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 74-83 = 9 years = 6 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to adapt himself to work the style of local promotion +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Mexico, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. Killer Khan, 2. Stan Hansen, 3. Hulk Hogan, 4. Harley Race, 5. Randy Savage, 6. Nick Bockwinkel, 7. Inoki, 8. Baron Scicluna / Jerry Valiant, 9. The Sheik Variety = 9 opponents = 4 33 Bob Backlund Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 1/3 1/3 (+1 for atomic piledriver) = 6 Intangibles 1 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 77-84 = 7 years = 5 +1 abiltiy to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work shoot style Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Pat Patterson, 2. Ivan Koloff, 3. Hulk Hogan, 4. Killer Khan, 5. Ken Patera, 6. Stan Hansen Hansen, 7. Larry Zbysko, 8. Great Hussein Arab / Iron Sheik, 9. Greg Valentine, 10. Don Muraco, 11. Adrian Adonis, 12. Bob Orton Jr., 13. Inoki, 14. Bret Hart, 15. Shawn Michaels, 16. Buddy Rose, 17. Jimmy Snuka, 18. Masked Superstar, 19. Dusty Rhodes, 20. Nobuhiko Takada Variety = 20 opponents = 10 34 Hulk Hogan Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 2/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 10 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, WWF, WCW, Japan, used by Vince to go national, biggest wrestling star of all-time) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Bob Backlund, 2. Andre, 3. David Schultz, 4. Nick Bockwinkel, 5. Harley Race, 6. Iron Sheik, 7. Randy Savage, 8. Ted DiBiase, 9. Bossman / Akeem, 10. Ultimate Warrior, 11. Stan Hansen, 12. Paul Orndorff, 13. The Great Muta, 14. Ric Flair, 15. Sgt. Slaughter, 16. Mr. Perfect, 17. Mr. Saito, 18. Lex Luger, 19. Terry Funk, 20. The Rock Variety = 20 opponents = 10 33 Bruno Sammartino Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 10 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, St. Louis, Canada, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles 4 1. Ivan Koloff, 2. Billy Graham, 3. Stan Hansen, 4. Larry Zbysko, 5. Ken Patera, 6. Bruiser Brody, 7. Greg Valentine, 8. Nikolai Volkoff, 9. Spiros Arion, 10. Pat Patterson, 11. Giant Baba, 12. Randy Savage, 13. Ernie Ladd Variety = 13 opponents = 6 25 Randy Savage Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 9 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 85-92 = 7 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (ICW, Memphis, WWF, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. Ron Garvin, 2. Rock n Rolls, 3. Jerry Lawler, 4. Ricky Steamboat, 5. Bruno Sammartino, 6. Tito Santana, 7. Jake Roberts, 8. Ted DiBiase, 9. Hulk Hogan, 10. Bossman / Akeem, 11. Ultimate Warrior, 12. Bret Hart, 13. Ric Flair, 14. DDP, 15. Tenryu, 16. Shawn Michaels, 17. Austin Idol Variety = 17 opponents = 8 42 Steve Austin Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 10 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 92-01 = 9 years = 6 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technical matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (WCW, ECW, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Bret Hart, 2. The Rock, 3. Kurt Angle, 4. Mick Foley, 5. Ricky Steamboat, 6. Sting, 7. Undertaker, 8. Owen Hart, 9. Chris Benoit, 10. Chris Jericho, 11. Ric Flair / Arn Anderson, 12. Triple H Variety = 12 opponents = 6 37 Stan Hansen Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for stiffness) = 8 Intangibles 8 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 79-93 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technically +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, WWF, WCW, AWA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Bruno Sammatino, 2. Bob Backlund, 3. Andre, 4. Giant Baba, 5. Terry Funk / Dory Funk Jr, 6. Carlos Colon, 7. Jumbo, 8. Tenryu, 9. Kawada, 10. Misawa, 11. Taue, 12. Kobashi, 13. Rick Martel, 14. Sgt. Slaughter, 15. Vader, 16. Jerry Blackwell, 17. Nick Bockwinkel, 18. Steve Williams, 19. Akiyama, 20. Curt Hennig Variety = 20 opponents = 10 51 Jumbo Tsuruta Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for hitting ever move like a finisher) = 10 Intangibles 6 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 73-92 = 19 years = 10 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to master multiple styles (AJ 70s style, AJ strong style) +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Dory Funk Jr, 2. Brisco, 3. Terry Funk, 4. Race, 5. Baba, 6. Kimura, 7. Billy Robinson, 8. Bockwinkel, 9. Slater, 10. Flair, 11. Kerry von Erich, 12. Martel, 13. Choshu / Yatsu, 14. Hansen / DiBiase, 15. Hamaguchi, 16. Williams / Gordy, 17. Tenryu, 18. Kawada, 19. Misawa, 20. Kobashi / Kikuchi. Variety = 20 opponents = 10 51 Generico Tenryu Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 7 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 84-02 = 18 years = 10 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to master multiple styles (AJ 70s style, AJ strong style) +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AJPW, NJPW, SWS, FMW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. Ted DiBiase / Stan Hansen, 2. Jumbo, 3. Choshu / Yatsu, 4. Ricky Steamboat, 5. Road Warriors, 6. Tiger Mask II (Misawa), 7. George Takano, 8. Shiro Koshinaka, 9. Ric Flair, 10. Fujinami, 11. Hashimoto, 12. Chono, 13. Naoki Sano, 14. Fujiwara, 15. Onita, 16. Kobashi, 17. Kengo Kimura / Masashi Aoyagi, 18. Yoji Anjoh, 19. Nobuhiko Takada, 20. Tarzan Goto Variety = 20 opponents = 10 51 Yoshiaki Yatsu Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 2 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 84-90 = 6 years = 4 +1 ability to work singles +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work brawls +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, WCCW, AJPW, SWS) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Jumbo, 2. Kawada 3. Hara, 4. DiBiase / Hansen, 5. Furnas / Kroffat, 6. Takada 7. Tatsumi Fujinami 8. Akira Maeda 9. Kengo Kimura, 10. Fujiwara, 11. Mutoh, 12. Inoki, 13. Fuyuki, 14. Tenryu Variety = 14 opponents = 6 33 Nick Bockwinkel Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for "most logical wrestler of all time") = 9 Intangibles 8 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 74-86 = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work brawls +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, AWA, Memphis, Japan, Mid-South, Hawaii) Ability to work different styles / roles = 8 1. Verne Gagne, 2. Billy Robinson, 3. Rick Martel, 4. Hulk Hogan, 5. Jumbo Tsuruta, 6. Jerry Lawler, 7. Curt Hennig, 8. Wahoo McDaniel, 9. Stan Hansen, 10. Larry Zbyszko, 11. Mad Dog Vachon, 12. The Fabulous Ones, 13. Col. De Beers, 14. Andre, 15. Ric Flair, 16. Dory Funk Jr / Terry Funk, 17. Red Bastien, 18. Ernie Ladd, 19. Randy Savage, 20. Jim Brunzell / Greg Gagne Variety = 20 opponents = 10 50 ------- Note: currently 39 workers rated.

This statement is a headscratcher. I honestly think Yatsu is one of the most blow-away great guys in all the 80s AJ footage. And at the time everyone was talking about the AJ 80s set a few years ago, pretty much everyone was saying that. Why don't you think he's impressive?

For me I think he will safely rank in the top 100, but I don't really see him in contention for the top third from what I've seen so far. He will be somewhere in the middle probably in the 40-60 range, where he'll be among some exalted company. I think Hase will finish higher simply because, knowing how my system works, I think they will be really comparible in terms of most of the ratings (for variety, ability to work different roles, etc.) but Hase is a more complete worker insomuch as I see him as a straight 3/3 offense 3/3 selling 3/3 psychology = 9 on the base stats whereas Hash seems more limited to me in what he can do and wouldn't be a 3/3 for selling or psychology based on the footage I've watched so far, but he would get a +1 for "hardest kick ever". So if Hase gets 9/10 in that category, Hase will get 7/10. And if it comes down to a tie, that is the rating that breaks them. I will say that Hash has grown on me though.

Wild Pegasus vs. Great Sasuke (4/16/94) Sasuke is probably the sort of guy who gets really short-changed by GWE, just not very en vogue, let's see how this one holds up. The ring announcer here looks like someone from Takeshi's Castle. You can see why Meltzer would have loved this: all action, all workrate, huge spots. And some of those spots -- missile dropkick to the outside, gutwrench suplex from the top rope -- are still very cool. I struggled to get into this one emotionally and it lacked any sense of real drama for me, but it's still a very good showcase of what these state-of-the-art guys could do. **** Ultimo Dragon vs. Shinjiro Ohtani (8/4/96) Another match from another match J-Crown tournament. To say NJ 90s juniors is not much in my wheelhouse is an understatement, but I'm giving everything a chance and this match has always had a huge rep. This is a really exciting bout and I found myself getting into Ohtani a lot during it. The work on the mat is actually pretty engaging, and the action is really crisp. They build it really nicely towards a hot finishing stretch with several great nearfalls. Ohtani seems so genuinely crestfallen not to win and it's difficult not to feel bad for him. I really loved this match, I forgot it was juniors, it was just a straight up great match. I also dug the drama of going behind stage after it. ****1/2 Jushin Liger vs. El Samurai (4/30/92) NJ was so much more rock n roll than staid old AJ wasn't it. I've always thought that El Samurai's mask looks ridiculous. He looks like a fish or something. Just weird. It's Liger in 92, and this match has been highly pimped forever, so my expectations are sky high for this. I dug El Samurai getting himself over as a massive douchebag heel in the first minute of the match. Immediately helped me know where I was with the dynamics and the beer bottle assault looked sufficiently brutal. Don't really expect that from NJ juniors. And then this match turns into something like the wrestling equivalent of Oldboy as Liger exacts his revenge, ripping off Samurai's stupid shitty little fish mask in the process. I was pretty into this, the hatred was real. If I have an issue with it its that the retribution went on a little long. Samurai's time on top is seven minutes max, and then Liger gets literally about 18 minutes of kicking the living shit out of him. Seems excessive to me and I'm not sure about that as a narrative, makes the babyface seem like a bully a la Shawn Michaels in the Rose / Somers cage match. Still this is a captivating match by any standard. ****1/2 Jushin Liger vs. Naomi Sano (1/31/90) Another Liger match. This was one of the few matches I saw when I was keeping pace with the Yearbook crowd. Has lost none of its impact. Just a hot match, fiercely worked with great bombs. Mask ripping and hatred and so on. I liked this about as much as I did the first time. Another good showing for Liger. ****1/2 Wild Pegasus vs. El Samurai (5/15/93) Benoit vs. El Fishy Mask now. To add insult to injury, tonight he's wearing a pair of tights befitting of Arachnaman. This match is mechanically very good, but for some reason feels like it is worked in a vacuum. The commentators just don't seem into it and it makes it feel like this could just be any match even though these two are busting their asses doing super-back suplexes and such like for almost the entire running time. The powerbomb from the top rope is a sick spot and still is a wow moment. But this is your stereotypical all-workrate, no atmosphere NJ juniors match. Has the feel of a lost gem buried away on an old episode of Saturday night or something like that. But hurt by muted / vacuum-y feel for me. Rating is for cold mechanics alone. Not a bad showing for El Samurai tonight. ***3/4 Great Sasuke and Black Tiger vs. Wild Pegasus and Shinjiro Ohtani (10/18/94) Black Tiger is Eddie, of course. There are three all-timers in this match, and Great Sasuke, who is good on a good day. So this is promising. Eddie's suplexes in this match are a thing of beauty. Actually, basically everything he does looks tremendous. His offense, his bumping, his selling, his heeling, his character work. Just such a good performance from him and a reminder that he's one of the most naturally gifted wrestlers of all time. I mean he just had everything. Most definitive MVP of a match I've ever seen, and that's saying something because I thought both Benoit and Ohtani brought it in this match too. Someone might tell me that I'm going over the top. But I think Eddie in this match turns in one of the all-time best performances, literally everything he does is perfect, and it is a rare thing to see. Ohtani is a very engaging babyface and I enjoyed him struggling back after the FIP sequence. Benoit was Benoit which means mechanically exceptional but somehow "in a vacuum" -- Benoit to me is the ultimate vacuum worker. Sasake plays his part too, taking a huge dive from the top to the outside at one point and taking his fair share of big bumps. But this match is all about Eddie and his greatness. It's a masterclass performance that has to be one of the highlights of his career. Terrible botch on the finish from Othani and Benoit stops this being an all-time classic in my book, the excessiveness of the style getting them a bit carried away there, but this is still a damn fine match with three very good performances and one all-time great one. ****1/2

I'm convinced the only real way for someone to get hooked is by catching a bit of weekly TV and getting invested in what is going on to the point that they want to watch the blow off, or at least what happens next. The closest thing to that would be showing them a PPV. Maybe an early Royal Rumble or Survivor Series that gives them enough of a glimpse of the array of different characters that they think "oh who's that guy? I want to see him again!". I always thought the thirty-minute countdown on the Wrestlemania 9 CHV did a good job of engaging someone who'd know nothing about what is going on. Those Mooney-hosted countdown packages were great and then he left and Pettigall ruined them. I'm not sure that showing a newb great angles or matches in themselves will hook them in.

The glassy-eyed look is an asset to his selling as a babyface, I'd probably agree, but I thought it was odd that his facial expressions and general expressiveness were singled out (by Dylan I think) as particular strengths of his (I think this was in the DiBiase thread and comparison). Do you agree with him that Windham excels at facial expressions and general expressiveness? I don't see that much at all. He always seemed to have that blank glassy stare to me.

Well it's true. People see different things in the same material, so there's no point getting frustrated about it.

In terms of loud booing, Rude always seemed to get a good response. Superbrawl II being the most extreme example. I'd call it legit heat even if it's possible no one actually HATED him.

This whole thread has done a good job of explaining why I am "old-school for life". I hate post-modern wrestling. I still wonder why, however, wrestlers can't just go out there and cut SIMPLE heel promos. Look at Rick Rude. His heat was 90%+ from the same promo, just calling guys in the crowd fat and slobby. Why can't someone get on the mic and call out spotty internet nerds? Why can't they mock the black hoodies they all wear? It's just simple heat: mock the guys in the crowd and ensure there's a grain of truth in there so it actually hurts. "All you losers on the internet wouldn't know five-star match if it slapped you in the face!" Has anyone even tried? I don't see stuff like this if I ever catch modern WWE, I see boring played out angles and storylines fans don't care about. Don't make heels villains in storylines, make them just hatable jerks first. So many of the skits of old weren't heels being criminal masterminds, it was just heels telling the fans they were stupid, lazy, poor, etc. etc. Insult them, they won't cheer being insulted.

Jimmy, you aren't alone in that (as I've said on WTBBP lots of times) I've never quite got the hype around Barry. I mean he's got exceptionally smooth mechanics and the sweetest of all float-over suplexes, but the stuff Dylan is saying about emoting and character work -- whether he's a face or heel -- I just don't see at all. This is reflected in my rating of 3 for intangibles. Windham often looks glassy-eyed to me. I don't think his character work is strong. I don't think he has much star quality either, which is one reason -- and I hate to say this -- he never got over in the WWF to the level that guys like Ted and Rude did. We are on a board where people can compare Jumbo Tsuruta to Terry Taylor with a straight face, so I wouldn't lose much sleep over it.

Thanks for taking the time to do this. I also love Flair's imperious indifference during the Murdoch stuff. He's so awesome as the champ coming in from elsewhere. I'm planning on watching some of the NWA Classics stuff shoe references soon, as well as rounding off 86-7 Mid-South, so look out for that.