JerryvonKramer

If he makes my list, probably Jay Youngblood. Doubtful though. I don't think pro wrestling has ever been a rookie's game. Seems to me that all the seasoned pros don't hit their true peaks until their 30s. There are excpetions but mostly everyone I can think of worth their salt had at least 10 years on the clock.

Also, if anybody has even seen the Thick of It there are blow away "promos" in every show Malcolm Tucker gives someone a huge bollocking. Thinking about it, The Thick of It might be my fave show ever. Certainly has the best put down lines in the history of television as well as the best swearing.

The film Glengarry Glen Ross, one of my all time faves, is basically just one stream of guys cutting absolutely money promos on each other. This one from Big Al probably the highlight:

I'll keep Thundercloud if he's "only" 49. Put Monsoon and Graham's commentary down to a gaffe. It's not like them getting stuff wrong on commentary was unusual.

Keep on thinking people are saying "Tatanka" in this thread where it's Takada.

Yeah, it would just be a place to keep them warmed up. I've put NWF there as a facility for anyone to stick a guy who has nothing to do or needs an extra date to stay in shape or whatever, rather than sit at home. I don't know what the Alabama promotion is, but I guess NWF could be there for the North and Canada and Alabama for Southern Guys. If you want to send someone from your own company to work NWF dates on Fridays, just put it in the thread and I'll make sure they get a match.

Could guys who are completely undrafted and unwanted work in my new NWF Developmental: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31564-nwf-developmental/ This is just to keep them active at least once a week and stop them falling off a cliff. We should think about what happens to those who fall between the cracks. NWF Developmental is "outside" of my WWF Universe, it's just a thing to keep guys busy.

Well I've brought in the Superstars and Challenge brands way early. So there's a slight precedent.

This might be insane, but WWE now is more obsessed with history and records in its kayfabe than at any time I can recall. Cena is on 15 titles. Obviously, Flair is on 16. I think it's the sort of weird thing they really care about now. Flair's retirement deal has been made a big thing in WWE lore. Flair as a legend in general has become part of its canon version of history, ratified forever with the "I Love You" from WWE Canon History Golden Boy HBK. Cena equalling Flair's record can't be a small thing. If, that is, they ever let it happen. Cena is currently: 15 x World Champ 4 x US Champ 4 x Tag Champ 23 major titles WWE recognises. In WWE-land, Flair is renognised as having 27: 16 x World Champ 5 x US Champ 5 x Tag Champ 1 x IC Champ Note that Cena is 1 title away from equalling Flair each for World, US, Tag. And, surprisingly, he's never held the IC. I think that someone in the WWE higher ups has worked out how long Cena has left probably and how long they can slow burn his march towards breaking Flair's over-all title record while equalling him in the secondary titles. Cena is 38 right now and doesn't look old. So the time to pull the trigger on the 16th title wouldn't be until after he was 40. And then the long-dream chasing the 17th title which he can do towards his eventual retirement. I wouldn't be surprised to see 5th US and Tag title runs and an IC run en route to that either over the next few years. The thought crossed my mind before when I saw that Cena was US champ, but now I've become convinced that this -- bizarre as it may seem -- is the real reason he's carrying that belt. This is so that kids can look in the history books and see that Cena held almost exactly the same amount of belts as Flair, only one more world title. So he HAS to be the "man" for all time. Or something like that.

Heidenreich?

Loads of wrestlers in history. Loads. In fact, Roman's "fall" is nothing compared to some examples I'm sure anyone here could reel off.

I believe DiBiase used a figure-four as a young face and the transitioned over to using the fist drop in mid south (loaded glove).

Thanks Mad Dog, always pleased to have new listeners. I think one of the great things about podcasts (as opposed to traditional radio) is that the archive stays there. So it's never "too late" to start as it were. Can't believe we've finally made it to 1982.

People not voting Arn should out themselves. He seemed like a universal pick from what I've seen. I can't think of anyone who doesn't like him.

I actually have 5 dates on Ted, not four as you noted. But if he could drop in once or twice on the TV during the run, sure, have another date on Andre. Remember that if the kid didn't use the July dates, you get them back too.

No I pass. I thought the 63 year old thundercloud was the one who had the son. They aren't the same guy? Amazing carny world. I spent at least thirty mins reading around, never occurred to me there were two of them.

Flucking hell, he's not even the "real" one? Lol

The WWF have released Chief Thundercloud with immediate effect. He should be entered into the August draft. PS. If he goes underdrafted, I think he should probably retire. At the age of 63 he really has no place in the ring any more.

WWF at Agricultural Hall in Allentown, PA (TV Taping for WWF Challenge) Jul 27th, 1983 The hosts are Gorilla Monsoon and, making his Challenge debut, Superstar Billy Graham. Gorilla is on crutches and has his leg in a cast. Monsoon: Welcome fans to another edition of WWF Challenge. I’m joined here by one of the greats in this sport, former WWF Champion, Superstar Billy Graham who will be my new co-host here. Graham: Honour to be joining you here Gorilla, brother. I’m glad to be replacing that stuck up guy you had before. But let me tell you Gorilla, brother. I saw what Bobby Heenan and Nick Bockwinkel did to you in New Jersey, brother. And they got what is coming to them sooner or later. I hope your leg recovers soon from that really heinous attack. Monsoon: Well thank you Superstar. The doctors have given it a month to heal, but I’ll struggle through. And their bully tactics didn’t work because I still got a call through to WWF President Shinma. They might have won the battle, but I hope I’ve won the war for the WWF. … On another subject, Superstar, what about your talk show, Superstar’s Supershow on Superstars? Graham: Well Monsoon, when I was asked to do this, I had a choice, and, brother, I wanted to be right here on WWF Challenge with you as the best co-host you could have! Monsoon: Well alright! And looking forward to it, I am. And now let’s go to our ring announcer for the first match. Joe McHugh: Promoted by Phil Zacko. Supervised by the State Athletic Commission, the honourable JJ Benz Chairman. And Francis Walker is the Executive Secretary. And the officials assigned: Deputy Commission Peter Lash. The doctor in attendance at ringside, Dr George Zahorian. The timekeeper at the bell: Mike Griffin. The referees for this hour of wrestling: Billy Capouto, Alberto Roman, Dick Woehrle. And my name is …. Jooeeeeeeeeee McHugh! Dr. Death Steve Williams vs. Dean Ho Match: Steve Williams after a scoop powerslam in 2:34. Williams totally destroyed Ho in a very short amount of time. Quotation(s) from announcers: (Gorilla) “We’ve seen Williams in action in a lot of tagteam matches but, boy, he showed us something here tonight.” (Graham) “Poor Dean Ho didn’t stand a chance.” Fred Curry vs. El Grim Apollo [Jose Luis Rivera under a hood] Match: Curry wins with a rolling cradle in 6:00. During the match “El Grim Apollo” aped a lot of El Gran Apollo’s standard spots, but slightly mistimed or miscued. Curry worked a lot of drop kicks. Quotation(s) from announcers: (Gorilla) “Well this … newcomer to the WWF is calling himself El GRIM Apollo” (Graham) “What happened to El Gran Apollo?” (Gorilla) “The going was too tough for him here, the competition was too stiff, he couldn’t handle the pace and standard of competition and hightailed it back to wherever he came from.” (Graham) “Indeed, Gorilla brother, the WWF has only the highest calibre athletes anywhere in the sport, if you aren’t at the top of your game, you will never make it up through the ranks of this company” (Gorilla) “Well El Gran is outta here, sometimes a guy is just a flash in the pan. It takes a lot to make it in the big leagues.” Video package recap of events at Meadowlands focusing on Nick Bockwinkel and Bobby Heenan’s farcical match up and their devastating attack on Gorilla Monsoon which followed. Runs about 15:00. Bobby Eaton vs. Jerry Monti Match: Eaton pins Monti after 3:40 after a tilt-a-whirl backbreaker. Your basic squash. Quotation(s) from announcers: (Gorilla): “This young man Bobby Eaton has so many offensive weapons. As good as Steve Williams looked earlier, here is tag-team partner is looking just as deadly!” Man Mountain Link vs. Tony Russo Match: Link throws Russo out of the ring after 2:50 to pick up a countout victory. Just another squash. Quotation(s) from announcers: (Gorilla) “For as big as Man Mountain Link is, you’d think he’d be able to do this to guys who are more seasoned than Tony Russo, but he hasn’t had the best streak of luck lately.” The Animals (George Steele and Crazy Luke Graham) vs. “The Duke of Dorchester” Pete Doherty and Randy Barber Match: The Animals won in 1:34 after George Steele fell on top of Barber for a three count. Another squash. Quotation(s) from announcers: (Graham): “Well of course, Luke Graham is my brother, Gorilla. I mean my actual brother. I got a lot of brothers you know, brother.” (Gorilla) “Well, Superstar, your brother sure made short work of this one.” (Graham): “He was WWF Tag-team champion once you know” (Gorilla) “Yes, I remember. Actually a couple of times, once with Tarzan Tyler and the other time with that other brother of your Dr. Jerry Graham” (Graham): “These Andersons can talk a lot about who is the best family in wrestling, you won’t find more gold in the cabinet than in the Graham family, brother.” Mr. Fuji vs. Chief Thundercloud Match: Mr. Fuji wins after a legdrop from the top rope in 10:09. During the match Fuji dominated for the main, even though Thundercloud tried to make a comeback with the war dance, he was cut off and destroyed. Quotation(s) from announcers: (Gorilla): “Well Indians sure aren’t like they used to be round these parts. The Devious One here with an impressive victory.” (Graham): “Hey, Gorilla, this Thundercloud guy is pretty old looking isn’t he?” (Gorilla): “Well Superstar, he’s been in the wrestling game a very long time, he started his career in 1940s.” (Graham): “Well, uh, maybe it’s time for the Chief to step aside and let the Braves and the Squawks fight, y’know brother?” WWF at Agricultural Hall in Fieldhouse in Hamburg, PA (TV Taping for WWF Superstars) Jul 27th, 1983 The host is Vince McMahon. Bret Hart vs. Baron Mikel Scicluna Match: Bret Hart wins the sharpshooter at 5:00. During the match he mainly worked the mat with the aging Scicluna, who more than likely couldn’t take the bumps required for any of his higher end offense. Quotation(s) from announcer: “Bret Hart continues to impress us here on WWF Superstars. Some people call him ‘The Hitman’ and you can see why!” Video package recap of events at Meadowlands focusing on Nick Bockwinkel and Bobby Heenan’s farcical match up and their devastating attack on Gorilla Monsoon which followed. Runs about 15:00. Tommy Rogers vs. The Goon Match: Rogers pins the The Goon in 3:30 after a missile dropkick. Quotation(s) from announcer: “Tommy Rogers! Making very short work of The Goon.” Howard Finkel has a special announcement. Finkel: Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce you to a very special guest here on WWF Superstars today, He is the President of the World Wrestling Federation, Mr. Shinma! A Japanese man in a suit, Mr. Shinma, walks out. Crowd is obviously dead. He hands a written note to Finkel. Finkel: Mr. Shinma would like me to read out this official statement on behalf of himself and the WWF Board of Directors. … “WWF Champion Nick Bockwinkel must now defend the title against challengers whom the OFFICIAL WWF BOARD OF DIRECTORS decides is worthy of a competing for the belt. After his conduct over the past three weeks, Bobby Heenan has been STRIPPED of his ability to decide who challenges for the belt. The contracts he acquired from The Grand Wizard of Wrestling, Fred Blassie and Lou Albano are hereby NULL AND VOID.” The crowd cheers, and as the do so Heenan and Bockwinkel come storming out of the back. Heenan has that look of despair and anger on his face. Bockwinkel is shaking his head. Finkel: “Furthermore …” Heenan and Bockwinkel get up onto the apron. Finkel: “FURTHERMORE … for bringing their conduct since Mr. Bockwinkel won the title, which includes ambushing an innocent civilian in Philadelphia, the broadcaster Kal Rudman, and injuring WWF announcer Gorilla Monsoon, as well as attacking various other people, AND making a mockery of the WWF title at the Meadowlands last week …. Mr. Bockwinkel and Mr. Heenan are charged with bringing the WWF title INTO DISREPUTE. Therefore, they will be fined a total of $10,000 each for damages. And furthermore, failure to comply will requests for title challenges will lead Mr. Bockwinkel to being STRIPPED of the WWF Heavyweight Championship and Mr. Heenan to being STRIPPED of his managerial license. The WWF President has spoken.” The crowd cheers as Heenan stomps up and down almost crying, and Bockwinkel is open-mouthed at the pronouncement. They dare not lay a hand on Mr. Shinma. Heenan buries his head in his hands. And we go to a commercial break as they are looking dejected. Blackjack Lanza vs. Jack Carson Match: Lanza pins Carson after a lariat in 6:40. He had Carson beat earlier, but pulled him up from the three counter several times. During the match, Lanza’s manager, Bobby Heenan, paced up and down at ringside, clearly distracted by the recent announcement. Quotation(s) from announcer: “Well, there we have it! They say cheats never prosper and Bobby Heenan and Nick Bockwinkel are about to get what is coming to them. We’ve watched them for a whole month dodge challenges and short-cut their way to title defences. Well Mr. Shinma has spoken, and if you ask me, ladies and gentlemen, it was overdue. Maybe now Bob Backlund will get the justice he deserves.” After the match Lanza and Heenan go over to talk to Vince at ringside. Lanza: Jack Carson is nothing but a punk kid. Give me some real competition. Vince: Well speaking of REAL competition, Bobby Heenan, that’s exactly what Nick Bockwinkel has got isn’t it? Heenan (completely irate, losing his voice with anger): It’s a conspiracy and a setup job is what it is McMahon. It’s completely unfair. How can this … I’m going to call me lawyer. I’m going to call my attorney. I’m going to go over the blue print in the contract. I’m going to consult every legal expert in this country. 10,000 dollars oh God…! (mutters to himself) Vince: How about the idea of Nick Bockwinkel defending his belt like a fighting champion should? At that Bockwinkel himself saunters to ringside. He’s still smug as ever, but looking a little ruffled. Bockwinkel: This is asasine. This is …. Infantile puerilism of the lowest order. And Mr. Heenan put it very well, it is a CONSPIRACY. But let me tell you, I know what it is like to hold a world title. I am a born champion and even if the authorities in their infinite stupidity wish to stack the odds against me, I will always have a plan and always have a way of coming out with the title intact. Let me educate you little man. Have you heard of the Champion’s Prerogative? The Champion’s Advantage? They have to beat me, I don’t have to beat them. Vince: Well have you seen the list of challengers who have built up over the time that you have refused to face any of them? Heenan: Let me see that list! Let me see it! Dammit! Vince (calmly): Well keep your hair on Bobby Heenan, I’ll read it to you … one, Pedro Morales! (crowd cheers). One, Antonio Inoki, the man who wrestled Mohammed Ali! (more muted cheers). The Junkyard Dog all the way from New Orleans. The American Dream, DUSTY RHODES (loud pop). And …. BOB BACKLUND. Bockwinkel: I know a certain thing or two about the legality of title defences. I will take on Morales, Inoki, this … “Junk Yard Dog” character. I will even take on Dusty Rhodes. But Bob Backlund needs to earn the right. He is down the bottom of that ladder and he needs to climb his way back up to the top. I’m at the summit of the mountain and he’s down in the mud wallowing about like a pig in muck. He needs to earn the right. Vince: How can you say that when Backlund has been champion for the past six years? And did you not hear what Mr. Shinma said? Bockwinkel: Mr. Shinma was very clear. He said that I must comply with requests for the title. He did not say EVERY request. I have said: Morales, Inoki, Junk Yard Dog, Rhodes. These men I have agreed to face and if they can defeat me they will hold this belt. But you understand, I say no to Bob Backlund. He does not have the right to step into the ring with a man of my greatness. He needs to prove himself. Vince: And how can he do that? How can he ever get you to accept his challenge. Bockwinkel: You’re a man of little faith McMcMahon. Why don’t you come back here next week, and maybe Mr. Heenan will have the answer for you. Andre the Giant vs. Arn Anderson Match: Andre the Giant wins by DQ after 13:22 when Gene, Ole and Lars Anderson all piled into the ring and tried to set him up to be “hung, drawn and quartered”. The Giant was too big, however, and fend all four men off much to the crowd’s delight. Announcer: “This man from Grenoble, France is AWESOME. All four Andersons in there and still they can’t get the better of the big man. A wonderful main event here on WWF Superstars!”

Arn Anderson

Got a bunch of guys who are doing nothing on your cards? Got a youngster who just needs some more time in the ring? Want to keep that veteran from getting ring rust? Vince McMahon Sr is proud to announce the opening of NWF Developmental. This will be a sub-promotion that runs a single card a week in Buffallo, NY on Friday nights. It will be run by two legendary wrestlers very well known to the area, Johnny Powers and Dominic Denucci. The purpose of the sub-promotion is to ensure guys have in-ring time to hone their skills or stay in shape. This sub-promotion is also an ideal place to send guys who might be coming back from injury. A place to work in front of decent live crowds once a week. Guys would be free on the other six days of the week to work wherever they need to. There will be an "NWF Heavyweight Champion" who can defend (but not lose) the belt on the road if required. This title has some prestige having been held by Powers, Denucci, Ernie Ladd, Johnny Valentine, Abdullah the Butcher, Antonio Inoki, and Stan Hansen, among others. It would not be recognised as a world title, but could be worn with pride by a youngster or even an older guy whose career is flagging. If you have anyone who you feel is just hanging around who might take the trip once a week, stick them here. The run can be as long or short as required. There will be no storylines as such, beyond rudimentary angles to provoke matches. The first revived NWF Champion will be Johnny Powers. The first show will take place the Friday after there is enough talent to form a card of at least five matches.

As in-ring workers, Cena blows Rock away. As promo, charisma, X-factor etc., Rock blows Cena away. Since Cena is no where near a top 5 worker of all time, and Rock is clearly a top 5 talker of all time, on balance I go with Rock. If it's purely on in-ring, Cena has definite edge.

My guy can be used as required. No jobs for Andre. Johnny Powers to be presented as a legend of New Japan known for his many match ups with Inoki over the years, but can still job.

Andre and Bob Backlund will be at this show. World peace and cooperation deal smacks of Johnny Powers too, so he might come if he's not deemed too old.

At least a safety net or grace period. If I know I've got Piper coming in for 7 dates over the next month and the guy drops just as its about to happen, I don't want to rebook the entire month I had planned. If I just have 7 dates on him "somewhere down the line" it's a different prospect, and could see in that case renegotiating. Bock is such a case where the next month is key. I have things built to a point with him right in the middle of a storyline that will take a month minimum to blow off. It just so happened that the kid also dropped like the exact moment before Ted and Murdoch were due in. Coincidence I guess, but I hope you see the point. We also have a case where Japan dates are binding no matter what. Did Baba have to double check with Bill Watts's booker that it was still cool for DiBiase to work the tour? No, it's set in concrete because Bill Watts said it was cool and Ted had an agreement. Why's New York different? I'm not strong arming on this, I'm just saying something like a dude coming in to work MSG would be highly unlikely to be affected by bookers changing. Dusty is going to stay committed to the New York date no matter what. My compromise would be a one month grace rule where anything beyond that needs to be renegotiated. It's slightly unrealistic because we know guys like Vince Sr booked like a year in advance, but it's a compromise to accept that this is a game thing and not actually 1983.