JerryvonKramer

I'll take Honkytonk Man. !!!!

Have you ever hear anyone else tell the story about Brody holding up the world title vs. Flair in St Louis? Circa 84-5.

Ha has a decent match with Harley Race in 1980

Incidentally, for the purposes of this game, Brody is blacklisted from WWF:D

I was going on stuff I'd heard in the long Buck Robley shoots with Gary Cubetta. I take everything Robley said with a pinch of salt though.

Was he ever blacklisted from anywhere Kris?

Brody was blacklisted from a lot of places right?

I'm not saying everyone should do star ratings, but the words "great" and "awesome" cover a huge range in my experience. And sometimes you find you're arguing about something when you're within a quarter of a star of each other.

If I were to push you for a star rating, where would you go?

I don't think I'll be ranking Dusty. Promo work doesn't count for this (or surely Flair automatically becomes #1 and undisputed as total package), but I don't enjoy a lot of Dusty's character work. I always think he seems outrageously gay and has very little beyond the standard spots in his schtick. Of all the Flair opponents, he's the only one who has ** and *** matches with him, which should be illustrative. I haven't seen a great deal from him when he's cropped up vs. NWA champions in the 70s or when he's made trips to New York that we've seen on Titans. I think he's just too limited to make the 100 and doesn't make much effort to work around those limitations like Andre or Baba, but rather just leans more and more on the schtick. I can see a lot of people including him but I won't be one of them. I don't see the work there.

The gimmick is fine and some of the visuals of him bleeding with the mask ripped are cool. But the symbolism stuff is hokey as hell. I would expect to see people shit on the flaming chair or the lying of the sheet over the body before a cover if it happened in a WWE ring. I thought all that stuff was lame and sub-Undertaker level. I just wonder if this stuff is held to the same standard as other stuff and there's some element of it being pimped preceisely because it is under the radar. Or something like that. I don't know, a lot of the same people dig and defend John Cena too, which is hardly a "trendy" opinion, so chalk it up to different strokes. But I'm genuinely surprised to see that match touted as some great match of the past half-decade.

In the Breaks matches he showed a lot of fire, but if he doesn't do that against other opponents and relies on more of his cheeky-lad schtick, I could see how that wouldn't be that good. Are there any other really good heels in WoS beyond Breaks and the smattering of Mick McManus?

A lot of what I don't like about him is encapsulated in this image.

The thing is though, even on here where a lot of people aren't high on HBK, I still see the Taker matches (for example) getting love. Seems to me that if you have time for the modern WWE Main event style, then Michaels is the ultimate worker in that style. I really don't like any of the big post-comeback matches. I hate the "I Love You" (and I'm a huge Flair fan), I don't like the Taker matches, I don't like Summerslam 02 vs. HHH, no real time for the Jericho matches. Kurt Angle stuff I need to rewatch but recall liking a match of theirs at the time. I like the IC title era and matches vs. Razor in 94. I flat out hate him in 1996. I chalk a lot of it up for me just really despising the sort of self-conscious, pose-y, "for the cameras" wrestler he is and put a lot of it down to personal foibles, so it's interesting that so many are low on him as well. I expected this poll to be a lot closer.

Can anyone explain to me why they love that El Mesias match? Do people really love El Mesias's egregious any-indie-worker-you've-ever-seen spottiness? I mean WTF? I honestly thought the match was horrible. My disconnect on these LA Park matches has been bothering me a bit. No one has explained what they like about that match beyond saying "oh it's awesome". I review a lot of matches. Some things like Dandy vs. Angel Azteca I can chalk up to either not getting the style, or flat out not liking the style. But that El Mesias one is really not a match I'd expect a guys like Matt D or OJ to be pimping. It seems amazing that I'm getting shit for giving a couple of Steiners tags ****1/2 and in the same thread this match is being talked up.

Thanks Tim. What do you make of this guy's top 10? Here: 1. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Hiroshi Hase; NJPW 12/13/94: **** ¾ 2. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Nobuhiko Takada; NJPW 04/29/96: **** ½ 3. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Toshiaki Kawada; AJPW 02/22/04: **** ½ 4. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Riki Choshu; NJPW 08/02/96: **** ¼ 5. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Genichiro Tenryu; NJPW 08/01/98: **** ¼ 6. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Satoshi Kojima; NJPW 08/02/98: **** ¼ 7. Shinya Hashimoto & Riki Choshu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Takashi Ishikawa; WAR 04/02/93: **** ¼ 8. Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs. Masahiro Chono & Hiroyoshi Tenzan; NJPW 6/12/95: **** ¼ 9. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Masato Tanaka; Zero1 03/02/02: **** ¼ 10. Shinya Hashimoto vs. Genichiro Tenryu; NJPW 08/08/93: **** ¼

I think we should get this show on the road before interest dwindles.

Same. Seems there are a lot of rubes on PWO, eh. HBK's rep as a GOAT contender in the WWE universe and online is one of the great mysteries of the world.

One little thing I've noticed is that Flair seems acutely aware that some of the younger fans will remember him for the late WWE run. But that's also the run that he seems "closest" to. When he talks about Shawn carrying him and being genuinely grateful for it, I think he's being very sincere. He also runs himself down a bit more than you might expect. Humble isn't necessarily a word I'd associate with Ric Flair, but he doesn't really brag on these shows. Makes me wonder if the awful appearance of him on Legends of Wrestling were either a. him being drunk (since you can be sure him and Okerlund went out after those shows, probably Hayes too) or b. him working some sort of schtick / kayfabe deal. He doesn't seem the same here at all. Maybe he's just at a different point in his life. I do agree with Loss that it is painfully obvious that him and Bret were not aware of some of the matches the other were discussing. I kind of expect that though. The guys in the business who are the biggest wrestling nerds are guys who were not top workers -- Cornette, JJ Dillon, Jim Ross. Flair was on the road 300+ nights of the year and when he wasn't wrestling he was drinking or shagging. He doesn't strike me as the type of guy who is going to sit down and watch DVDs.

I need a listing of top Hash matches. My ratio of All Japan to New Japan watching is currently about 99 to 1.

Any Harley matches in particular? I agree it's not commonly mentioned. I've been plodding through Harley's career on tape in the microscope. I think he's a very easy to watch guy because he worked such an action heavy style. I think he's been a bit unfairly maligned as "the Kurt Angle" of the 70s / early 80s. Near complete wrestler insomuch as he was superb bumping and selling and superb on offense, both things that people can take too easily for granted. If "psychology" means working a body part, it's true that most of the time it's not there. But Harley has other skills, such as making it seem like any opponent no matter how scrub-like has a chance, making babyfaces look like world beaters and still somehow coming out looking like a tough guy. If I have a problem with him it's not that he had no psychology, it's that he worked far too weak, which if nothing else is a real waste of all those big bombs in his arsenal. I hate the bouts vs. Steamboat and Backlund for this reason. Much better when he's allowed proper periods on offense like vs. Martel in 85 and vs. Hogan in 87. Also has great clips vs. Terry Funk and DiBiase, both of whom he had great chemistry with. Overall, to the middle of 81, I think Harley will get a decent placement in my final rankings with top 50 not out of the question. A few months back I was thinking more top 80, but he's grown on me.

Interested to see you have Saint in the overrated category. I thought he was really good in the two Breaks matches. Can you say any more on this?

Sgt. slaughter should probably be in the mix,

Harley Race vs. Mil Mascaras (9/12/80) PWI dream match, NWA Champion against Mascars in Japan? Forget about it, Bill Apter just came. Mil is in an elaborate leopard-skin mask and cape. This is All Japan Odds of Harley doing 99% of the selling: 99%. Odds of Mil eating a pin: 0%. Some surprising things about this match: - Harley hits at least 10 moves of offense, incuding three vertical suplexes (one outside ring), a piledriver and a back suplex and Mil actually sold them - Mascaras does a crossbody from the top to the outside - Things break out into a brawl, including Mascaras burying a chair on Harley's head - Harley juices - A table finds its way to the ring and is propped up on the ropes - It doesn't suck Less surprising: Double CO finish. About as good as any Mascaras match I've ever seen. He worked hard and for once didn't bore me to tears. ***1/2 Harley Race vs. Bob Backlund (9/22/80) 8mm silent footage of this fucking travesty of a match, reviewed here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/19300-bob-backlund/?p=5579632 Harley Race & Larry Hennig vs. The Sheik & Mark Lewin. (12/11/80) Rare opportunity to see a legendary tagteam here, Hennig and Race were a big deal in the 60s and I believe no footage of their run exists at all. Here they are reunited for the RWTL. Sheik and Lewin have colour seemingly within seconds. I don't know if they even came to the ring already bleeding. Sheik beats on Race basically openly with his pencil. The bell goes before long in what is an abortion of a match. I don't even know what the call was, DQ win for Race / Hennig I think. *1/2 Harley Race & Ole Anderson vs. Dusty Rhodes & Tony Atlas (1/16/81) JIP. Seems like GCW with Solie on commentary. Race gets pinned by Atlas. Just a little clip, but we do get a promo from Race, and he wants Atlas in the ring. Later in the same ep Race does a run-in on Idol vs. Mr Wrestling II with Atlas making the save. Formulaic Ole booking. Another Harley promo now. Clip to Idol vs. Rich this time. Race walks out again. This looks like a dress rehearsal for his WCW days. Same Gene-Hackman-in-Superman suit. He accidentally hits Idol allowing Rich the pin to win the TV title. Post-match we get a heel beatdown, figure-four by Idol as Race lays in knee drops. Tony Atlas once again comes in to make the save, but Race wards him off as well as other babyfaces. Rich's knee looks badly injured. Another interview with Race now, Solie with the mic. Race claims he did everyone a favour putting Rich out. A second interview now. Solie says he respects the World title but is disappointed in Race. Harley says he doesn't care as long as he gets done what needs to be done. Rich needed a lesson. Harley Race vs. Tommy Rich (4/27/81) Clip of this Omni match now with Rich commentating on it with Solie. Historic moments as Rich wins the world title with a Thesz press. Match before it looked good with Race giving Rich some of his typical highspots (piledriver, neckbreaker, suplex etc.) before the counter and pinfall. Nice little angle all that. It was weird on the Rich commentary that he'd already lost the title even as he was celebrating it. Harley Race & The French Angel vs. Ted DiBiase & Tommy Rich (5/81) Well here's a Ted match I've never seen or heard of. This ring looks exceptionally small. I don't believe that this is THE French Angel (Maurice Tillet) but he is an ugly bald dude. DiBiase and Rich are a bit of a babyface dreamteam for 1981. Race bumps around for both faces before nailing Rich with a gutwrench suplex. Snapmare. Kneedrop. Actually, I think that is the "real" French Angel, he's certainly weird-looking enough. (confirmation from any of the historians would be good) DiBiase in and he works with the same intensity as he did in 1979 WWF, but loses advantage and the heels take over. Race back in. Running knee. Awesome butterfly suplex by Race. Big backdrop by DiBiase and thee high elbow drops. And another one. Reverses a suplex that Race tries. All four men in. Thesz press by Rich on Race, and he pins the champion. This was a very fun little sprint. Race looked awesome here with good workers like Rich and DiBiase selling his high-end offense. *** Harley Race vs. Tony Atlas (2/8/81) Random little clip back to this match from earlier in the year. Atlas commentating with Solie over Omni footage. This was a street fight. Can't really see a lot. Harley Race vs. Spike Huber (5/20/81) I think this is St. Louis because Larry Matysik is on commentary. He mentions that Race invoked his automatic rematch clause with Rich which is why he won the title back 3 days later. But apparently Sam Muchnick has point blank refused to let this clause stand when Race faces Missouri State Champion Ted DiBiase for the title in a few weeks. I love this Jack Tunney shit. Muchnick thinks that the 3-4-day clause is ridiculous and that a new champion should have more time to settle in before the rematch. I think it's an interesting wrinkle that all of the title drops in 81 were explained in-storyline by this clause. Wonderfully logical. Matysik says "DiBiASS" like Watts. He also runs down every single NWA champion going back to the 1930s while Huber works a headlock. Race misses a dropkick. Bodyslam by Huber. Very competitive jobber here. Continues to work a headlock. Apparently Huber was Dick the Bruiser's son-in-law, and seems to be getting a push here. Race breaks the momentum with a headbutt. But Huber reverses a piledriver into a backdrop. Headlock takeover by Huber: he hasn't looked bad, but then Race has been making him look good. Headbutt in the bread basket by Race. Snapmare. Kneedrop. Swinging neckbreaker. Kneedrop. Dumps him outside. Misses a headbutt on the concrete. Back in and Huber gets a one count. Race hits a piledriver for three. Really spirited performance from Huber and Race basically put in the "Flair vs. Sam Houston" performance. Very good. ***1/2 Harley Race vs. Ron Sexton (5/27/81) Still in St. Louis. Matysik runs through the hypothetical scenario that if DiBiase beats Race for the world title then the Missouri title would be vacated and Sam Muchnick would probably run a tournament for it. I actually think that people would like Larry Matysik as an announcer if he was around now, even if his voice is a bit annoying. Race dominates Sexton in the early going but eats a post to allow Sexton some time on top. Matysik talks up how hard Race's journey up to the top of the business has been, he puts over his first five years. I have to say, Matysik sells the dream of the NWA and the importance of the champion as well as any commentator I've ever heard. Race runs through all his signature spots including a delayed vertical suplex. Race is fun working squashes. ** Harley Race & JJ Dillon vs. Ted DiBiase & Spike Huber (6/5/81) We have a match JIP with DiBiase giving "Benny Romeo", Dillon's partner, the figure four to take the first fall. Romeo is injured ... and I think I know what's coming. Bobby Jaggers comes out to check on Romeo's knee. Dillon continues 2 vs 1 against the faces. DiBiase starts beating on Dillon. Huber in with a bodyslam. Of course, Harley Race comes down and offers to be Dillon's partner. The refs don't want Race there. Sam Muchnick comes down to ringside. He's not happy about this. But Race reasons "why should Dillon have to fight alone?" And Muchnick, a fair and wise old man, agrees. And so Race takes the spot. St. Louis was a place where basically everything made sense. Dillon tags him in, but then accidentally knocks Race out of the ring. DiBiase gets Dillon in the figurefour, but Race gets on the top rope and comes down with a headbutt for which he's DQ'd. DiBiase goes after Race now and we get a bit of post-match action. Race is bleeding. DiBiase keeps attacking. Posts him. Slams his head into the announce table which topples over. Refs and Huber restrain Ted. He's riled up. I don't think Ted is as bland as a babyface as we often think. At least not in terms of his fire. More of an angle than a match really, but fun to watch. ** Harley Race vs. Ted DiBiase (6/12/81) Matysik talking over arena footage. This is in the first fall. Race hits a tombstone piledriver (!!!) for the first fall. DiBiase with a shinbreaker and the figure four for the second fall. Ted keeps attacking the leg in the third. Spinning toehold. Cool backbreaker by Race. Ref bump. Slugfest now. But Race throws Ted over the top for a DQ which a second ref sees. DiBiase hits a back suplex into a bridge for the pin, but this is a Dusty finish. Ted shakes hands with the ref who denied him the world title, just to show what a nice guy he is. Too clipped for a rating, but just as the late 70s bouts, it looks like Race and DiBiase had great chemistry. Harley Race vs. Dusty Rhodes (6/21/81) Solie on commentary here. I think this is GCW rather than Florida. Race is working a sequence on top from where we join. Headbutt from the top. Piledriber. Dusty comes back with jabs. Reverses a suplex. Elbow drop. Fliying crossbody by Dusty from the top. And ... yes, he's won the world title!! Race has lost it yet again. Jim Crockett is there to present him with the belt. Dusty is carried to the back on the shoulders of jobbers. ------- This was a good batch for Race. Came out of it thinking more of him. He didn't work as weak in a lot of these matches, and he really was the top bomb-thrower of his day.

I am pro giving "unfair" advantages to bigger promotions to simulate a sense of realism.