JerryvonKramer

Really hyped for this show. I think the one to beat is the Ted DiBiase Wrestler Snapshot, that was probably Grimmas's best show to date.

Right. And to be clear, I'm not saying that every such "important" act must make everyone's list, it's an argument for consideration. I'll go back to the music analogy. I don't care for The Who. I really don't think they were very good and are my number one example of "average act who lucked out: right place, right time". But that's a view I've come to after spending hours listening to their records over a number of years and then comparing them with other bands from that era. I'd advocate every single person checking out The Who and making their own minds up. I'm also fine with being in a minority view on it. Now a "less important" act in a niche genre ... let's say Slint ... "well, lower prioroty ... will check out if I've got time". Volk Han is like a Slint in my book. Like I said tell me why my conclusions are wrong. I'm open to the arguments. It's possible that I just don't know enough about this. So educate me. Hogan and Bruno are both making my list based on what they did well. I'd also argue that both are benchmarks for babyface comebacks.

I want to say more about this because it has knock on consequences. Beatles, Dylan, Rolling Stones, etc. have all been hyped to the moon by "critical acclaim", and this fact makes them "important". But that fact also has importance for artists since them. Any promising singer/songwriter for the past 40 years has had to live with Dylan comparisons and the "new Bob Dylan" kiss of death. Any blues rock band lives in the shadow of and created by the Stones. There is no getting around this. In wrestling we also have figues like this. Although the analogy isn't a 1:1, no NWA champ can escape the influence of Lou Thesz. US heels AFTER Harley Race and Ric Flair to some extent are working with the legacy of Race and Flair. These are reasons enough to consider them. It's critical acclaim that leads to importance that leads to actively shaping the landscape of the field. Let me go back to what Bill said: Hmmmm. But what happens when the VERY CATEGORIES of "greatness" are formed and defined by previous works? Shakespeare is a great writer. He also invented some of the very formulas by which you judge what makes a work good or bad. For some people he's still the absolute standard by which to judge those things. You can't therefore make this hard distinction between "importance" on the one hand and "quality" on the other. It's more complicated. And "importance" derives from critical acclaim which presumably derives from "quality". ... Back to Volk Han. It really seems to me that that whole strand of wrestling could be lopped off and cast out. It has no bearing on anything else. It's in its own bubble and its net result is ... something that isn't wrestling at all. Jack Brisco, Harley Race, Ric Flair, Lou Thesz, the Funks -- these are guys whose legacies are built into the very fabric of what happens in a pro wrestling match. They deserve consideration for a top 100 simply because of who they are. I'll argue that all day long. I am a defender of the idea of a canon, and I don't believe we can do away with canons.

Also I am with Dylan in that I am against strategic voting based on personalities or anything like that. I don't really care about anyone else's list for the purposes of making my list. Although I am INTERESTED in other people's lists. There is a difference.

Fine, but importance and quality aren't mutually exclusive Bill. Take Citizen Kane, it's only considered important precisely because it has been critically acclaimed for over 70 years now. Shakespeare is only important because he's been considered the greatest or one of the greatest writers for centuries. So I'll qualify it with "importance derived from critical acclaim".

I personally just don't think shoot style is important enough a strand in wrestling history to give strategic consideration to. If I was putting together my top 100 music albums, I wouldn't think twice about leaving off Death Metal entirely or about not seeking out any Death Metal. It's just not a very important genre in the overall scheme of things. I don't like jazz either, but jazz is important and I gave jazz the time, I gave Miles Davis and John Coltrane the time. I still came out not liking it, I don't get it, but I put in the time. Death metal doesn't deserve my time. I've said this before -- and make no mistake about it -- I'm researching the 70s guys precisely because they were NWA champions who had reputations as being the best workers in the world, precisely because they are important and canonical figures in wrestling history. This is my approach. It would be my approach in a literary list. It would be my approach in a music list. It would be my approach in a film list. If you think shoot style is more important than what I'm giving it credit for, make the case, tell me why I'm wrong. Why does Volk Han deserve more of my time than Buddy Rodgers or Lou Thesz? Or John Cena? etc.

I've absolutely hated UWF in 1990. I will watch two Volk Han matches to decide if I'm going to change my view on this. Also, I'm being open about what I'm prepared to exclude, probably a lot of guys are going to exclude a ton of 70s workers or whoever else. They'll just do it silently.

Only half way through this chaps, enjoyable listen. Dave's "ridiculous" during Dylan's Patera ranting was quite funny, although I'm 100% with Dylan and as I said in the other thread have got to the point where I think the voting block is a joke. There are too many people who don't care enough or who don't know enough voting. I just wanted to pop in to say that I'm not sure about the "Bob Backlund was a regional star" line, well sure, but the region has the same population as the UK or Germany! I argued with Will about this before but you can't treat headlining in Watts country the same as headlining in Vince Sr's WWF. That promotion was already a "super promotion" about 5 or 6 times bigger than any other in the country at that point. New York alone is a massive area, they ran Meadowlands, Boston, Philly, Pittsburgh and Washington. So WWF at that time is akin to a national promoter by European standards -- but with bigger houses than anything World of Sport or Otto Wanz would ever do. I'm just saying that I think it's easy to diminish WWF at that time as "just another territory" when in actual fact it was a monster.

If it means anything, I'm not voting for shoot style workers for any strategic reason, but because I'm philosophically opposed to the style and don't consider it to be what pro wrestling is about. Nothing to do with the old "Parv hates matwork" idea either, I'll be voting for 70s US and World of Sport guys, and even for some Lucha guys. I'll likely vote for a few Joshi workers once I've worked through Loss's picks. Hell there's a good chance I'll vote for John Cena who represents an era I'm known to despise -- but shoot style can go do one.

I can categorically rule out voting for any shoot style workers.

By the way, I don't have any respect for the HoF any more. It's clear that many of the voters put little to no thought into it (see Brock vote), and it's clear that contemporary candidates have priority with the voting block over historical ones. Probably half the people who have ballots or more, really aren't in an informed enough position to have a proper vote. It's fun to debate, but it's a joke in my book.

Still have Dory's single matches with Jumbo to watch. Think Jumbo is much more consistent than Inoki -- Inoki's match with Dory was boring as fuck. I'm not an Inoki guy and am lower on the Brisco match than both you and Pete are. Baba can also be hit and miss. His second match with Race isn't that good, but I would have Baba above Jumbo for 70s workers.

I think the thing to bump Ivan will be getting inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame, and possibly the documentary will help.

Yip. Even Meltzer himself said he's one of the strongest guys left on the ballot.

Plus 10 years for Parv to drive Will mad!!!! Parv doesn't concern me. He has no banning powers. I do. People will be mad I banned him for like a day and then we will move on like he was never here. Would spell the end for my podcasting days. Then again, I have two books to write in a year, so might not be a bad thing ...

Care to elaborate on this?

Jones struck me as being past-his-prime but being pushed to have a good match by Jack. It feels unfair to comment on Jones as a wrestler too much because he was a draw in 1973-4 and we don't have much beyond garbage tapes to go on. Certainly he seems at least average as a wrestler, which is better than he was as a manager (i.e. awful).

I have three discs of Brisco brothers, but there'll be a lot of clips I'm assuming. This will be the same assortment of Florida TV, Mid-Atlantic, GCW etc. as we've been watching with the singles stuff + the WWF run. I will be reviewing all of these tag matches before the final denouement of getting to the Dory vs. Brisco series. Although Pete tried to steal my thunder, I'm maintaining that as the final end point of my Jack and Dory watching.

Pete, I'd be interested in your take on the way Brisco worked it. He was babyface or de facto subtle heel at most a lot of places, so he wasn't really stooging -- but he did seem to give opponents a hell of a lot, at least as much as 80-90% of a match which is near-Hogan levels, only often -- unlike Hogan -- you don't get a big comeback but instead a skank win from a reverse inside cradle or similar. I guess the question would be: who was more effective? Did Race need to do all that stooging? Despite being a big fan of Brisco the worker, I have to say a lot of the time I don't see the booking logic. I've really hated some of Eddie Graham's finishes, and think they made Brisco look weak too often when he was meant to be a wrestling machine.

I generally don't use "fun" in the same way that some others do here, if I ever use it at all. But for what it's worth ...

Please post some links to other places that are "no different" from here and I'll gladly sign up to them. All opinions are valid but not all opinions are equal. The kid of six who has just watched Frozen and thinks it's the best film ever made is entitled to that view, but let's not pretend that the view is as qualified or informed as Roger Ebert's take on the same question. Similarly, not all reviews are equal. Consider: - A youtube comment - A three-line Amazon review - A review in a newspaper - An essay in a journal The first two might be saying little more than "I like this match", but I think it's disrespectful to the reviewers in the latter two who put in more time and effort to articulate what they thought about whatever they are reviewing. There is such a thing as analysis. There is such a thing as critical insight. There is such a thing as putting into words why you think something is good or bad. I strongly object to this namby pamby notion that because "all opinions are valid" we should treat them all the same. No. A view articulated in a way that is interesting to read -- simply put -- is more worthy of my time than a view that is nothing more than "I like this match". You really wouldn't co-sign that Gregor? Why not go and post in youtube comments then?

http://placetobenation.com/pwo-ptbn-roundtable-wwe-coms-top-50-heels-in-wrestling-history-part-3/ Inspired by the Squared Circle Gazette Radio's recent show on the same topic, Parv (Titans of Wrestling, Where the Big Boys Play), Will (Good Will Wrestling, Wrestling with the Past), Johnny (Titans of Wrestling), and Steven Graham (Pro Wrestling Super Show) converge for this epic one-off roundtable to provide an alternative take on WWE.com's Top 50 Heels in Wrestling History. In this third part, they run through guys who didn't make the WWE's list who would have made theirs. Our lists:

It's because they've watched 80s and 90s Lucha. It's because they've watched Memphis. It's because guys in other places haven't bothered to watch Backlund-era WWF and so have no view other than the one they've inherited from Meltzer or whoever else (i.e. he was boring, he wasn't over, etc.) The conclusion shouldn't be "hive mind" it should be, "those guys have watched a lot of wrestling". I'll be the first to admit that I'm guilty of generalizing about the views "out there" ... but then I stick on something like Squared Circle Gazette or Place to Be and basically hear every single one of those generalizations confirmed. And those are from guys into things enough to have podcasts and even post here sometimes. Then I'll stick on something like the video reviews those guys from Ireland do. Same thing. I'll try another podcast. Same thing. I'll take a little look at a random wrestling forum just through doing a random Google search. Same thing. It's a generalization but it's backed up by some pretty firm evidence. I'm not picking on the Squared Circle guys, they are just an example. On their heels show they thought it was outrageous that Angle wasn't included in the top 50 heels. I made a point to mention Angle on our show on that exact same topic, the guys didn't think Angle should have made the list. And when I put my own list together -- as I'll be releasing in about 30 minutes -- I even had Angle on my list. Hell, I *like* Angle. But all of this comes back to footage, how much of it you watch, and more pivotally WHAT you watch. If your frame of reference is 100% WWE and its history starting from about 1985, then you're going to have a different point of view than if your frame of reference is much much wider. And I don't see other communities being as open to watching ANYTHING as guys are here. That's just how I see it. Some guys like those over at PTBN are perfectly happy with that. And fine. And not all of them agree on stuff, I see plenty of debate among PTBN guys. But tell them watch a match from Japan from 1976 and a lot of them will switch off, they prefer to stick to what they know. Just a basic fact. Fine. But I don't get this need to protect "the outside". If your frame of reference is that much smaller, it stands to reason that you're going to get the same views repeated again and again. Especially when its compounded by lazy Scott Keith reviewing. Those other places are like Empire Magazine; PWO is Sight and Sound. I just think the level of engagement, knowledge, and analysis that goes on is that much better here. Not talking about anything I do -- but what I see from friends and even from guys I don't care for on a daily basis. I'm just telling it how I see it, I'm sure others will disagree with me.

Jack Brisco vs. Buddy Colt (April/May 1973) No idea on date for this but it's from Florida and seems to be before the next match which is June 1973. So this is Jack before he won the NWA title as Florida TV champ. Solie is on commentary. Colt injures Brisco's arm on the ring post. I want to mention here the highly unusual way that Brisco performs a knee drop, he often looks like he might be going for a cross-body, does a knee with his entire body almost. It's certainly unorthodox. Brisco gets a payback spot on Colt by nailing his arm on the post. But Colt regains advantage and smashes the arm on the ring post for a second and third time. And now a fourth. Ref has seen enough and DQs Colt. What utter BS! I have to question Eddie Graham's booking there, makes the babyface look weak that finish. Jack Brisco vs. Buddy Colt (June 1973) Here's the rematch. Joined in progress. Brisco gets in a backslide. Colt comes back and Brisco writhes around in pain. Ref warns Colt about his "rough tactics". Colt goes right to the arm again and smashes it on the apron. Back on the ring post. Colt is certainly single-minded but I wonder if he has a "paucity of imagination". Ha ha. Wristlock into an armbar. Kick to the arm. Colt hasn't done a single move so far that didn't target the arm, you have to admire the focus. Hammerlock. Misses a forearm which allows Brisco to comeback but he throws a left with the injured arm -- aborted hope spot. Swinging neckbreaker by Colt. Two count. Tries to go for a headlock takeover but Brisco blocks which causes Colt to kick up knocking the ref over -- yes, it's Florida, ref bump! This allows Colt to get on the top rope, Brisco grabs him but this actually causes Colt to fall on top of him for three. Ehhh, I really don't like these finishes from Graham. They are crappy to the max. Colt seems like your typical local 70s heel to me and little more than that. Jack Brisco vs. Paul Jones (09/01/82) So this is Mid-Atlantic for the Mid-Atlantic title. Caudle on commentary with David Crockett. Brisco is older. Jones is being managed by Oliver Humperdink -- fittingly for someone who would go on to be such a crappy manager himself! Jones is a heel at this point. Story going into this match is that Jones attacked Brisco in the parking lot, injuring his leg and putting him on crutches. Caudle mentions that Brisco is hurt from said attack coming into the match and the doctors told him to take four weeks off but he wanted to defend his title. Fittingly, Brisco immedately goes after Jones's leg and does so with some intensity. Commentators are hyped to have a match like this on TV. Knee drops to the leg while still in the Indian deathlock by Brisco. Jones is looking quite old here. Irish whip and Brisco does a leg takedown. Back to the Indian deathlock and the knee drops. The older Brisco looks quite wirey. Jones gets Brisco in a headlock but Brisco bridges out and goes back to the leg. Brisco kicks the leg some more and does an elbow drop on it. This is a real 70s-style match here in 1982, not a problem though. Jones positions himself to drop a boot over Brisco's nose. That looked nasty! Jones is limping with all the leg damage but starts coming back now, but Brisco cuts him off with a shinbreaker which Jones sells by yelling out at the top of his voice. Reminds me a bit of Iron Mike Sharpe! Brisco goes outside and nails the leg repeatedly across the ring post -- nice to see he learned something from Buddy Colt all those years ago! Jones backs up into the corner. But Brisco stays focused on the leg he's attacked from the very start. Commentators reiterate how all this focus on the leg is payback for Jones's parking lot attack. Simple, effective storytelling. Jones backs up, Brisco is ready to fight. Quite a funny little detail now, which is that Jones seems like he's getting into a karate stance. Of course, karate moves were banned by the NWA at this time and David Crockett watches Jones like a hawk for any signs of "karate". Absolutely hilarious! Jones with a kick to the gut and an elbow. He continues to sell the leg. Big right form Jones gets a "Go Jack Go" chant. Jones attacks Brisco's injured leg now and goes to the Indian Deathlock. Brisco blocks it with a big left. Jones misses a kneedrop. Goes to slam him but Brisco's injured leg gives out and Jones almost gets three, but no! Big elbow onto the knee joint by Brisco now and back to the deathlock. Both men in this match have severely injured legs at this point. Another knee drop on the leg by Brisco and a butt splash on the leg. Works a different hold now. Greg Valentine -- one of the newest members of "the House of Humperdink" -- has just walked to ringside. He stands with his manager. Brisco still on this leg now. He uses his body weight well here, shades of Dory. Humperdink goes over to the commentators and says that he's seen Brisco use every cheap trick in the book. Not good on the mic. Jones tries to go for a figure-four but Brisco blocks. Slugfest now and Humperdink wants a DQ for the use of the fists by Brisco. Snapmare. Figure-four!! David Crockett is excited. Humperdink jumps up on the apron, Brisco goes after him but slips on the chord and this triggers his leg injury again. He crawls back into the ring and Jones is manic in trying to attack this leg again. Wraps it around the bottom rope, with more Mike Sharpe style shouting. Knee drops and stomps on the leg. Brisco with a few lefts to come back. Irish whip and Brisco runs into a ... oh no!! KATATE BLOW TO THE THROAT! Jones wins the Mid-Atlantic title with the illegal use of karate. This match went a good 15 minutes or and was very good. If you want a match that tells a very coherent story around a body part, then this one wouldn't be a bad idea. Great selling, and I felt that both guys worked around Jones's limitations really well. Almost the entire match was worked on the mat and around leg injuries, but it was very effectively done. Leading match so far that I've seen in the Brisco post-prime.The "illegal karate finish" is also a fun little historical curiosity. ***3/4 Jack Brisco vs. Ric Flair (08/18/82) Flair is in the studio running his mouth against Wahoo and, I believe, a very young Mike Rotunda. He's prepared to take on ANYONE Wahoo can put against him in the ring ... and then he turns round to see Jack Brisco standing in the middle of it. Flair protests and tries to back out of it. Flair is irate. Caudle points out to him that he was just complaining about a lack of competition. "You want some of me, eh? Brisco? YOU WANT SOME OF ME!" Flair is awesome. This should be interesting, two guys who made their name primarily selling -- I predict Jack will be the more offensive of the two trying to keep things to the mat while Flair tries to keep it moving, but let's see. Elbow and collar tie up to start. Abdominal stretch by Brisco. Down into a pin attempt. Arm drag by Brisco into an armbar. Another arm drag and a beauty. Arm bar again. Flair comes back with a shoulder charge and a chop but Brisco reverses an Irish whip to send Ric into the corner. Another sweet arm drag and a knee drop onto the arm. Paul Jones has been on commentary trash talking Brisco. Wristlock and Flair sells this with gusto. Comes back with some Flair chops. Hip toss by Brisco. Roly-poly short-arm scissor lock spot. Brisco ends on top with Flair's arm trapped on the mat. Flair gets himself into a pinning position but uses the bottom rope for leverage. Ref spots it. Break. Series of lefts by Brisco now sends Ric for a Flair flop. Crossbody by Brisco gets two. Brisco goes to the outside and Flair smashes Jack's head on the turnbuckle. Kneedrop by Flair. Piledriver! Shaky-leg sell from Brisco on that. Gets two. Big chop by Flair. Elbow smash. Suplex? No. Brisco slips behind for a sleeper. Flair counters with a big belly to back suplex. Shinbreaker! Figure-four!! But Brisco -- the master of the hold -- IMMEDIATELY reverses it. Wow, that was cool to see. Flair didn't even have it on for a second before he reversed it. Brisco switches focus to working Flair's leg now. Flair with an eye poke to break the momentum. Bodyslam by Flair. He goes to the top rope but Brisco catches and slams him off. Figure-four by Brisco! No, Flair immediately evades. Neat. Small package gets two for Flair. Headlock take over. Flair bridges over into a pinning predicament, Brisco bridges up and powers out. Cool spot. Into a backslide now and Brisco gets 1, 2, 3!! Wow. Brisco pins Flair. Flair is pissed and starts the heel beatdown on Brisco post-match. Wahoo hits the ring and Flair bails. Flair: "Brisco!!! You'readeadman!! No one does this to me and gets away with it!" This is a very nice match up and an interesting contrast of styles between two different generations of NWA champions. I really loved the stuff around the figure-four with neither guy willing to let the other guy execute it successfully. I thought this put Brisco over huge, esecially considering it was 1982 and Brisco hadn't historically been a Carolinas guy. Brisco showed he could still go here and sold all of Flair's high artillery offense well. However, it's also much more clear here than it is against Jones that he has lost half a step since his prime. In the Jones match, since he's clearly the one carrying things, it's less noticeable, but here there's a couple of times when you wonder if Jack isn't a bit blown up. Even so, if this had been allowed to go another 5-6 minutes, it might have been a really good match. As it is, it's a solid 12-minute studio match with a nice angle around it. A Brisco vs. Flair 45-minute broadway, even from 1982, would be a dream match in my book. ***1/2 Jack Brisco vs. Jim Nelson[ (05/18/83) Still from this Mid-Atlnatic run. Before this we get to the match they show a clip. Jerry Brisco has Jay Youngblood in the figure four and Jack runs over and does a big splash onto the legs of both guys. Caudle is with the Brisco brothers now and Jack wants to explain his actions. According to Jack he was just trying to save his brother who was at risk of getting seriously injured. Jim Nelson comes over now and says that he can't believe those two guys. He's digusted that Jack Brisco deliberately tried to injure Youngblood and put him out of wrestling, especially after they'd claimed to him that it was a mistake. Nelson, incidentally, is COMPLETELY unrecognisable here from Boris Zukhov, to the point where I'm struggling to see how it is the same guy. Nelson: "... and a former world champion too, you're a coward Jack Brisco!" Brisco: "What?! You don't call me no coward!" They start fighting and here's our match. Jack's still got his jeans on, but you don't fire up a real genuine Native American like that and think you're going to get away with it. Brisco is full of piss and vinegar here and pounds away at Nelson. Snapmare. Kneedrop in his cowboy boots. Nelson comes back with punches. Misses a kneedrop. Figure-four!! Jerry Brisco in a full suit -- and somewhat foreshadowing what he'd spend the 90s doing -- comes off the top rope now. Nelson nurses his injured leg as the Brisco brothers embrace. Figure-four once again by Jack. Jimmy Valiant, Johnny Weaver, and other faces come out as the Briscos bail. Johnny Weaver isn't happy. He comes over and says he can't believe the Briscos would stoop so low to beat up a kid like that. Jack Brisco says "believe me when I say that Jim Nelson is finished! You ain't gonna see him around here no more" Jimmy Valiant wearing all red comes over and the Briscos give him a double scoop slam on the floor. He sells it like an electrified eel. Jack and Jerry walk off as Valiant spazzes out. This was a lot of fun and the brawl, while it lasted, was heated as hell. It's fun to see Brisco heeling it up so massively here, and Jerry honestly does come off as a little stooge standing next to his big brother. Cool dynamic for a heel team and exactly what he should have been doing at this point in his career. Jack Brisco vs. Rick Connors (12/08/82) This is during the Jones feud because Caudle is talking about it. Brisco with his usual leg-based ground game here, including several hamstring snaps before Connors submits to the figure-four. As Pete would say, "just a squash, just a squash, just a squash". Jack Brisco vs. Ric Flair (09/08/81) This is from Florida. Flair has very long hair here. Solie on commentary. This should be interesting if we get it in full, Brisco a year younger and on his home turf. Weirdly, Solie talks a lot about how Flair has very wealthy parents and that even despite that, he's made his own way in life as a top athlete. I didn't realise that Flair having wealthy parents was a part of his gimmick. He also mentions how the one thing that has evaded Flair so far in his career was holding the world title. This caused me to double check the date and sure enough this was DAYS before his first time reign. Quite interesting, then, that this appears to be a match with Flair as a travelling heel attraction WITHOUT the title. You don't tend to think of Flair doing that, but here he is in Florida in 81 before winning the belt. Dusty is on commentary too and he is the champ at this point. Okay, I think this makes more sense why Flair is in Florida now -- clearly he's challenging Dusty for his title soon and so the Florida crowd need a chance to see him. That puts Jack in a kind of Chief Jay Strongbow or Dominic Denucci role for Dusty --- at least that's one way of seeing it. Big slugging lefts and rights from Jack to start. Crossbody by Flair. Goes for a suplex but Brisco reverses it. Brisco misses an elbow drop. Goes for an atomic drop but Flair seems like he blocks it and Flair gets the figure-four on! Solie mentions that this was the hold that won Brisco the world title, nice. This seems like a big arena and crowd for this match. Brisco reverses it. Flair gets to the ropes for a break. Hot opening to this one. Flair goes in for the figure-four again but Brisco kicks him off. Hip toss by Brisco. Snapmare. And Brisco goes for the figure-four but Flair kicks him off. Solie says that Flair's definitely been doing his homework. Flair goes for it now, but Brisco kicks him off. Shinbreaker by Flair! And now he does get the figure-four! But Brisco reverses it into an inside cradle for the 1, 2, 3! Huh, Brisco gets the pin?! Post match they brawl some more. Well this didn't go very long, and unless there was covert clipping I didn't spot, just seemed to be worked like one long-ish finishing stretch. Disappointing, I preferred the studio match from 82. I also just can't understand that booking, having Ric pinned a week before he's about to win the world title. All logic says he goes over Jack here en route to Dusty. Bizarre. Eddie Graham fast becoming one of my least favourite bookers. Jack Brisco vs. Don Muraco (April / May 1982?) Here we go Grimmas. Can't find a date for this, but it's got to be early 82 before the Jones feud and before Brisco turned heel, because that's when Piper was around. Muraco gives an interview with Caudle to start with. "I'm Magnificent Muraco! The Prince of Darkness has returned! And if YOU ever call me Don Muraco again, I will not be responsible for what happens" Ha ha, so he demands to be called "Magnificent" instead of "Don". Brisco comes out. Says everyone knows that Muraco is the reason that "The Chief" (i.e. Wahoo) isn't the US champion any more. "And if you had any guts at all, you'd get in the ring and rassle me right now". Brisco has really come across like a real southern boy in these interviews. I didn't realise his accent was quite so thick. Muraco: I know you're one of the greatest NWA World champions ever to have the hold around his waist, but you've had your day! Muraco talks about how he and Roddy Piper are ripping shit up in Mid-Atlantic right now. Brisco: I know what you are, you're a BEACH BUM is what you are. And now Jack slaps the sun glasses from off his face. Muraco is riled now. Great heated little segment. Muraco: I got one Indian down, well now you're going down too ... INDIAN Ooooohhhh. It's on like voltron. I'll immediately note that Muraco has put on a shit ton of mass and weight since 1976, Brisco hasn't. Brisco dominates to start. Snapmare. Muraco backs up. Sweet deep arm drag by Brisco. Arm bar. Roddy Piper comes to ringside. Knee lift by Muraco. Shoulder charge. Scoop powerslam by Brisco and an arm drag. Caudle asks Piper if he's come to ringside to assist Muraco. Piper says that it doesn't need both of them to injure Brisco's knee. Caudle says this is the most subdued he's ever seen Piper. Irish whip into the corner and a backdrop by Brisco. Into the arm bar again. Piper looks on concerned and very quiet. Elbow by Muraco, but Brisco gets in an arm wrench. Wristlock takeover by Brisco. Knee drop on the arm. Truly is a "technical" wrestler. Hammerlock. Kneedrop into the hammerlock. Muraco with the elbow but catches another arm drag as a counter to a forearm -- nice. "Way to Jack, way to go" chant. Laaaammme. Muraco headbutts Brisco's injured knee. That's called a transition. Muraco goes to work on this leg now. Smash into ring post. Knee drop onto it. Hamstring snap. Figure-four! Brisco cries out in pain, but he turns it over. Piper gets on the top rope and hits a clothesline. Throws the ref again and we have ourselves a 2 on 1 heel beatdown. Piper grabs a chair. Manic punches by Piper now as Muraco holds him. Choking! Jimmy Valiant all in yellow today runs out to clear house. Okay match but something felt a bit lethargic about it to me. Two main problems: 1. This started off as a wild and heated impromteau brawl, so I question Brisco's decision to work this as technically as he ended up doing. There was a ton of fire at the start but then it settled down into a "normal match". Don't see why it should have. 2. Muraco was pretty plodding in this match. There's a thin line between "deliberate and methodical" on the one hand, and "just plain slow" on the other, and Muraco crossed it. Not one of the better Jack outings you'll ever see. **1/2 Jack Brisco vs. Roddy Piper 07/07/82) This is for the Mid-Atlantic title. Brisco, with the help of Wahoo McDaniel, has put up $10k for this match. Piper wouldn't put up the belt without the money on the line. Some other backstory here is that Piper injured Jerry Brisco's leg and put him out of commission and then tried to do the same to Jack. So not only has be been ducking putting the title on the line, he's fucked with Brisco's brother as well. Elbow and collar tieup. Piper comes off second best and bails. Some amatuer-style counter wrestling now as Piper tries to get behind Brisco but he out-wrestles him to finish up behind -- that's a former NCAA champion Piper, think again sonny. As I say that Piper slips behind. And grabs a hand full of hair. Brisco shunts him down and sends Piper flying out of the ring. Back in and Brisco is ready to fight. Headlock by Brisco. He wrenches on this now. Classic-looking headlock. Some rope running now and a massive clothesline from Brisco after a leap frog by Piper -- almost took his head off. David Crockett almost wets himself. Back to the headlock by Brisco. He's really wrenching this, looks like it is very tightly applied. Piper tries to escape but Jack nips up onto the turnbuckle and then uses the momentum to swing him back round into a headlock takeover. Awesome move and it gets a two count. Still in the headlock. Couple of nearfalls. Jack keeps this headlock synced in. Piper's arm has gone limp as David Crockett talks about oxygen. Brisco lunges forward in the headlock, up to a vertical base. But finally Piper comes back and rams Brisco's head into the turnbuckle. And again. Brisco doesn't let go. Piper tries to escape and Brisco almost bull dogs him because he's not letting go of this headlock! Brisco wrenches his forearm into Piper's temple, but now Piper escapes with a big back suplex out of the corner to get ot of the headlock. Piper sits up, dazed. Big kick into Brisco's side. Massive chops by Piper. Piper is still clearing the cobwebs but he's pissed off now. Goes to a front facelock which seems like a concealed choke. Continues to do this and almost gets a three out of it. Big turnbuckle shot again and Brisco goes flying. Brisco with some big shots on his knees and so Piper dumps him. Outside and this is turning into a brawl. Piper rolled by in. Big strikes now but Piper slips behind for the sleeper! Brisco is fading fast. Arm goes down once, twice ... no! "Go Jack Go" chant. He tries to break out of it but Piper comes down with all his body weight. Back down on the mat and Brisco is fading fast again. Brisco starts writhing and struggling. He powers out with a back suplex. Both men down. Piper tries to crawl over, Irish whip but Jack gets the sleeper now and jumps on his back to add more weight. Piper stumbles and fights. Down to his knees. "Look at 'im, look at 'im" cries David Crockett. Thumb to the eye breaks it. Brisco gives Piper a couple of turnbuckle shots now and this is becoming a slugfest. Big shots left and right. Piper falls to the outside and Brisco slams his head on the apron. Piper tries to get back in. He's got something in his hands. A roll of coins? Oh no, not like this! He covers, 1, 2, and that's it. There's money all over that ring, the camera zooms in on it. Piper is beside himself. "It's MINE! Make no mistake. I'm the champion! The money!" He claims that people threw the money into the ring. David Crockett wants to see a replay. We watch the closing moments of the match again. Caudle points out the moment when Piper gets the coins. He has something in his hand. What a travesty of justice. This was a pretty great match. About twenty minutes. Brisco was very gritty here with real determination on that headlock and this was a cool clash of styles and tempraments. Brisco, the veteran and the technician who can still lose his temper because of his "firey blood", against Piper, the young upstart, big mouth, scrappy brawler. They had some good chemistry. And this is one of the best Brisco matches on US soil that I've seen so far. ****

Glad you liked the second Baba match Pete, my batch is forthcoming for tonight. Just a quick question to everyone: is this the only time Bobo Brazil worked a wild man heel gimmick? I was quite surprised to see him doing it.