JerryvonKramer

I don't watch TNA, but my money is on these guys being Tex Slazenger and Shanghai Pierce!

What happened to this show, they haven't done a new one in ages.

Hard to say isn't it, degrees of greatness. Bob Dylan dies in '76 he's going in no matter what, in '68 he's still probably going in no matter what, hell if he died in '64 he's still probably going in based on body of work to that point less than 4 years into his career. Orson Welles would be going in just after Citizen Kane alone. It's degrees of greatness. Question with Cena is whether he's on that sort of level after 10 years or not. To me it seems absurd to be thinking about him in those sort of terms, but then I'm me.

January 1st, 1985 - First episode of Prime Time ever. - Funky 80s music with stark, no very stark, blue screen and titles, featuring some "no frills" looking wrestling from the likes of the Iron Sheik and Hogan. - Your hosts are not Gorilla Monsooon and Bobby Heenan, but Jack Reynolds and, my favourite, Jesse Ventura. Jesse is wearing a leather jacket, shades and a beret. Reynolds looks like he was dug up from the same place Vince got that old time band on TNT. "Pleasure to be here, the pleasure's yours and for all the people out there on the USA Network". Jesse tells us that TNT will now be on Fridays. Doesn't it stand for "Tuesday Night Titans"? Bizarre. Hating the mild-mannered and charisma-less Jack Reynolds, bringing nothing to the table so far. They talk about Ventura's blood clots in 84. Jesse says he's coming back, I don't believe him. Dr. D David Schultz is going to be taking on Salvatore Bellomo. Can't wait. Reynolds and Ventura are an awkward pairing. - Monsoon is commentating on the Schultz match with Gene Okerlund. Schultz gives Bellomo a knee to the gut and Mean Gene says, "That'll jar your mother's preserves". What sort of saying is that?! Elbow from the top from Schultz and Bellomo KICKS OUT! What the hell?! Hasn't Bellomo read the jobber's manual. Schultz gives him a suplex for that, "well executed", says Gorilla. It's probably one of the worst suplexes I've ever seen. That's it for the 3. Gene and Monsoon rail on the ref for a slow count. Howard Finkel looks thin and weedy. - Ventura is definitely not his usual smooth self here. Dare I say he's even a little green in this role, stumbling on his words a bit, and a bit stiff in front of the camera. They are talking about Murdoch and Adonis. Reynolds is like a piece of actual cardboard. Murdoch is going to be taking on Somoan #1, Afa. Ventura says that he doesn't think the Somoans should be allowed in wrestling because "neither one of them can read or write ... all they've got is a hard skull". All Reynolds has to come back with is "Jesse, the Somoans have done very well in professional wrestling". So what? They can't read or write? - Murdoch taking on Afa now at MSG and we get some turnbuckle spots. Both men have significant poundage around their waists. Murdoch stupidly tries to headbutt Afa. Gene buries him: "what a feeble attempt by Murdoch". Action goes to the outside and Murdoch uses a cable to choke Afa. Nice viscousness from Murdoch. He stays on top for a few mins before inexplicably going for the head again. Okerlund is having kittens. He and Monsoon might be the most openly critical commentary team in history. Afa has a series of pin attemps which are broken by a foot on the rope. Gene: "c'mon, give me a break, I've got to question the thought process of the Samoan".Murdoch's selling is a bit cartoonish. He nails Afa with a jug of whiskey! Gene and Gorilla are back on the ref's case. Afa smacks Murdoch in the kisser and he checks to see if his tooth has come out. Can't tell if that's legit, but if not that's a cool spot. Time limit draw. Disappointing finish to a pretty good match. Murdoch was excellent here. Murdoch requests another 5 mins. Afa cleans his clock. - Some really shitty arguing between Jesse and Reynolds now. This Reynolds has to go, he's crap. Mad Dog Vachon vs Rick McGraw comin up. - Interview with Maddog now. His beard doesn't look real. He says "people come here to make a name for themselves, but my name is already a legend in wrestling" Nice line. Match vs McGraw now. Vachon is billed from Algeria. Straight into a headlock here. Mean Gene tells a joke that I simply do not get: "Matter of fact, I lost my dog the other day", "the one that was sick?" "Came in the house for a drink and the lid fell on his head." Gorilla cracks up. There's something I'm not seeing there. I know Monsoon is deeply unpopular round these parts and Gene is bringing out the worst in him, but I kinda like their schtick here. They come across as two mates who are watching sports together and what they say just happens to be recorded. It's quite natural and has an "easy feel" to it. The fact that they are burying and criticising guys all the time, scarcely matters really. You just have to shift your mind from the ideal of a Solie or Jim Ross who is a professional guy who calls the action, to this weird sort of "armchair fan's running commentary" thing that Monsoon and Okerlund are doing here. If you see it that way, harping on the ref or being critical "adds realism". You could say their job is to get the action over, or the wrestlers over, or you could say is their job is to "be the voice of the fan at home" and keep things entertaining. On this evidence I'm veering towards the latter. Monsoon mentions that McGraw had a terrible neck injury and that "he's just not the same, there's something missing there". Having looked this up, I understand the subtext of that comment. Piledriver from Vachon and it's over. Okerlund calls for the piledriver to be banned. - Reynolds: "I'll tell ya, you can't beat the crafty veterans". No one would ever say that. Hate Jack Reynolds. Ventura is still quite stiff. They are now talking about a "fast rising star", David Sammartino. Oh boy. Ventura buries him: "No way Jack! Let me tell ya something, this little ... beer-bellied punk is doing nothing but ride on the coattails of his daddy do Bruno" "I don't agree with you at all" "Well I don't care if you agree with me, I know". Glimours of the Jesse we all know and love here, but Reynolds is so fucking unnatural and fake. - David Sammartino now. Bit harsh of Jesse to call him beer-bellied, ha ha. Limited charisma, but no less than any other generic white meat babyface of this era. - Ventura accuses Bruno of retiring out of cowardice just before he joined the WWF in 1981. lol got to love that. - David Sammartino is taking on the WWF's answer to the Boogie Woogie Man Jimmy Valiant, Moondog Spot. GENE HACKMAN is in the crowd. Wow. Mean Gene and Gorilla talk about how Monsoon used to be over 400lbs and Gene asks him how his diet is going. I pretty much hate everything David Sammatino is doing here. Moondog hits him, he says "come on!", and again, and again, and again. What the fuck is this? Both Okerlund and Moonson think it's "obvious" that Sammartino is going to go a long way in this sport. Moondog Spot looks like an actual tramp they found begging outside MSG and paid to be in the ring. He's actually pretty good and controls this match well. Nice backbreaker. David Sammartino's no-selling and saying "come on!" routine is getting old very fast. I'm actively cheering for Moondog Spot here. Sammartino is a total cock. He knocks Moondog down and then shouts "GET UP!". Really seems like he's working heel to me. Nice standing vertical suplex from David Sammartino, I'm mildly impressed. He reverses a pinfall attempt into a small package for the three. Can't see any future for this young man at all. Post-match Moondog beats on him, good. Crowd really gets behind David when he grabs Spot's bone. - The ongoing argument between Ventura and Reynolds is painful, mainly because of Reynolds. Tito Santana vs. Greg Valentine coming up. Ventura immediately starts with the "Chico" stuff. "Believe it or not he used to be the Intercontinental champion, and that's a big big jump from when he used to be selling tacos out in Tijuana". Reynolds no sells this. - Tito is with Monsoon. He looks pissed off. He's been injured but wants a piece of Valentine. Too bland this promo for me, expected more fire. - The big fat sloppy pig Lou Alabano is out, he's Greg Valentine's manager. Does this mean his face turn was just 3 days later or was this a show from a while back? Anyway, crowd is hot for Santana. And he's fired up. Attacks Valentine immediately and nails Valentine with some nice shots. Rams Valentine's head into the mat. 7 punches to the face. Some great forearms from Tito. Albano is bugging the commentary team, Gene: "come on stay off of my case will ya". Santana is like a man possessed here, trying to tear Valentine's face off. Nice atomic drop from Valentine. He target's Tito's injured leg. Throws him outside for the cheapshot from Albano. Action continues outside for a brawl. Valentine misses a chairshot. Santana nails Valentine with the chair. DQ?! Santana continues to nail Valentine in the face. Valentine has colour! Santana throws ref down. DQ???!!! Yes. Santana keeps nailing Valentine in the fact. He's so fucking pissed off here. This is awesome! Nails Albano. The heels run off. Tito is so fired up, roof of MSG sounds like it's going to come off. - Less said about Jack Reynolds the better, he sucks, fire him already Vince. Ventura calls Santana "a disgrace to his family" for flagrant rulebreaking. - Sika against Adrian Adonis now. Monsoon calls the 298lb that Sika is billed at "highly unlikely". I'm inclined to agree looks about 315. Adonis is wearing an NY jacket. Weird how he'd be the heel here. Adonis has a body like a barrell at this point. I'm thinking that this match can only end in a draw after the Afa / Murdoch match earlier. I like Adonis, he's light on his feet, he moves welll, he sells well. Ref takes a bump and calls for a DQ immediately. Oh, win for Sika. Shows what I know. - Ventura says Adonis hasn't lost a thing since his days teaming with him in the East-West Coast Connection. Another break now. Tony Garea vs. Brutus Beefcake coming up. Ventura likes Beefcake but says he needs to "get his strut down a little more". - Beefcake hails from the infamous "parts unknown" here and is managed by Lucious Johnny Valiant. Tony Garea is hailing from the mid 1970s if his jacket and haircut are anything to go by. Okerlund: "Parts Unkown alright, I've got a pretty good idea where this guy is from". Ha ha ha. Beefcake is in his Zodiac zebra stripes here. He does a lot of strutting. Some good heeling from Beefer. Lucious Johnny has stepped right out of a Ron Jeremy film, awesome tache. Gerea does a lot of running back and forth before Beefcake gets the three after a three. Not a bad match considering Beefcake was involved. - Ventura says that if he hadn't have gotten sick, he'd have been the champ "not chump Hogan". After the break he's facing Big John Studd to defend the world title! Plot point is that Studd has been calling himself "a giant". Hogan is in the white trunks here. Okerlund: "now why is it that these fans insist on calling Mr. Heenan a weasal?" Ha ha. Crowd is wild for Hogan. Studd is really quite a big guy isn't he. So what does he do? A chinlock. One of those really loose, fake looking ones too. Heenan is giving signals to Studd. Shows him nine fingers. The commentators speculate as to what that could mean. Studd drops Hogan across the ropes on this throat. Action goes outside and a fan is jawing Studd and pointing angrily. I count a total of 16 moustaches in this section of the crowd. 1985 man. Hogan taking a pasting from Studd here. Starts his comeback now, Hulking up. Feels a bit early. Unloads the right hands. Ropes. Elbow! Not the big boot? Lariat! And that's enough for the three. No leg drop? Well done Rip. - Ventura is speechless before the break and after it freaks out and storms out. Reynolds wraps up alone. - Unexpected good wrestling on this show, which was more like an MSG supercard. Murdoch looked great and one of the best performances from Tito I've ever seen. Wow. And Hogan vs. Studd was a nice big-time feeling MSG match for the main event too.

As the standard bearer for "entertainment" round these parts, I thought I'd share with you my journey through the sheer cheese that is WWF TNT and the only marginally less cheesy (but awesome) Prime Time. I did not acquire this material for the wrestling, I acquired it for ... everything else. Vince's ridiculous chat show. The "expert panel" on Prime Time. The skits. This is my sole reason for owning all of this. That said if a good match DOES turn up somewhere, it surely can't hurt. As ever, I will not so much review or recap these shows, as I will simply provide a kind of stream-of-consciousness running commentary of what I'm seeing. January 4th, 1985, TNT - Vince has a new band to showcase on TNT, a cheesy brass band that is. He looks very pleased with it. Lord Alfred is, of course, on hand looking like he just fell out of a 60s Butlins. - Hulk Hogan is "training" Hillybilly Jim. Making him drink his vitamins -- which seems to be some sort of magic carrot juice -- which will help him work out harder in the gym ... hmmm, is Hulk being the best role model here I wonder. In the gym itself we're treated to some nice squats and bench presses by the Hulk and some significantly shitter ones from Hillbilly. The funniest thing about this sequence is that Hulk keeps telling him to "think of the farm" as motivation. Ha ha ha. - Nikolai Volkoff is here to sing a number with the band. We're shown a quick jobber match against "Athens Apollo" of his before 3-4 gruelling minutes of interview time. His central idea is that Americans lack the class to stay quiet for his Russian anthem -- he's not wrong y'know! He contends that Russians would stay quiet for the American anthem. I haven't seen enough Russian wrestling to comment. The fans in Zangief's stage in Street Fighter 2 seemed pretty respectful to me. There is hype for Volkoff's burgeoning tag-team with the Iron Sheik and a possible future match with the US Express. Volkoff also name checked Adonis and Murdoch, who I would have thought were gone by 85 (Murdoch at least). - Noticed that Vince is a fan of the extreme cheese link. This slick, slightly schmoozy chat-show host persona is one of my favourite versions of Vince. - Lou or as Vince says "Lewis" Albano is out now and he appears to have a rubber band attached to his face. This is not a good look. He's been raising money for charaddee with Cyndi Lauper. The big beef is with Piper, who has been saying that he "made" the career of Lauper who he continually calls a "broad". Some clips of the two of them arguing. Albano gives a shouty promo about it, big fat sloppy pig that he is. Vince asks him to calm down at one stage. - Piper is the next guest and his entrance is amazing cock heel smugness. He makes some hilarious comments about Vince's new band being at the cutting edge of rock and roll. There's some previous between he and Lord Alfred (Piper attacked him before), and we're told that Piper is only appearing because Alfred is ok with it. Within 30 seconds its clear at Piper has more charisma than all of the other people who have appeared so far combined. Clip of him and the Tonga Kid, who batters Poper with a chair quite viciously. Sheik, Volkoff and Greg Valentine make the save. This is a bit of a weird mix of people. - Piper attacks Tonga Kid's earrings and hair. He accuses him of "degenerating all of society". He goes on to say "if a women hits me, I'll hit her back". Nice Hotrod. He then accuses Lou Albano of pocketing some of the $4million he helped raise for multiple sclerosis, that pisses him off enough to come back. This showdown is gold. Piper nails Albano. Shades of Mr. McMahon from Vince: "C'monnn ggrrrr out of herrree" Ha ha ha - Lou Albano spazzes out for at least 5 minutes, seems like he's going to either have a nervous breakdown or a heart seizure. The band takes us out as Alfred and Vince try to calm Albano down. - The music from the band is amazingly schmaltzy, I imagine this might be the sort of band they'd have on one of those old US chat shows from the 1950s. Maybe presented by Dick Van Dyke. The idea that Vince not only thought this was a great idea but also got it on the air, is legit amazing to me.

Will just chime in to say that I listened to the Capetta show a while back and thought it was phenomenal. Better than 95% of shoots I've seen or listened to in years. Scott and Justin already know I'm a fan of their vaults. Stuck in 1995-land at the moment though.

Hey mark, on my iTunes #13 is the right show. Can you check again? Tried streaming it direct from the iTunes page too and it's still the right show (Starrcade). Are you getting the Bash show? Incidentally, we're due a new show soon. Chad's been on vacation and we've had a spot of trouble getting hold of footage and fixing a time to record. One thing I haven't been very pro-active in doing is asking for freedback and encouraging people to leave their thoughts on the PPV or TV shows themselves. We're doing Supertowns on the Superstation next from Feb 87 if anyone wants to share any of their views on that show then leave them here!

What's the difference between the technique of an artist and the finished painting? What's the difference between the voice of a singer and the material he's singing? Are great performances given by actors always in great films? Or can you get a great performance in an otherwise poor film? Do great films always feature great performances by actors? Or can you get a great film with performances that'll "just do"? Do you judge the worth of an actor purely by how many great films he's in? Or do you judge him on what he's like in all his films? Or even by when he's good in a bad film? To say there is no difference between "in-ring" and "matches" is, to my mind, totally absurd. Totally. Is the way somebody performs a suplex not important? What about the way they engage with the crowd? What about the reaction they get from the crowd? What about their selling? Somebody could be legit GREAT at all of those things during the course of a jobber squash match. The match is nothing. The guy still gave a great performance. I'll argue along these lines to the day I die. "Great matches" become important when you're trying to decide on a GOAT, when the margins are slim, when everything else can be argued one way or the other. Bam Bam vs. Bossman hardly seems like such a case. Let's not get any further down this road, this feels like the the 1000th time, and don't think the respective parties will budge from their lines on this any time soon. All of which is saying ... Yes, I think Bam Bam was better than Bossman because he did cartwheels. EDIT: What makes you say he was "smarter"? What did he do that was smarter? Or, more to the point, in what ways was Bam Bam not a smart worker?

As always, I'm not taking simply "matches" as the only barometer. The criteria was "in-ring" not "matches". In-ring, I think you can argue Bigelow was a better worker than Bossman.

To be fair every Konnan match from that period sucked, so I'm not fully blaming Gang.

More like 2-3 year old memories, I watched all of the WCW PPVs from 1991 till 1996 between 2009 and 2011. Just remember thinking Gang looked terrible in WCW whenever he turned up.

The Konnan matches? The match with Kensuke Sasaki when he won the US title? What are you basing the counter argument on? A squash match vs. The Yeti? Serious? Can't believe Whatley was still about in 95, let along having good matches with Gang at that time. Re: Sid, my memory might be playing tricks on me. I *think* maybe Sid jobbed to El Gigante on his way out (stretcher job?) and Gang jumped Gigante? Maybe that was it, seem to have erased it from my mind.

The matches with Sid and El Gigante spring to mind. And most of his 95 stuff was total shite.

Gang has quite a decent late run with the US belt, hardly "blackballed" was he. That said, can't see this being anything other than: Bigelow Bossman Gang Gang has more shitty matches that the other two, a lot more. Bossman when motivated was a GREAT woker. Bam Bam is a case of "what could have been" but what he did do was still impressive.

I disagree. He was more a case of being hot for a really short period of time. I'm assuming you've not seen his kung-fu moves.

Safe to say that the definitive answer for this is Billy Graham.

No real discussion of Wilbur Snyder here. Does the man who invented the abdominal stretch deserve to be in the HoF?

Yeah but my understanding is that Dick the Bruiser would show up on AWA TV a lot and was tag champ for a decent run and actually AWA World Champ once too in 1966. Had the working agreement long gone by the 80s?

Random question but did Dick the Bruiser turn up at all when you were watching the footage for the AWA set. The Crusher is around, so where is Dick?

Think this thread would be much more fruitful if people gave reasons for why they are ranking things the way they are.

Anyone got any details on this "UK Wrestling" that has randomly come on my TV? Airs Saturdays around 6pm on the obscure channel "My Channel". I set it to Sky + and have recorded it, but the crowd looks like it has about 20 people in it. Seems to be this: http://www.ukwrestlingexperience.co.uk/home http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKW_%E2%80%93...ling_Experience Genuinely shocked that something so incredibly low-rent has made TV, yet I'm oddly fascinated that things like this are happening. Feel it's going to be incredibly difficult for them to grow their audience, but wow.

While we're playing this game, I'll throw out another set: Tully Blanchard Ricky Steamboat Randy Savage Might just be because I've been watching a lot of 80s NWA recently, but I'd probably put Tully as 1. right now and a legit contender for "worker of the 80s". If anyone disagrees, I'd be interested to read cases for putting either Savage or Steamer higher.

What's the real case for Murdoch beyond the fact he was around a long time?