JerryvonKramer

Well, here's what I just sent Steven: 1. Random RWTL match (Parv's pick) 2. Random fat guy match (Steven's pick) 3. Joshi classic 4. Noah classic Maybe add a fifth category (fan request?) That seems like it might be fun.

Me and Steven still need to discuss this. I think he wanted to watch girl wrestlers or go forward into 00s Noah. I was probably leaning more on the side of just ending the series. However, AJ had a lot of weird and wonderful and random workers move through it over the years, so I would not be against doing a few shows of completely random picks. Maybe we could take 2-3 each. Naturally this would lead to a lot of Bossman and Tenta picks from Steven but I can live with that, especially as I'd get some revenge by making him watch Tor Kamata matches and then admitting that Kamata was probably better than Bossman. Show #16 is due later tonight and we will discuss options. I think I have a little idea, but let's see what Grimmas says.

Holy shit, Regal might make a late surge for top 5. I'm watching his match against Mutoh from 95, a match I've not seen pimped and never heard anyone talk about. Dude was fucking amazing.

I remember lots of people at that time calling him the most underrated and under-utilised guy around. Equivalent to how fans think about Cesaro now I'd say. Smart fans have always had "their" guys to harp on. People wanted WCW to sideline Hogan and co to push the likes of Dean on top.

1. How much credit do you give Bobby for 95-00 WCW? 2. Is there a case for cutting off his peak later than 92?

Without wishing to derail, this is my problem with so much Lucha. And I do think it is a legit criticism of Dean too.

Sadly I don't think I'm gonna have time for Joshi. Something's gotta give. Damn shame.

No. I made a decision some time ago that I won't be rating golden age workers. Too many unknowns.

Actually you are correct, not sure why AJPW is listed. -1 to Rick and Scott on that. Should be +2 not +3. Fuyuki can also gave those points, seems fair

Batista Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 6 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of the best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 Variety = 7 22 Doug Somers Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 = 7 Intangibles 1 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 1986-7 = 2 years = 2 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 4 23 Dynamite Kid Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 0/3 (+1 for snap suplex) = 7 Intangibles 3 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1980-7 = 7 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (England, Calgary, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 7 30 Gino Hernandez Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 3 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 1979-82 = 3 years = 2 +1 abiltiy to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Detroit, Texas, Southwest, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 6 24 Haku Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 1/3 = 6 Intangibles 3 Great matches 1 Length of Peak 197 = 3 years = 2 +1 abiltiy to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work "hardcore" style +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, Canda, WWF, WCW, Mexico, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 6 24 Raymond Rougeau Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 1 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 abiltiy to work heel +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 5 15 Rick Steiner Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 1/3 0/3 (+1 for belly-to-belly suplex) = 5 Intangibles 3 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 1989-94 = 5 years = 3 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work singles +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WCW, WWF, NJPW, AJPW, TNA, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 8 30 Ricky Fuyuki Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 1/3 = 5 Intangibles 3 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1988-89 = 2 years = 2 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 Variety = 6 23 Ricky Morton Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for defining the role of FIP) = 8 Intangibles 5 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 1983-93 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work singles +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick ("Richard Morton") +3 ability to get over in multple markets (Memphis, JCP, Mid-South, AWA, ECW, SMW, Japan, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 9 41 Riki Choshu Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 3/3 = 7 Intangibles 10 Great matches = 8 Length of Peak 1983-97 = 14 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to get over in multple markets (NJPW, AJPW, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 9 47 Rob Van Dam Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 0/3 = 4 Intangibles 4 Great matches = 3 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multple markets (Japan, ECW, WWE, TNA, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 7 22 Scott Steiner Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 0/3 (+1 for innovation) = 6 Intangibles 3 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 1990-94 = 4 years = 3 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work singles +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in different gimmicks ("Big Poppa Pump") +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WCW, WWF, NJPW, AJPW, TNA, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 7 31 Sean Waltman Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 3 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 1991-01 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in different gimmicks ("123 Kid", "X-Pac") +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, WCW, TNA, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 8 30 Tarzan Goto Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 1/3 1/3 = 5 Intangibles 3 Great matches 3 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work hardcore style +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Puerto Rico, AJPW, FMW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 5 20 Tatsumi Fujinami Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 = 9 Intangibles 7 Great matches 9 Length of Peak 1980-1991 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work junior style Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 10 46 The Mountie Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 2 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 abiltiy to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Jacques Rougeau") Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 6 17 The Rock Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 10 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0 +1 abiltiy to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Rocky Mavia") Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 7 28 Tiger Mask Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 0/3 (+1 for innovation) = 5 Intangibles 4 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 1981-83 = 2 years = 2 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick ("Super Tiger", "Sayama") +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (NJPW, WWF, UWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 7 25 Tito Santana Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for working undercard matches as if his life depended on it) = 8 Intangibles 4 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1982-90 = 8 years = 5 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick ("El Matador") +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Amarillo, AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 8 33 Tommy Rich Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 = 7 Intangibles 4 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 1980-87 = 7 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick ("Thomas Rich") +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, Memphis, WCW, ECW, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 5 29 Tommy Rogers Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 2 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1982-90 = 8 years = 5 +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work singles matches +3 abilty to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Southwest, Mid-South, JCP, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 5 29 Tony Garea Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 3/3 = 6 Intangibles 2 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never one of the best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work singles matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 Variety = 9 20 Tor Kamata Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 0/3 2/3 (+1 "agility for a big man") = 5 Intangibles 3 Great matches 0 Length of Peak [never one of the best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 5 18 Toru Tanaka Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 3 Great matches 0 Length of Peak [never one of the best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Florida, LA, Memphis, WWF, GCW, JCP, WCCW, Japan, Puerto Rico) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 6 19 Toshiaki Kawada Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for "opportunism" = 10 Intangibles 7 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 1989-2005 = 16 years = 9 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 1 Variety = 10 48 Triple H Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 1/3 = 4 Intangibles 3 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1998-2002 = 4 years = 3 +1 ability to work babyface [LMAO!] +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Hunter Hurst Helmsley" (blueblood variant) +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion [ROFL!] Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 5 Variety = 9 28 Tsuyoshi Kikuchi Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 2 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 1991-96 = 5 years = 3 +1 ability to work singles Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 1 Variety = 6 25 Yokozuna Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 (+1 agility for a 600lber!) = 5 Intangibles 5 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 1992-96 = 4 years = 3 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick ("Great Kokina") Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 3 Variety = 6 24

Digging back through my ratings, I found Dean. Here it is: Dean Malenko Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for being "the man of a 1,000 holds") = 7 Intangibles 0 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1989-2000 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, ECW, WCW, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 7 29 I agree that he had a wide variety of good TV matches and that he should get some credit for it, even if you accept that he had "zero" charisma, which is what I've given him. With that score he MIGHT just squeak in, but there are a lot of guys with stronger cases out there.

His offense is underrated. His character work is criminally underrated. I think Owen has a good case for a placement in the 70-100 range. He was a great wrestler. His case isn't really built on great matches, but in other areas.

Incidentally, these "re-do's" of Eaton and Windham aren't attempts to save them, they are bringing those ratings into line with all of the others in the interests of consistency. Eaton and Windham were two of the very first ratings I gave out, and I think the system has become more lenient over time, so like, y'know if I'm giving Henry some of those Raw and SD matches, Windham is getting stuff like that Regal match which I wasn't giving him before. The benchmarks for the "V category" have slackened since this thing began and guys like Eaton and Windham were getting short-changed. And no way those guys should be geting out-scored by Mick Foley or Owen Hart, just isn't right. So I fixed it. I'm much happier with Eaton and Windham in their new positions.

There are lots of workers making my list who I literally hate. Henry I'm just a bit indifferent on. He scored better than Bossman and One Man Gang, which is one of advantage of working in an era in which you're having competitive TV matches every week.

Quick Barry Windham re-do: Barry Windham Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for float-over suplex) = 10 Intangibles 3 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 82-93 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Blackjack Windham") +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (Florida, JCP, WWF, Canada, Central States, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 8 41

Quick Bobby Eaton re-do: Bobby Eaton Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 2 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 1983-92 = 9 years = 6 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work singles +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick ("Blue Bloods") +1 ability to work brawls +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Mid-South, WCW, SMW, indies, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 8 Variety = 8 41

Who? Undertaker?

Mark Henry Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 4 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 2005-13 = 8 years = 5 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Sexual Chocolate") Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 8 28

Yeah I wasn't accusing anyone of bad faith. Dean is maybe the most extreme test case of where the general perception has shifted the most since the late 90s.

Dylan 2-3 Scorpio recommendations from ECW? Another guy I really want to rank

Alright, just wanted to get a sense on if he's ranking for people. I can't recall if he will for me or not.

So are people just not rating Dean now because he's been overrated?

Another guy I really want to find the room for. Disappointed by lack of discussion for him. Again, I feel that if his career had taken place in, let's say ECW, he might have a bit more buzz about him.

I want to find a place for this guy. Convinced that if this guy had had his exact same career in WWF or WCW, he'd be making a lot more lists.

Fujiwara might be the last person I rate. And one reason for that is because I don't know what to do with him. I've really dug him on NJ set so far, and plan on watching the high end stuff today, but as some will know I really don't have time for UWF, or indeed any sort of shoot style to the point where I actually had to start skipping it on 1990 yearbook. I've really loved him as a kickass fired up babyface in 1984, who isn't afraid to get his face cut up for the cause. This was a bit of a highlight from him in the 5v5 gauntlet.