NintendoLogic

The crux of Bret's claim of drawing power is obviously his status as an international draw. Unfortunately, actual numbers seem hard to come by. It's mostly anecdotal evidence and factoids like him being voted athlete of the year by a German teenybopper magazine. Other than that, there's the Farmer list. Sure, it has issues, but Dave has cited it as an authority, so make of that what you will.

I rewatched Bock/Wahoo, and I still don't like it. In particular, I'm baffled by all the people talking about how intense it was. I thought it was incredibly sluggish. At least, it was when Wahoo was on offense, which was like 90% of the match. He looked like the world's shittiest Tenryu. I've seen Bock in Memphis, so I know he's perfectly capable of having a quality brawl. This wasn't one of them. In fact, as far as world title matches featuring an Indian who throws chops go, I didn't even think it was better than Cena/Khali.

I have my doubts about the accuracy of that statistic. I went to prowrestlinghistory.com, and from what I could tell, New Japan's only million-plus gates were from Dome shows. Choshu only headlined a handful of those. Certainly less than Hashimoto, and probably less than Inoki and Mutoh as well. And All Japan did million-dollar gates when it sold out the Budokan, so he's probably also behind Misawa. Even if the statistic is true, it seems like it would be largely dependent on outside factors like the yen-to-dollar exchange rate. I'm not disputing that Choshu was a much bigger deal in his own country or that he had a huge impact. But saying that he was a "waaaaay better draw" is greatly overstating things. For the record, I think Bret's in-ring body of work absolutely creams Choshu's. But that should come as no surprise.

I did not. I'll probably rewatch it tonight to make sure.

I was mildly surprised at the number 1 pick. I was kind of expecting a more revisionist take. I was also quite surprised to discover that I don't like pro wrestling.

I strongly doubt that. Well it's not unusual for you and I to completely disagree, but if you had Pat Paterson helping lay out main events, that were heavily promoted and going on last, I see little reason to believe a guy with his talent wouldn't have padded his resume with enough "epic" matches to get him to the level where he would at least be on the fringes of that discussion. I'm sure he would have had good matches. But I don't see him significantly bettering Steve Austin's output during that period. Adding an Austin-level run to his existing resume doesn't strike me as GOAT-caliber.

I think Kerry was more than just luggage, but I can't recall anything particularly great he did in that match. Him blowing off the hand work was annoying, as was his cartoonish bumping and selling.

Considering TNA's current state, I almost feel like we owe Vince Russo an apology.

I strongly doubt that.

Since this thread has risen from the dead, I'll weigh in on the Bret/Choshu debate. Choshu may have drawn more than Bret, but I don't buy that he was a way bigger draw. For one thing, even if you set aside the Farmer list, I'm pretty sure that Bret headlined more big shows than Choshu. He also had a much higher international profile. I suspect that at his peak, Bret was a bigger worldwide star than Choshu ever was.

The fact that it was JBL who was doing it just made it weird.

This sums up my feelings exactly. Also, I think Will's point about people's upbringing influencing their tastes is right on. Guys like Loss who grew up on JCP learned to accept the things that annoy people like me about the style. By the same token, a lot of the complaints people have about the current WWE product are things I don't give a second thought to. Also, for the record, when I talked about Flair becoming less relevant, I didn't mean any time in the near future. I was thinking more 30 or 40 years down the line.

First of all, I would submit that Plum Mariko would probably still be alive today if she had decided to become a stripper rather than a wrestler. Setting that aside, there may not be a joshi style, but I think there definitely is an AJW house style that had developed by 1992 or so. The go-go-go doesn't bother me as much as things like holds being applied and then released for no reason, transitions being too abrupt and easy, and a general disregard of long-term selling. I find those things to be pretty universal in AJW, which is why I find that a lot of matches that are pimped as being not typical joshi are in the end very much typical joshi. I've noticed those elements in other promotions as well, but I haven't seen enough non-AJW joshi to make a definitive statement. However, as noted in the podcast, 1991 was kind of a transition year, which means that there are plenty of exceptions. I would suggest Takako Inoue vs. Mariko Yoshida from August 18, which I don't think was on the yearbook, as another example of an atypical joshi match.

Kent State would be perfect for this.

It was a flash pin from behind after a major distraction. Then he proceeded to destroy said manager. Calm down. I have no plans to quit watching wrestling, but "guy gets flash pin then gets destroyed" really needs to go away. It makes both guys look like chumps. Anyway, I hope you guys aren't wedded to your Cena injury fantasy booking scenarios. Per Dave, Cena is expected to wrestle on all the upcoming PPVs and there are no plans to do an injury angle at HIAC.

So I decided to watch Tanahashi/Suzuki from KOPW and Okada/Tanahashi from Invasion Attack in succession. I can see how someone can think the first match is great. I can also see how someone can think the second match is terrible. But for the life of me, I have no idea how someone can think both.

I'm finding that the more of Terry I see, the less I like him. When he keeps his goofiness in check, he's great. But when he doesn't, I find him intolerable.

But Vince does like to create legit heat between workers. I don't think Cena's initial comments were an attempt to start an angle so much as Vince venting.

Rock/Austin at WM15 was terrible.

Whatever, fuck escape rule cage matches.

OLE~! I predict that El Torito will be more over than 90% of the roster in a month's time.

I can't think of too many series (as in more than two) in recent years that have consistently produced quality matches. Okada/Tanahashi isn't a slam dunk or anything, but I think it's in the conversation.

It's on Dailymotion. HBK/Jarrett from IYH 2 probably also warrants mention.

Mike Graham, believe it or not. Eddie used him as a locker room policeman in Florida. Let's also not forget Paul Orndorff, the man who took down Vader with one arm.

I prefer the Savage/Steamboat MLG match from 2/15/87.