Ricky Jackson

Either way, Sting has had plenty of time for his case to have been made.

Hogan turning heel after fifteen years as the biggest babyface ever (and "ever" means "ever" ) was absolutely what made the angle The Angle. Just like Andre turning heel in 87 made it The Angle for that time period. The build was so long coming it seemed like Hogan, like Andre before him, would never turn. Sting turning on WCW and joining WWF guys would have made no sense really. Hogan as the third Outsider, still the icon of the WWF even two years into his WCW run, was the perfect touch.

A Hall of Fame is supposed to honour the Best of the Best, period. Honestly, Sting shouldn't even be on the ballot anymore. I know the rule is if you maintain 10% of the vote you stay on, but how many years has Sting been on the ballot now? I have no idea, but if in the most extreme case he has been on since the late-90s and still hasn't been voted in after all these years, indeed, that his HoF case is based entirely on what he did prior to the 21st century, then the only way he is ever going to get in is as a "Well, we need to induct somebody this year, but all of the best candidates are already in, so we'll lower our standards and let him in this time" induction, and that would just make the HoF pointless. In baseball, if you are on the ballot for, I think, seven years and are not voted in, you are removed as a candidate. Something similar should apply to the WON HoF. If someone is truly one of the Best of the Best they will be voted in within seven years, and usually in much less time. Yes, many wrestlers are in the HoF who are, depending on your viewpoint, not the Best of the Best, as has been discussed thoroughly (usually, these controversial inductees are guys who were perceived by certain smart fans as being superworkers--Angle, Michaels, etc). Many wrestlers from the past were overlooked for much longer than seven years who were deserving of induction (eg. Hans Schmidt), but due to the fact their careers ended long ago and serious research must be made by committed fans to uncover the numbers, this is understandable. Sting is a modern star, not a name from the distant past whose career is unfamiliar to most wrestling fans. If he was one of the Best of the Best, his induction should have occurred at least ten years ago. He has not been overlooked. The majority of voters have looked at his career a million times over and have said "No" year in year out. I think it's time to move on.

Yep, Tito was the first name that came to mind when I saw this thread. I think at some point in the Tito thread I even wrote he was the dictionary definition of a mid-card babyface.

Couldn't find anything, but this pops up pretty quick when you search: Admit it Jerry, DiBiase isn't your greatest wrestling obsession, solving this mystery is. Oh, and then there was this: Case closed.

I was actually thinking wrestling being featured in a mainstream (well, close enough) movie was the unusual context, not Dangerfield's character.

In Natural Born Killers there is a scene where Rodney Dangerfield's character is watching a WWF show with Tatanka wrestling somebody and he screams "Kill the Fuckin' Indian!" at the TV. Chief Jay Strongbow and Gorilla Monsoon were referenced in a Stephen King book but I can't remember which one.

I know there are people that are high on him today, and I thought he was pretty good 4-5 years ago, but Randy Orton shouldn't come within 100 miles of the WON HoF.

Well, we really don't talk about them as much as we talk about other wrestlers...or maybe we do, I don't know, I tend to focus mostly on pre-Attitude Era stuff. 20. Rock 55 29. Austin 42 Because this list was done in 2009, the Rock would maybe be ranked higher today, I'm not sure.

Looking at the various top ten lists over the years, a lot of misleading conclusions can be read from them regarding who the actual top draws were in any given year/all-time. For example, Kamala ranks #4 in 87 because of his run against a guy, Hogan, who was in the middle of an historic run as a draw. Flair ranks #2 for 95 based almost solely on all the bonus points he received for headlining against Inoki (#3 for 95) at a show that "drew" 170,000, or whatever the number was, in North Korea. Kane is ranked so high because he main evented against all-time great draws during a period (98-01) that is generally considered the hottest ever for wrestling. Was Bossman (12 pts) really as big an all time draw as Monsoon, Pat Patterson, or Mad Dog Vachon (also 12 pts), or bigger than the Fabulous Kangaroos, El Hijo del Santo (11 points) and Bearcat Wright (10 pts), let alone Ted, JYD, and Watts? One has to be careful how they interpret the data for certain wrestlers.

No Ted, no JYD, and perhaps most surprisingly, no Bill Watts, which reveals the heavy Northeast bias. The only year Ted cracked a top ten was #5 in 88. For the record, Patera hit the top ten in 77 (#5), 80 (#4), and 82 (tied for 10th). Lawler hit #3 in 74, #6 in 75, #8 in 76, and tied for #3 in 77.

I'm looking at the top draws issue of the WON right now (8/5 2009) and Meltzer acknowledges the less than perfect nature of the 10k criteria right away: Highlights from the issue regarding some points already discussed in this thread: He points out how prior to the 70s there were very few 10k arenas in North America or internationally. Here is what he had to say about several territories outside of the huge metro areas and the venues they ran during the 70s and into the 80s: Florida Georgia Memphis Carolinas Meltzer then goes on to state: and Meltzer, based on Farmer's research, ranks the top draws of all time based on a formula that gives points based on 1) top ten per year ranking (most 10k shows headlined in a year, 10 points for number 1, 9 points for number 2, etc, with a bonus point for drawing 20k, 30k, etc., 2) ten points for having a "dominant year" (defined by someone who drew double the number of big gates than the number 2 wrestler), and 3) a five point bonus for "breaking the record for most biggest gates drawn" (typical awkward Meltzer phrasing). Based on this, here is the top ten of all time: 1. Jim Londos 250 2. Bruno Sammartino 196 3. Lou Thesz 172 4. Bill Longson 159 5. Hulk Hogan 154 6. Strangler Lewis 149 7. Ric Flair 126 8. Buddy Rogers 122 (back-to-back Nature Boys) 9. Joe Stecher 99 10. Dick the Bruiser 81 Some notes regarding the ranking of wrestlers discussed in this thread/discussed often on this board: 11. The Sheik 80 13. Bob Backlund 73 14. Andre the Giant 73 15. HHH 72 26. Harley Race 43 29. Antonio Inoki 42 31. Randy Savage 40 47. Shawn Michaels 30 47. Dusty Rhodes 30 53. Bret Hart 28 55. Pedro Morales 27 56. Kane 26 56. Jerry Lawler 26 67. Kurt Angle 24 72. Ivan Koloff 23 77. Sgt. Slaughter 22 78. John Cena 21 (remember this list was done in 09, so Cena would be ranked higher today) 78. Ultimate Warrior 21 92. Nick Bockwinkel 17 100. Chris Jericho 14 100. Ken Patera 14 120. Randy Orton 11 124. Lex Luger 10 No Sting anywhere on the list is somewhat surprising. Anyway, I've been working on this for long enough. Maybe I'll add more later. Hopefully this has been food for thought.

Meltzer did a top draws of all time issue a few years back. The criteria was most shows headlined which drew 10,000 or more. Flair was number 2 for the 80s. Not sure about the rest of the top ten, but I could check it out later.

The Dusty Rhodes vs Superstar Graham matches from MSG (9/26 1977 and a Texas Death Match on 10/24 1977) are not exactly "great", especially compared to a lot of the other matches already thrown out, but in terms of capturing a big mega-clash between two of the top stars of the era at one of the top arenas for wrestling, they should be seen at least once. The crowd heat is off the charts, and it really showcases just how hot Rhodes was as a babyface in the 70s. There are also several Sammartino matches from the 70s out there that are similar--not masterpieces, but fun to watch for the heat and often for the heel he is matched up with (try the Sammartino vs Arion Greek Death Match from 4/14 1975). Backlund matches too, of course, as have been mentioned. And a young Vince on commentary for these matches adds to their appeal.

I guess they feel he doesn't need protecting because he's so over, or something. Really, they haven't protected their top stars in the traditional way since the mid-90s. Austin, the Rock and Undertaker lost way more than Hogan, Warrior or Savage. Even Hart, Diesel and Michaels were protected better. HHH is the exception I guess, but even he has jobbed more than the stars of the past, especially in recent years.

I'm so out of the WWE loop that I didn't realize Survivor Series is tonight until a couple minutes ago. Looking at the card, I wouldn't mind seeing the top matches.

I just saw an opening where I could flex a little of my historical knowledge. Continue with the Cena debate. (For the record, I think it is obvious the WWE has revolved around Cena for 7 years and I really don't see how he has been under-utilized. Often poorly booked, yes, but not held back at all)

The 187 sellouts for Sammartino at MSG (or other such really high numbers I've seen thrown around) is, as far as I know, an exaggeration. I think the real number is closer to 45 or so, basically the same as Backlund or slightly less. Sammartino may have main evented 187 MSG cards in total, but that sounds high, even though it was over a twenty year period. Sammartino was a super hot draw of course, but you have to consider things like the fact that he stepped down as the main drawing card from 71-73 (Morales) and from 77-80 (Graham and Backlund, before returning for a last hurrah against Larry Z), and that the 65-68 period was relatively cold for NYC, with no TV in the area for a few years and very few sellouts, etc. Edit: Using Cawthon's site, I counted 125 main events for Bruno at MSG between 63-80, with about a dozen or so possible others where he wrestled on a card during Morales and Backlund's runs and I'm not sure what the pushed main event was. I know he also headlined cards during 60-62, usually as Argentina Rocca's partner, that are not listed on Cawthon's site. Anyway, even when taking all that into consideration, there is no way Bruno headlined 187 MSG shows, let alone sold them all out, as a look at the attendance figures shows.

Will FLIK be brought down by tigerpride's devious attempts to suppress his rebellious spelling of whear and thear? Find out on the next episode of PWO Main Event Wrestling!

Take it to your grave, FLIK.

I second that request.

The clippings include ads for live shows in LA, Detroit (drew 4,138 to the Olympia, apparently more than a closed-circuit of a Forman/Frazier fight a few months prior) and Toledo in addition to the ones I already mentioned. The weird part is the Detroit and Toledo shows have virtually the same live card advertised. No St. Louis, but I may have missed something/I'm sure there were others not included in the clippings.

After looking at the first few clippings from the time of the match it is funny/sad to see Inoki's name misspelled so many times in the ads from the US newspapers--"Inoke", "Inoko". Very interesting co-promotions going on in some areas--in Houston at the Astrodome you could watch an Astros/Reds ballgame and then stick around for the closed circuit broadcast ("On 6 Giant Screens") of Ali/Inoki and Andre/Wepner.

Wow, that is freaking awesome JNLister. Thanks man. Shooters is on my must read list. I might even treat myself to a copy this weekend.

I think that is the shoot reason as well. Muraco was known during his career for wrestling for a while, then heading to Hawaii or wherever, where his heart truly was, only to return to wrestling after burning through all his cash.