Ricky Jackson

Here's my two cents on a subject that has been beyond discussed to death... I think "Hart leaving with the belt" has been a misconception over the years. I don't think Hart would have ever left the WWF with the belt and appeared on Nitro with it. If the screwjob had never happened, there was no reason for Bret (who respected Vince, the WWF, and the opportunity he had been granted to advance to the main event/big money spot over the years) to not drop the belt; maybe not to Shawn at SS, yes, but I have no doubt he would have put somebody over somewhere before he left. The problem, as Vince and others saw it, and the reason they believed it was imperative the switch go down in Montreal, was Bischoff would announce on the Monday after SS that WCW had signed the reigning WWF champ, delivering yet another blow to the credibility of a company that was still losing the War by substantial margin (although gaining momentum). I also think Vince's ego was bruised by not being able to get Bret to agree to his plans and dictate the title switch, and for a control freak like him (and during a very stressful time) this may have been too much to stomach. It was a complex and unique situation, with a relatively simple thing like a title switch almost becoming a metaphor/battleground for the larger real life conflicts between Bret and Shawn and Vince and Eric. And we will never stop talking about it...

I agree Edge is not a Hall of Fame guy, at least when judging him against the bar that was set by the original inductees. I think most on this board are in agreement that Meltzer's hall has been bastardized a bit in the last few years. For me, the most glaring inductions over this time are Angle (waaaay too soon) and Jericho (ditto). And contrary to Meltzer's recent comment on Sting, Big Daddy, etc., I think it's safe to say that HHH is in because of his lengthy push more than anything else (I just don't see his work, promo's, and charisma being hall of fame calibre. Yes, he was/is a draw. But so were Ivan Koloff, Schmidt, Monsoon to a degree, etc. I know, "different era's" and all that.) I think it is also safe to say Angle and Jericho are in largely because, at the time of the vote, both were either being pushed hard or had been recently pushed hard, and had recently been involved in highly regarded programs and matches. I think this is the main flaw of the current voting process: voters being swayed by a current performers ongoing (or very recent) work instead of evaluating a wrestler's body of work from the distance of time, which would remove a lot of the emotional connection that may prevent objective assesssment (as much as is ever possible, anyway). Of course there are wrestler's who have such impressive resumes that "waiting for the sake of waiting" is unnecessary, like Hogan, Flair, Austin, etc. I would argue that Cena falls into this category. Angle and Jericho, I believe, do not. Besides arguments regarding his overall worth as a performer, Edge has going for him the fact that he is modern, was pushed hard and involved in countless high profile main events, and was involved in more **** PPV matches than anyone else (Meltzer's argument, but one that will likely sway many voters). Perhaps most importantly, he will get many "sympathy votes" because of his career recently coming to an abrupt end. Personally I would rate Jericho as a better candidate than Edge. Angle as well, but it's close. The fact is, due to the nature of the voting process, modern guys with borderline credentials will likely always get the benefit of the doubt and have a greater chance of getting in than a 50s-70s star with borderline (but more impressive) credentials.

Meltzer: "He turned himself face with one sentence as the place went wild." "That was the best money promo in a long time" And they've booked a loser leaves UFC match. MMA = Pro Wrestling.

The last decade for me is a little fuzzy. I'm far more knowledgable when it comes to the 80s and 90s. I missed most of the 2001-05 period completely, have seen relatively little ROH, next to nothing of the international scene, and actually haven't seen a lot of the most highly regarded WWE stuff. That said, my top three, at least as far as those who entertained me the most, would probably be Michaels, Cena and Mysterio.

Thinking about the IC title kinda makes me sad, considering all the great wrestlers, matches and feuds associated with it in the 80s and 90s, and the fact it (like most WWF/WCW titles) was more or less rendered meaningless around 1999 or so. A pretty big chunk of my favorite childhood wrestling memories revolve around the old IC title scene. There are many other factors, but hot-shot booking of title changes to the point where they meant absolutely nothing was one of the main reasons for the decline of my wrestling fandom at the end of the 90s. I'm sure this is a sentiment echoed by many around here. But enough wistfulness. As far as Murdoch/Adonis go, I feel they are a really unique team in WWF history, almost an NWA type combo, especially with Murdoch being involved. They are especially unique when looking at the 70s/early-mid 80s heel WWF tag champs, which were often freak show/monster types, like the Executioners, Samoans and Moondogs, or Japanese/foreign menace teams, often featuring the ubiquitous Fuji. I wonder if it was perhaps because of George Scott's (an NWA guy) booking that a team like Murdoch/Adonis "slipped though the cracks" so to speak. Just a guess.

Regarding that Wrestling Classics list of draws, Buddy Rogers' number for the 60's is simply amazing considering, other than a brief comback or two, he was essentially done in the ring by 1963. He must have been just on fire from 1960-63. And now back to our regularly scheduled program...

Honestly, I really do hope something like this is the logic behind it all. It's relatively simple and makes more sense than some convoluted conspiracy swerve type thing. That said, I don't think this is how those doing the booking have envisioned the angle.

I had no idea Santana and Martel teamed in AWA. This was early-80s? How long did it last?

All I know is HHH better fix this damn mess before the Muppets show up on Halloween. You can't have them appear in an unsafe work environment like Raw. It's just another potential lawsuit waiting to happen.

I feel validated that kayfabe CM Punk agrees with my assessment of last night's angle.

I know it went 60 and was bloody, but I'm only aware of the existence of a few clips of the match that were originally shown on 24/7 (high quality footage though) and not the full match. The clips are nothing special as far as making it seem like a great match or anything. I think the consensus from those who saw it live is that it was raining and the ring was soaked, which helped make it difficult to work. Besides the conditions, apparently neither Race or Graham had a particularly great night in the ring either. As far as Graham goes, yeah he was pretty limited, but the nuclear heat his matches could command (especially his 70s MSG stuff) puts him far ahead of Jesse in my book.

This reminds me of those old Wrestling Superstars magazine "Dream Match" articles (could you get those in the UK Jerry?). Sometimes they were quite weird (Andre's "long-lost" twin brother winning a freak show battle royal for example), but at the time I loved them. IIRC they did a dream tag team tournament in a 1990 issue with random draw rules (the Harts fluked out and stayed together, and the RnR's and Midnights switched partners). Looking at the Starrcade 90 card (BTW not WCW's finest hour), the teams are a little wacky, and my home country's reps are utterly disgraceful (anyone care to enlighten me on who Troy Montour and Danny Johnson were???? They're so obscure they don't even have friggen wikipedia pages). Anyway, in the spirit of Wrestling Superstars, here's my "dream" tag tourney from 1990: USA: Warrior and Sting ("reunited and it feels so gooooood") Canada: How's Piper and Abby for a crazy ass combo. Sure they weren't kayfabe Canadians, but this is my fantasy, so deal with it! UK: Um, was Big Daddy still working in 1990? Adams and Smiley is actually a pretty good pick. But I'm going with another odd couple: DK and Adrian Street baby! Russia: Another WWF/WCW dream team: Nikita Koloff and Nikolai Volkoff Japan: Have to go with the B-I Cannon one last time. Mexico: El Canek and Mil Mascaras (did they ever team in real life?) Plus wrestlers from two other countries that I can't think of right now, but it doesn't matter because they were eliminated in fictitious first round matches. The Winners: I'm booking a Japan/Canada final. It would be full of blood and the heat would be off the charts. The B-I Cannon go over as Piper does a rare pinfall job. Baba and Inoki embrace and celebrate in mid-ring, finally burying the hatchet, and agreeing to face each other in a one-time-only "scientific" match at the Tokyo Dome on New Years Day 1991. And Bill Apter and Matt Brock declare the night the greatest in the history of our great sport (settling that argument once and for all).

Yeah, I know it isn't cool to like DK anymore, especially his Tiger Mask stuff, but he was one of my childhood favorites and I still dig most of his pre-back injury work. Honestly, I've seen very little of his Portland run. Early-80s Slaughter has become one of my favorites in recent years. Need to really dive into Bockwinkel and watch some of his lesser known stuff someday. Need to REALLY dive into Rose someday. What I've seen of his early stuff has been one of the great revelations of the last few years for me.

Savage is my pick. I have no problem with any of the other names, haven't seen much from a lot of guys (Rose, Morton, Rogers, Mantell, Eaton, Murdoch), and would throw in Dynamite Kid (not enough great stuff in USA?).

Check the new comments thread for my take on it. (and no, I'm not secretly Todd Martin) I should have put it here but I totally forgot about this thread.

Don't get a swell head about it John, but damn your Chicago/Spears/Hogan/Cher/Edge/Warrior/Sting argument is a thing of beauty.

I think I'll always rate their Mania match higher, with the tie-breakers being the perfectly executed double-turn aspect, a bit better storytelling ("he didn't quit, he passed out from blood loss!"), and the fact it was the culmination of several months of build up. Still, the SS match is excellent and maybe a better example of Bret's skills (and Austin's) as a worker in that the two of them were wrestling each other for the first time and had yet to build up a rhythm in the ring, and they were still able to have an all-time classic match. Just an awesome feud that makes me miss the old days every time I think about it.

Well, they've sure been booking the Waffle House cook in a lot of PPV main events recently. So obviously they see him as something more than just a "technical" wrestler or somebody they need to force-feed to 90% of their fans. As for Steamboat, as far as I know he was a pretty decent draw between 1977 and 1984, at least in the Carolinas and Toronto, and not always because he was booked against Flair. Post-1984 (really, when wrestling history begins according to WWE), yeah, he was not a huge draw when given the main event spot. But he wasn't booked on top very often, and other than a house show run with Savage (maybe a B show run with Roberts?), not at all while in WWF. I think the weirdest part is this was in WWE magazine. I haven't read an issue in years. Do they do a lot of non-kayfabe stuff these days?

I'm not sure, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head. But speaking of random Hogan jobs, he was "defeated" by Mike Awesome on the 5/1 2000 Nitro and by Vampiro on the 5/22 2000 Nitro (according to Cawthon's site). I don't remember these at all. I'm assuming they weren't clean jobs.

Maybe this was a bone Hogan tossed as a way to soothe some feelings before he tore through the whole heel roster at that Uncensored PPV.

Ah, gotcha, been a since I watched it, should prob give that 1 re-watch then since I remember very little about the Fall Brawl match. 1 last moment to bring up just since we're on the subject. The time Arn beat Hogan 2 weeks in a row in early 96 is up thear with like the greatest things ever too, especially the 1st week since the match was real good and the clebration afterwards is priceless This happened? Clean?

Bret apparently made Tom Magee look like a million bucks. End of discussion.

Here's a feel good story featuring a wrestler in the mainstream media for a change: Ray Rougeau=Hero

Although his "I hate modern wrestling" shtick is often tiresome, I do get a kick out of Bryan's gleefully anti-WWE F4W headlines. This weeks gem: "Summerslam buyrate tanks"

Shame on me for forgetting the (British) Invasion angle of '64. It helped make the boys the most successful babyfaces ever. Even Lennon's "Bigger than Jesus" promo (which turned him heel in the South) couldn't stop them.