Yo-Yo's Roomie

But Ryback was knocking around for ages, and had the fairly high profile Nexus run before being repackaged. I'm talking about coming in from a cold start. Are we going back to Brock?

I dunno. Certainly with the Mongo feud when he was still a heel that could be said to be true (though they still put him over huge on commentary), but by the time he's wrestling Saturn (on two separate ppvs) it's clear they realise what they have with him. Of course, we all know that at this point ppvs weren't as special as they could and should have been in WCW, but I was still suprised with how Goldberg was used on them. Saturn wasn't the guy to be having semi-competitive squashes with him, in my opinion, and really the fans just wanted to see him mow through guys anyway. Another thing that stood out though, was just how meteoric his rise was. He kinda knocks around doing not much for a couple of months, but then suddenly the rocket boosters were strapped on. What would be comparable pushes for a guy going from literally nothing to being one of the top two or three guys in the industry?

I'm just at the beginning of Goldberg's run in my WCW ppv watching now (mid-way through '98), and so far what strikes me is what a poor job they did of protecting him on the big shows, in terms of choice of opponent. Throwing him out there against McMichael and Perry Saturn really didn't serve him too well this early in his career. Of course, it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. I just thought it was odd.

Funny, because I think Shawn's mic work around that time was some of the most embarrassing stuff I've ever seen on a major wrestling programme. He totally came off to me as a jumped-up teenager holding court with his hangers on by making little inside references and going off script. Totally self-indulgent. Bret's homophobic remarks were an admitted low (though trumped by Triple H eagerly comandeering the mic to offer the smug-faced retort, "I ain't no queer"), but generally his mic work was top-notch during that run. A case of one man's trash is another man's treasure, I suppose.

Add me to the Cherry fan club. Adam Bomb too, for that matter. I'm the guy that started a Maxx Payne thread here, so I guess that's my best answer to this question. I like Hercules a lot too.

I have mainly just been using DVDVR for the movie projects for a while now (the gimmickry and trolling of the main board has become increasingly tiresome of late). I saw this recent board crash as a way to watch a couple more things for the 90s poll, so hopefully they get back up and running and things can resume as before.

Flair/Sting from the first Clash is a pretty obvious one. Eddy/Rey Halloween Havoc on a lower level. I don't remember dates, but there's one Jumbo/Misawa match that I think belongs too.

Marty had two of my favourite matches from that weird early-mid-90s period in WWF: the best 2/3 with Doink, and the tag title change w/Kid against the Quebecers. I have no doubt that Marty was a better worker than Shawn at least into 1994 (though, to be fair, he was also in a much more familiar role). I think maybe we underestimate just how popular the Rockers were, and how fondly remembered they are (no doubt being a part of Shawn's legacy helps with that), and that probably plays a big part in Marty's enduring ability to get a reaction. I just hope that he doesn't end up being remembered as a joke, what with Miz cutting promos about how John Morrison was the 'Marty' of their team, and Hawkins and Ryder wearing those stupid "I'm Shawn, he's Marty" shirts.

Where is Mark fucking Henry?

I really like the Haku/Hercules match from WM5, as far as Haku singles matches go. It might not be a great match, but it's laid out really well, and both guys give good performances. I think Bossman is quite a bit better than Haku though.

I love Vader, but I always felt he bumped too much, and let too many guys throw him around. There's no way the likes of Owen Hart should be slamming him, in a pretty meaningless match to boot.

When did Flair ever have a MOTYC with Miz?

Nobody's saying that all Flair was is a bitch or a fool, but I think it's patently obvious that those are roles he undertook quite often during the course of a match.

Well, I'm watching, and I think he's a coward and a fool, and that's part of the appeal. I mean, come on, seriously? Yeah, we also know Flair is good, we also know from what the commentators tell us that he's the 'dirtiest player in the game', yada yada yada, but let's not pretend he isn't going in there and making a fool of himself frequently.

I'd define "playing the bitch" as working in a way that makes oneself appear to be a coward or a fool. When Flair gets thrown off the top, it isn't just Flair giving his opponent some offence/making his opponent look good. He performs the spot in a way that makes himself look foolish, in the way he climbs up the turnbuckle, and in the timing of the spot in the match, usually when the babyface is already in the midst of a comeback. Ditto for the 'run into a clothesline after corner bump' spot. The Flair flop doesn't make you think his opponent must be really impressive to have made him fall down like that. It makes you think Flair is a fool. Another spot that comes to mind when I think of Flair playing the bitch is his reaction when Luger or Sting or whoever would flex in his face. It goes beyond just begging off (and really just begging off from another man's posedown is inordinately cowardly), and crosses over into the ridiculous. Lots of heels do bitching, but I think it has become so associated with Flair just because he had so many signature 'playing the bitch' spots.

eh... Mania 20 Batista/Flair/Orton v Rock/Foley Mania 21 HHH v Batista Mania 23 Undertaker v Batista Mania 24 Umaga v Batista Mania 25 Cena v Batista That's pretty much all wheat no chaff. None of these do a ton for me, but everyone other than 24 is something that I've seen people argue as candidate for the MOTN. At 24 he was the odd man out, so they threw together a quick Raw Vs Smackdown angle to give the match a bit of purpose. I think it was basically filler. Did the feud even extend beyond that one match?

Batista Vs Umaga was pretty forgettable.

I thought this was a great match. Slaughter works his ass off. Best Hulk Up ever too.

Jeez, why wouldn't Hogan just pay the guy what he owes him? Tight fucker. Anyway, Vince McMahon, because I believe he's capable of anything.

Since I watched all the Wrestlemanias, and ranked every single match not that long ago (about a year ago, I think), I'll go through and give my thoughts on who I think are the main contenders. Bret Hart The matches: Battle royal (WM2, ranked #200) - Bret made it to the end of this, but there isn't really anything worth noting in his performance. Hart Foundation/Danny Davis Vs British Bulldogs/Tito Santana (WM3, #73) - this is reasonably fun, but it's mostly due to the story of Davis getting his ass kicked. Nothing Bret did stood out, and it was actually Tito who I thought looked the best in this. Battle royal (WM4, #205) - well, the only good part of this was the interaction between Bret and Bad News Brown at the end, but this isn't really any mark in Bret's favour. Hart Foundation Vs Rhythm and Blues (WM5, #145) - this is forgettable, and the only thing I noted was that I liked the Anvil's hot tag work. Hart Foundation Vs Bolsheviks (WM6, #237) - this is a seconds-long squash. Bret looked cool counting along with the referee for the pinfall though. Hart Foundation Vs Nasty Boys (WM7, #51) - here we go, this is a good match. I will note that it isn't as good as the Rockers' match from the same show though, which is a point in Shawn's favour. Bret is good as the fip. Bret Hart Vs Roddy Piper (WM8, #5) - Bret's first great WM match, and a really great storytelling match. This is my match of the night for WM8. Bret Hart Vs Yokozuna (WM9, #54) - I thought Bret and Yoko always had good chemistry, and I don't remember seeing a bad match between them. I really liked that Bret would utilise a different moveset when he was in the ring with big men, using moves like the second rope bulldog and running dropkick. His offence looks good here, and there's a really good spot where Bret ties Yoko's foot in the ropes in order to take him off his feet. I think this is a better match than Shawn/Tatanka from the same show. Bret Hart Vs Owen Hart (WM10, #2) - another great match. Bret's selling is really good here, and this match has a bit of everything. This is really a showcase for Owen, and Bret is really giving to get Owen's push going (as you'd hope he would be). My match of the night, though I don't blame anyone for preferring the ladder match. Bret Hart Vs Yokozuna (WM10, #61) - Bret comes back to work another decent match with Yoko. A bit different to the previous year's match, as both men are selling their efforts from earlier in the night. I like how Bret just tries to go through Yoko here, as if he doesn't really have the energy to use his speed. A go down swinging mentality. Bret Hart Vs Bob Backlund (WM11, #158) - this sucks. Actually, Piper ruins this with his comically bad ref job, but as a feud-ender, this really had no heat and no sense of hatred between the participants. Bret Hart Vs Shawn Michaels (WM12, #9) - people call this boring, but I actually think they do a good job of peppering in the big spots to keep things interesting. I like that they both get to bust out some different offence too. Bret Hart Vs Steve Austin (WM13, #1) - one of the best WWF matches ever, and this is really just a great example of two top-class workers who had terrific chemistry. Bret Hart Vs Vince McMahon (WM26, #194) - really poorly laid out, which is odd for a Bret match. This really exposed Bret, which is unfortunate. The case for Bret: four top 10 matches, including the top 2, and four MOTNs. Backed up by 4 other matches in the 'good' range. The case against Bret: failed to make an impact at any of his earlier appearances (thought he didn't have the best opportunities), and has that one big failure with Backlund (hard to hold the Vince match against him). Shawn Michaels The matches: The Rockers Vs The Twin Towers (WM5, #56) - this is a really good speed vs power type match, with both teams looking good. The Rockers Vs The Orient Express (WM6, #179) - this is odd, because it seems like these two teams have no chemistry at all, when we know they had very good matches against one another on other occasions. Not even the best tag match on the show. The Rockers Vs Barbarian/Haku (WM7, #24) - this is great, however, and I have this as the best straight tag match in WM history. All four guys looked good in this one. Shawn Michaels Vs El Matador (WM8, #103) - this is okay, but I like Tito in it more than I like Shawn. I think it took Shawn about a year to really figure out how to be a good heel. Shawn Michaels Vs Tatanka (WM9, #119) - another okay bout, but this probably went too long for a Tatanka match. There are a few bits of awkward-looking stuff, but this was a decent Shawn performance. Shawn Michaels Vs Razor Ramon (WM10, #11) - Shawn's first great WM match, and this is a great performance from Shawn in particular, as he takes the big bumps and performs the big spots needed to make the match/gimmick work. Shawn Michaels Vs Diesel (WM11, #66) - this is another very good Shawn display, as he brings big bumps and big offence like the splash to the floor to make his buddy look good. Shawn Michaels Vs Bret Hart (WM12, #9) - see above. Shawn Michaels Vs Steve Austin (WM14, #41) - Shawn really does his damnedest to put Austin over despite obviously being in a lot of pain. It's to his credit that I probably wouldn't notice if I didn't know. Shawn Michaels Vs Chris Jericho (WM19, #44) - I think this is a good match, but that that is almost entirely down to Jericho, which I'll talk about more when doing the Jericho run-through. Shawn is a detriment if anything with his horrible no-selling of Jericho's back work. Shawn Michaels Vs Triple H Vs Chris Benoit (WM20, #34) - Shawn shouldn't have been in this match, and he actively drags it down whenever he's in the ring with his crappy offence, crappy selling, and just general crappiness. Shawn Michaels Vs Kurt Angle (WM21, #35) - yeah, I thought this was good, which goes against pretty much all my instincts. I actually prefer Angle in this, as he just comes across way tougher and more believable, and Shawn's selling gets a little over-dramatic. Shawn Michaels Vs Vince McMahon (WM22, #190) - god, this is obnoxious as hell, with Shawn fighting off half the roster before destroying Vince. Even the big spot with the ladder takes an age to set up, and isn't that impressive. Vince/Hogan was way more fun than this, not to mention Vince/Shane. Shawn Michaels Vs John Cena (WM23, #165) - I know some people like this a lot, but to me it's the two biggest perpetrators of the "action movie montage" selling that I detest (by which I mean it's all big, overly-dramatic slow-mo emoting) trying to outdo one another. There are aspects of this I liked, like how they built up to Cena's first punch, and the piledriver on the steps. I also thought Shawn's leg work looked pretty brutal (not that it meant anything, of course). It wasn't enough though. Shawn Michaels Vs Ric Flair (WM24, #36) - some of Shawn's execution is pretty bad here, but he's clearly working his ass off to give Flair the send-off he deserves, which I respect. The match tells a good story, with Flair going into his bag of tricks to be the Nature Boy one last time, and Shawn being conflicted about ending his hero's career (the spot where Shawn pulls up from delivering Sweet Chin Music, only for Flair to lock on the figure four is really good). "I'm sorry. I love you" is just ugh. Shawn Michaels Vs The Undertaker (WM25, #60) - I think this is a very good match, but not a great one. There's lot of drama, but digging deeper, the work doesn't really stand out as being all that great. Shawn goes a bit OTT with the selling again, whereas Taker's is generally strong. Good finish. Shawn Michaels Vs The Undertaker (WM26, #7) - now this is more like it. Shawn reins in his more annoying tendencies, and the match is much more focused than the trading big moves-style of the 25 match. The finish is all-time great too. The case for Shawn: lots of good matches, including 2 in the top 10, and, I think, 3 MOTNs. Maybe more good matches than anyone else at Mania. The case against Shawn: some really poor individual performances, which I don't know that the WMGOAT should have. Randy Savage The matches: Randy Savage Vs George Steele (WM2, #228) - Savage basically has to work around Steele here, and he manages to create a few entertaining spots, but that's about it. Randy Savage Vs Ricky Steamboat (WM3, #13) - this is obviously really good, and I can't fault the work, but there are bits of it that I don't like, like Steele interfering, and the fact that Savage basically has the match won a couple of times before the finish. Nitpicky things I guess, but trying to explain why it's so low compared to the general opinion of the match. Randy Savage Vs Butch Reed (WM4, #149) - nothing really to this, and it's short. Randy Savage Vs Greg Valentine (WM4, #128) - these are running together for me to be honest. This was pretty solid though, but again short. Randy Savage Vs One Man Gang (WM4, #242) - this pretty much sucks. Really these matches are just part of a bigger story, in which Savage has to overcome the odds in order to become champion. As standalone matches, they aren't really worth anything. Randy Savage Vs Ted Dibiase (WM4, #52) - easily the best match of the night, even though the story isn't brought to a totally satisfying conclusion (with Hogan's involvement taking some shine off Savage's achievement). A good night's work for Savage. Randy Savage Vs Hulk Hogan (WM5, #10) - a great heel performance from Savage. Everytime he gets ahead in the match, it's through skullduggery, like going after Hogan's cut eye, or choking Hogan behind the ref's back. He is really at the heart of everything that works in this match. Randy Savage/Sensational Sherri Vs Dusty Rhodes/Sapphire (WM6, #173) - he's at the heart of everything good about this match, too, but not even he can save this from sucking. Randy Savage Vs Ultimate Warrior (WM7, #3) - really amazing match and Savage performance (and Warrior is good, too). Randy Savage Vs Ric Flair (WM8, #6) - Savage's selling is really good in this, even though his offence is a little lukewarm. Randy Savage Vs Crush (WM10, #98) - this is short and sweet, with a creative finish. The case for Savage: really stood out on those early shows, with the MOTN at 3,4,5,7 and nearly at 8 too. The case against Savage: a shorter WM career than most of the other contenders. Steve Austin The matches: Steve Austin Vs Savio Vega (WM12, #68) - this is a good start for Austin, as he looks really good in the heat segment, and the brawling is good here. Steve Austin Vs Bret Hart (WM13, #1) - see above. Steve Austin Vs Shawn Michaels (WM14, #41) - see above. Steve Austin Vs The Rock (WM15, #94) - this is really a booking success, as a lot of the actual work between the two isn't great, with some clumsy brawling standing out. The weakest of their trilogy. Steve Austin Vs The Rock (WM17, #4) - this is everything a Wrestlemania main event should be. Incredibly intense, and both guys perform really well. Steve Austin Vs Scott Hall (WM18, #99) - I enjoyed this. They work out a really smart match, to make it as good as it could possibly be, including using Nash to keep things interesting. This is a big plus for Austin for me, because this could easily have been crap. Steve Austin Vs The Rock (WM19, #8) - another fantastic match from these two, and the character work in particular is really great. The perfect end to their trilogy. The case for Austin: he doesn't have a bad match or performance on his resume, which I don't think any of the other contenders can say. The case against Austin: only 7 matches, with 3 of them being against the same opponent. Chris Jericho The matches: Chris Jericho Vs Chris Benoit Vs Kurt Angle (WM16, #57) - this seems a bit high in retrospect, as I can't really think of too much I liked about this. In fact, I think it was rather forgettable altogether. Chris Jericho Vs William Regal (WM17, #77) - I imagine these two had better matches in this time period. This was okay, sound psychology, and I liked the way the armwork came into play with Jericho unable to hook the Walls in. It seemed a bit rehearsed at times though. Chris Jericho Vs Triple H (WM18, #86) - remembered as the match that went on after Rock/Hogan, but this actually features a pretty good heel Jericho performance, even though Hunter is totally boring as the babyface. Jericho's attack on the leg is nice. Chris Jericho Vs Shawn Michaels (WM19, #44) - everything good about this match comes from Jericho's end, and I think it is one of the better performances in Mania history. His execution, his sustained targeting of Shawn's back, his mannerisms and mocking of Shawn- all top-notch work. This is a carry-job in my estimation. Chris Jericho Vs Christian (WM20, #14) - Jericho finally gets an opponent up to the task, and the two of them put on one of the most underrated matches in Mania history, with a memorable finish. Money in the Bank ladder match (WM21, #17) - the first remains the best, but Jericho is really just a bit-player. Money in the Bank ladder match (WM24, #22) - the second best one, but again, Jericho is in the background. Probably should give him some credit from his involvement in the two best ones though. Chris Jericho Vs Roddy Piper/Jimmy Snuka/Ricky Steamboat (WM25, #82) - this is all about Steamer, but Jericho first has to carry Piper and Snuka to something resembling a match. It's a good display. Chris Jericho Vs Edge (WM26, #72) - this is a pretty paint-by-numbers match, which doesn't get going at all until Jericho starts working the leg. Chris Jericho Vs CM Punk (WM28) - I did this ranking prior to WM28, but for what it's worth, I thought this was the best match on the show. The case for Jericho: some really good individual performances, and usually found a way to make what he was involved in interesting. The case against Jericho: a lack of truly high end matches. Just my opinions, of course. I'd probably lean towards Bret, but then, I'm a massive Bret mark

Bret, Austin and Savage are all in the discussion. I suppose some would say The Undertaker. I think Jericho is a really good Wrestlemania performer, but probably not a realistic GOAT contender.

I actually recall Kurt going the other way and getting up right on the count of 10 to make things more 'dramatic'/replicate a 2.9 count. I remember in the last man standing he had with JBL on Smackdown there were a couple of times where he pushed it really, really close, and I think at least one time where he clearly didn't make it up before the 10 count, and I think got booed for it.

Rude is someone who's always flattered to deceive for me. I think he has a great look, great gimmick, carries himself like a big star, cuts a great promo, but when the bell rings, more often than not, I'm left cold by his performance.

I can't remember if it's this one, or one of the previous two matches, but Doink does one of my favourite sell-jobs ever. Perfect had been working on the leg, then Doink takes over, I think Perfect ends up on the floor, and Doink limps over to the apron, then collapses on his bad wheel, and looks at the camera with this maniacal smile. It's like, he knows his body is falling apart, but doesn't give a shit so long as he gets to keep dishing out the punishment.

Goldberg by a million miles. I could enjoy Goldberg on a certain level for weeks, even months, on end. Sid owuld get a pop out of me when he first showed up somewhere, but then by week 2 or 3, he'd completely outstayed his welcome. Plus, despite his size, he really doesn't look that intimidating to me. I think it's the hair. Hate that hair.