WingedEagle

Come on, accessibility is more than having an internet connection. Let's not be that simplistic.

At least radio on the drive home tonight was FANTASTIC.

Really great point by Dylan about why he ranked Tamura over Han. Hadn't quite been able to pin down just why I preferred Tamura but he absolutely nailed it. Couldn't have said it better.

Accessibility is key. People have to dig pretty far beyond even the highly touted material from another country to get to Tamura.

No, the Steiner-HHH match that preceded Angle-Benoit RR03 was a horrible match. I love the Benoit-Angle match. One of my all-time faves. I didn't post that list to try and convince people who hate Angle to change their mind. I posted it to answer the call from those who seem to think those of us who like him are pulling his career out of thin air. You don't have to agree that they're good matches. I'm not trying to change your minds. I'm just trying to get some acknowledgement that even though we may have a different take on the guy mine isn't built out of nothing. Exactly. I completely see what the issues with him are and understand why he may not rank for people because of them, but would think even his biggest detractors can acknowledge it may not have been an issue every single time he stepped into the ring. Mileage will vary based on your preferences, but his flaws are not such that they render him trash. Too many things he did well, even and especially on nights when his limitations got the best of them. Almost the antithesis of a worker prone to laziness. He couldn't help but offer something interesting even in a trainwreck scenario.

I also have a fair bit of Brisco coming my way soon enough. Very, very much looking forward to a deep dive there. Like irrationally excited to jump into that.

It means absolutely nothing, but I love seeing a dude named Moonsault Mavin comment on Jack Brisco. Just a great visual.

How do you view his TNA work? To me he really dragged down talented guys like Nigel, Styles, and even Joe into the sewer with him, but as someone who may be a fan of some of the stuff I dislike, I'm curious to know how you look at the last ten years of his career. I haven't watched most of it since near when it originally aired, but am actually in the process of rewatching a lot of TNA (among the endless list of viewing projects) and just about up to his debut, and am looking forward to seeing where I stand on it today. With that caveat, I thought he had a lot of hits and misses. Hits were when he really gelled with someone, such as the Joe matches at Genesis '06 and Lockdown '08, but not so much the first rematch. Similarly, I thought he had some really excellent work with Styles, Jarrett and far from stinkers with the likes of Sting, Abyss and Matt Morgan, relative to their talents. Then there are the misses. The iron man match with Joe. The other times with even excellent workers like Styles or Christian where enough just wasn't enough and he left a lot of scorched earth in his tracks. Interestingly, I think he didn't mix well at all with Christian, who was determined to work a more traditional style with selling and building a match. Angle's best output, for my money, came when he was in with someone willing and capable of pushing him at his pace, in his comfort zone. I'm just about finished with Bob Backlund's autobiography and throughout it he talks about being very cognizant of building the crowd to a peak and then going home at that point. Angle is someone who often looked to get to that peak right away. And then keep going. On the right night, with the right opponent, it could be paced a bit better and perhaps not overcook things too much. That definitely happened with Nigel, though I think I really liked at least one of their matches, but can't recall which one. So all those misses? The iron man, the video game TV match with AJ and its various iterations over the years? They're just not actively horrible for me. There's too much exciting offense out there for it to be trash. I can find something redeeming in that kind of match where the execution, effort, movement and action all offer something. It may not amount to a great match, and I may be throwing up my hands asking what in hell is going on at some point. But I will not be bored, and there will be great moments, whether a long teased moonsault, some highlight reel suplexes or big near fall sequence. He's that friend who sometimes drinks too much and you need to send him home in cab. But you always want that guy at the bar because its never dull. What's all that worth? I ranked him 61.

I completely understand the criticisms of Angle, but the guy still impresses me more times than not. Yeah, he does too much and for the most part has one gear. But man he just does so much with it. At the end of the day I'd rather go to bed overstuffed and perhaps a little sick than starving.

Incredibly sad, both the news and that it is unsurprising. Thoughts and prayers to her family and loved ones.

Easy to find. Years of weekly TV matches + the Network. Hase required a whole lot more effort, but yes, his style and act should immediately translate even to fans unfamiliar with the Japanese product.

Jericho's work is more easily accessible. That counts.

Clickbait and nonsense.

Very much this. Zayn has looked awfully mediocre on the main roster. I haven't been of Jericho's work with Styles, but didn't expect a ton out of it based on what Jericho has done of late. The Zayn match was a much bigger disappointment, which seems to be something that comes to mind with a lot of his matches lately.

Very strongly believe that "Hogan was awful" is as accurate as "Hogan was an all-time worker." Charisma, crowd pops and moments galore. Also one of the few names where it is probably impossible for most fans to look at him objectively, if that's even a goal. If you grew up watching WWF TV he holds a permanent place in your wrestling memories and development as a fan. On the other hand, Hogan as a top 10 all timer is some real stay away from drugs talk.

Strongly agree on all except Hase. While there seems to be a debate about his post-NJ work, have people soured on him due to the 80s NJPW set or from the yearbooks? A question about his peaks and top performances may meet some varied response, but I never got the sense that his rep has taken any kind of a hit from greater exposure.

Definitely a really good match. Pretty favorable reviews in the MDA as well, but for some reason not one that's often brought up on Hogan's greatest hits list.

Have no idea, but on a related basis I always wondered how strong a recency bias enters into voting. Fujinami & Martel were the two big names I hadn't seen a ton of coming into this, and on the flip side they both rated incredibly highly for me. Did they belong there, or was I blown away by their material being not just great, but also fresh? I have no idea but definitely thought about that sort of thing.

I am completely at a loss as to how you can say that we (if you're still referring to either me or Steve) have said it's incorrect to call him a murderer. I think I've even called him a "fucking murderer" to stress the point. To me cold-blooded implies conscious thought and a lack of emapthy and clear frame of mind. I thought it was pretty well established that there were other factors also at play with Benoit. If there wasn't then I'm just not well enough informed on the matter. But if there is, then it's factually wrong to just call him cold-blooded. It's totally understandable, but probably not quite correct. And I strongly believe that we need to take that seriously in order to understand and prevent. I totally get the need to just push it aside and only say "murderer" when thinking of Benoit. I think it's natural, but I think it's a bad idea. "What's wrong with leaving it at Chris Benoit killed his fucking family. Brain trauma is serious. We should treat it seriously. The end." Nothing wrong with that on a wrestling thread. At all. People opened this thread up to being about more than wrestling, and if that's the case, I'd have to remove the full stops in your comment to directly connect the brain trauma with his actions. I hear and respect you not wanting to do that. I'd have preffered it if you could also respect my point of view that it's important not to disconnect the two if we're ever to prevent it. But I honestly think nothing less of you for not wanting to. That's fine. We just can't get any further debating with each other about it then. I really think we should leave it at that, as you say. I truly look forward to engaging with you on much more enjoyable subjects, wrestling related or otherwise. Amen, brotha.

Stiff chair shots to the head -- when not overdone. My god, they are so brutal & intense and almost always kick things up another gear when used sparingly. But not cool! And really, shouldn't be done. Will not complain if I never see another. But watching old footage? POW!

Anyone who says its incorrect to call him a murderer? How about those concerned with the treatment of Chris Benoit if he were alive? For reference, see your earlier posts, also quoted on page 6 of this thread. What's wrong with leaving it at Chris Benoit killed his fucking family. Brain trauma is serious. We should treat it seriously. The end.

So much for his babyface turn.

But don't you see the point that Benoit most likely suffered from something way more serious (he was way more fucked up) than a concussed football player who never came close to doing the same thing as Benoit? And that by ignoring his illnes, not looking into it, not trying to prevent it in the future, not trying to understand it and treat it in others, but just saying "others may suffer from a mental illness that should be treated, but when the illness makes you cross a certain line, we should stop trying to understand it, because trying to understand it implies acceptance of the action" might in the future enable us to help people suffering from minor mental illness, but won't help prevent actions like Benoit's or treat people who are as fucked up as he was in time? Go for it. Treat everything. Just don't try to change the top line of Chris Benoit's resume. I take issue with qualifying his actions in any way. You can explore and hopefully find solutions for brain trauma without providing an opening for excusing his actions.

Do you really not get my point? Did I show ambivalence toward mental illness or caring for those with brain trauma? Did I not make it plainly clear that wife- and child-murderer Chris Benoit was a poor platform for arguing for that point? If this confusion is due to reading comprehension or my words not being clear then I'm happy to clarify, because I'm sure there's no way it'd be willful ignorance.

Wave the flag for someone with mental illness who has not committed murder or a similarly horrible act. I just don't get what's contentious about that point. Find one of the likely countless wrestlers, football players or others who have brain trauma. Scream it from the hills. But please first confirm whether or not they have killed someone.