Jimmy Redman

Battlarts and Futen are very much hybrid shoot style promotions. Shoot style is their base but they incorporate pro style moves in more realistic ways. Ikeda specifically is known for being probably the stiffest worker ever. Battlearts reoccurred a lot on the lists of Childs, Chad and Charles, and clearly with him ranking #100 a lot of people are high on him, so I might watch some of this stuff when I start watching wrestling again. Your description and what I've heard sounds vaguely promising, and I'm wondering if it's more accessible than the dryer-than-paint-1990-UWF type stuff I tried to watch whenever it was or than Volk Han etc. As someone who came at shootstyle from a very similar place to you, I think, the one thing I'd recommend is looking for a guy like Alexander Otsuka or even Carl Greco. Those guys tend to incorporate more hybrid stuff - more pro-style, more suplexes, Otsuka even has some lucha influence - to go along with the stiff shots and more shooty stuff. You'd recognise it a bit more I think. Something like Ikeda vs Ishikawa I doubt would be your cup of tea because the ones I've seen mostly involve them beating the shit out of each other.

The 90s have been good to me thus far, I don't give a shit about any of these guys. Probably just jinxed it though.

This has been so exciting to count down that when I saw the Top 100 thread posted just now I had a little *gasp* moment. I mean I almost didn't want to click on the thread because it's like...I don't want to spoil it, I want to savour the moment, and I'm also kind of scared to clink on it in case I see one of my guys fall down. And then #100 turned out to be someone I don't care about and I exhaled. But still, exciting times.

One day I need to sit down and watch Lucha Underground. It sounds right up my alley. But it also sounds like something I need to watch from beginning to end like a TV show.

In May.

Man...I don't know if King vs Cole is the worst Mania match ever, but it's certainly the one that pissed me off the most. It should have been the easiest match in wrestling history to book (King kills him dead in 2 minutes flat) and instead they overthought it, tried to add all kinds of bullshit like Cole getting heat, needless extra people involved, the convoluted finish, and above all the bullshit reversal that lead to the angle continuing FOR ANOTHER TWO MONTHS for no earthly fucking reason. And you end up with that piece of offensive shit we got.

I ranked him based on work and didn't give a thought to anything else.

Charlotte vs Becky vs Sasha. New girls and allegedly new title.

vs Kennedy at No Mercy 2006 was from memory a good match. Didn't reach any higher than that, but it wasn't bad, and as far as Kennedy goes it's well above his average. I think their Survivor Series match was better and pretty good. But I haven't seen them for a good long while. The Dudley Boyz feud in 2004 was fairly lame, but Smackdown was fairly lame in 2004. The angle DID lead to the really good TV match vs John Cena in June while Taker was under Heyman's control or whatever the fuck was going on that lead Taker to do heelish stuff. The Big Show feud in 2008 was generally quite good. No Mercy 2008 was the best match though, I have no recollection of what happened at Cyber Sunday. The Kane feud in 2010 was actually really fun and interesting for the most part, but the PPV matches were the least interesting part. What WAS good was Taker's performances throughout, particularly the way he sold the angle by changing his whole demeanor and selling depending on whether he had his "powers" or not. I don't recall the Hassan match, but that came after the London Bombings controversy and as I recall that match was used to squash him and blow off the character. Haven't seen the 2001 stuff.

I get the joke, but someone asked the question of what his best 00s matches were. and it was answered.

Parv I know you're talking shit but I am totally willing to go into random Taker PPV matches of the 00s if you want to hear it.

vs Jeff Hardy - Raw July 2002 (Ladder match) vs Angle vs Rock - Vengeance 2002 vs Brock Lesnar - No Mercy 2002 (HIAC) vs John Cena - Vengeance 2003 vs Kurt Angle - SD September 2003 w/ Angle vs Brock/Cena - SD October 2003 vs Vince - Survivor Series 2003 (Buried Alive) vs John Cena - SD June 2004 vs Randy Orton - WM21 vs Randy Orton - SD September 2005 vs Mark Henry - SD Feb 2006 vs Kurt Angle - NWO 2006 vs Big Show - ECW July 2006 vs Khali - SD August 2006 w/ Dave vs Shawn/Cena - NWO 2007 vs Finlay - March 2007 vs Batista - WM23 vs Batista - Backlash 2007 vs Batista - SD 2007 (Cage) vs Batista - Cyber Sunday 2007 vs Batista - Survivor Series 2007 (HIAC) vs Edge - WM24 vs Festus - SD April 2008 vs Edge - ONS 2008 (TLC) vs Edge - Summerslam 2008 (HIAC) vs Big Show - No Mercy 2008 vs Jeff Hardy - SD November 2008 vs Shelton - SD January 2009 vs Show vs Hunter vs Kozlov - SD Feb 2009 vs Shawn - WM25 vs Rey - Rumble 2010 vs Shawn - WM26 vs Hunter - WM27 vs Hunter - WM28 vs Punk - WM29 vs Brock - Summerslam 2015 I included as much stuff as I could think of because I even when people say "oh he has one good match a year" I think that's bullshit until he was literally only working one match per year, there's a lot of good stuff, a lot of good TV matches during the time when he was working full time. Woah this escalated as I was typing.

I have 34 down, 66 alive going into the Top 100. Only 6 guys in my Top 50 have bit the dust, and my highest fallen soldier so far is my #32. The guys I'm most sad didn't make the Top 100, ones who I thought had realistic shots, are Colon, Grey, Kansai, even Fuerza. There are a lot of guys who I thought had no chance and are still alive though, and a lot of guys who did better than I imagined, so overall I'm not upset with the list so far. I don't think the 100-75 range will be kind to my ballot though.

I think it's one of those "wrestlers look for different things than we do" things. Wrestlers would probably be a lot more impressed with his cardio, athletic ability and timing, and crazy and impactful bumping than we are, because they can appreciate how hard it is physically to do. Whereas we're more looking to be entertained.

You guys are all fucked. Taker rules. On the list, my main takeaway is all the women who dropped off, but we could have said that 18 months ago. It was inevitable.

So I'm looking through my ballot and am I right in thinking LA PARKA is still alive??? Outstanding!

I have no idea how Cesaro and Christian are still alive, but I love it. Even if they drop today it's a win in my book.

Mando>Eddie is a fascinating creature.

Yeah. I thought that Taker going for the big dive and Shawn taking his leg out was a neat way to tease that spot and avoid doing it, but without disappointing people. I remember thinking at the time that Taker would never do the dive again, but he's actually busted it out once or twice.

NoooooooooOOOOOOOOOOoooooo! EDIT: That was aimed at the reveal, clearly. I'm super done with objectivity.

The build for this match is so on point. Instead of taking his loss to Taker and moving on with his life like all the other victims, Shawn refuses to let it go. In his arrogance he claims that he "wrestled the perfect match, and made one mistake." He knows he can beat the Undertaker. This is so consistent with Shawn's character. Every big feud he had during his comeback - with Hunter, with Jericho, with Cena, with Angle, with Edge, etc. - was based around Shawn's belief of "I am the better man" or "I am better than you" or "You are no Shawn Michaels". Shawn always acts like the best, talks like the best, wrestles like the best. So in this case he believes he's better than someone - Taker - but the only way to prove it is to beat him, so that idea takes hold of him and he becomes obsessed with the rematch. You can see it in the way he's so sure he will win the Rumble, in the way he desperately clings to the ropes before he's eliminated and then throws a tantrum afterwards, in the way he lashes out at Hunter, at officials, until he finally hatches a plan to get Taker to notice him - screw him out of the title at Elimination Chamber. The downside is that in doing so he's royally pissed off Taker, who asks for the ultimate price for granting his wish: his career. Shawn doesn't even hesitate to put his career on the line, not only because he's so sure he can beat him, but because "if I can't beat you, I have no career." And he truly means it. This is Shawn Hubris at its finest, he is so convinced that he's the greatest, better than anyone on earth, that he believes that if he can't accomplish the most difficult, impossible Everest climb in the history of wrestling - beating Undertaker at Wrestlemania - then he should just pack it in altogether. He's either the greatest of all time, or he's nothing. He's given himself one chance, but it's one that is virtually impossible to pull off. But he sure as hell is going to try. He starts off by mocking Taker's throat slash. As established in the first match, Shawn is fighting an uphill battle against a guy this big and bad and NEEDS Taker to make mistakes if he's to have a fighting chance. So even moreso than the first match he's going full on antagonist, trying to goad Taker into sloppiness. Problem is, he's pissing Undertaker the fuck off. Taker goes postal and unleashes on him, raining down punches, tossing him around, sending him flying off the Big Boot, nailing Old School all in short ord-oh. Did you see that? He landed kind of funny there. I think it's his knee. He's...is he limping? Oh shit! I love everything about this, from Taker's subtle selling and trying to cover it up, to Shawn spotting it and acting like he couldn't believe his luck, to King's sad lament for Taker that the last thing you want in a big match is to pick up an injury. Shawn had a plan to goad Taker into making mistakes, but what he got instead was even better - an injury! It's the happiest of accidents for Shawn, this is just what he needed. He goes after the leg, he uses his figure four, he even uses the ankle lock. Taker for his troubles still fights back, and still manages to get his shots in on Shawn in the meantime, but his leg bothers him the whole way, and suddenly this thing is looking like a fair fight. This is the great equalizer. At one point Shawn knocks Taker off his feet again and Kips Up, and Taker is all "Fuck this shit!" and BAM Chokeslam! His leg must be bothering him because Taker has decided already that it's time to go home, he's had enough of this shit. Soon after they spill outside and Shawn goes for the moonsault, Taker catches him and BAM, Tombstone on the floor! Throwing that shit out already, plus the frantic way Taker throws him back inside to get the cover...I hate to use the word again but Taker is looking kind of...desperate again. He's trying to contend with Shawn wrestling for his life AND having a bad knee at the same time. And it's not working. He goes for the Last Ride, but Shawn pulls his hair and his stupid fucking knee buckles and he collapses face first. Shawn goes for the elbow and Taker gets his knees up to counter but JESUS FUCK I just let him elbow my stupid fucking knee! He resorts to using Hell's Gate from his back but Shawn rolls him into a pin to counter it (once again, this had never been done before, and is another example of escalation that doesn't involve kicking out of finishers). Soon enough Shawn finds an opening to hit the superkick, but naturally it's not enough. As we've established, Shawn's response to a superkick kickout is MOAR SUPERKICKS, and as he tunes up the band this time Taker knows it's coming and counters with the Last Ride. Again, it's not enough. Last year Taker reacted to the Last Ride kickout by going up top, taking a risk and making a mistake. This year he's determined to fix that mistake, so instead of doing something out of character he sticks to what he knows - badassery - and tosses Shawn outside and tries to kill him through the announce table. But once again Shawn finds a superkick at just the right moment, and with that opening he sticks to what he knows - high risk moves - and hits the moonsault off the top through the table and THROUGH TAKER'S STUPID FUCKING KNEE. Whether it was the most pinpointed dive in wrestling history or the most serendipitous botch in wrestling history the result is the same - Shawn nailed that giant moonsault right on Taker's bad leg. King once again was super at this moment going all ashen-voiced and "I swear to God I think his leg's broken." Taker was selling like a demon and at one point was CRAWLING OVER THE BARRICADE TRYING TO GET AWAY. The Undertaker. Fleeing. Shawn is hopped up on the fumes and lurches Taker back into the ring, watching him take an eternity to drag himself up into one last, sad, final super-KICK OUT MOTHER FUCKER. Oh damn that's right! I forgot again! Taker is a BADASS ZOMBIE COWBOY DEADMAN and won't go down even if you break all the legs in his God damn body. Fuck you! Taker is so fucked at this point though, you should see the struggle it takes him to get up from here. He's grabbing the ropes to pull himself but like he can't even put his feet on the floor so he's doing this weird horizontal pull that goes nowhere, it's so pathetic and brilliant. But he finally gets up and Shawn, in his infinitely creative wisdom, goes for another superkick (!) but Taker manages to counter with a Chokeslam. Taker can still barely move but you get the feeling he's just blocked Shawn's last big punch. What else can Shawn really do? He certainly can't seem to think of anything other than more superkicks. Shawn is Shawn, he does things HIS way and it has always worked out for him. He's always been "the better man", always been the best. And now finally, after all of these years, all the opponents, all the matches, he has finally, surely, definitely come up against someone he just can't beat. Someone whom he's not better than. This is where he falls. And since he's either the best, or he's nothing, when he falls his career falls with him. This is it. This is the end. Taker picks him up and ends him with the Tombston-OH HE KICKED OUT. Oh man, I am so forgetful today! This guy is Shawn Michaels motherfuckers! The Heartbreak Kid, the Showstoppa, the Main Event, the Icon. If he's going down, he's going down with the absolute fight of your fucking life. At WM25 Taker was shocked beyond belief that he kicked out of the Tombstone. Here he is just fucking MAD. He is angry that this fucker has the balls, has the fucking gumption to disrespect the Tombstone once again. If he has to kill him to put him down, then he's going to kill this asshole. He drops the straps once again and...looks down on this poor, pathetic, quivering mess of an...old man. And the anger leaves him. "Stay down!" Just stay down man, you don't have to kill yourself over this. You can be the second best ever, it's OK. Shawn sees the pity in Taker and takes SO MUCH fucking offense. He's Shawn Michaels damn it, he'll never lay down as long as he lives. He WANTS to be killed! So boom, throat slash, BITCHSLAP, and Taker's rage returns with a fucking vengeance and he KILLS HIM WITH THE JUMPING TOMBSTONE OF FUCKING DEATH. I like the symmetry of starting with the throat slash and pissing off Taker, and then ending with it. That was Shawn's play, and by God he was going to see it through. The finish with Taker having to put Shawn down for good also hearkens back to WM24 when Shawn put Flair down. It's almost like a cycle now, and its importance becomes increasingly apparent as we get into the Hunter matches. Even though it's not a Streak match, Shawn vs Flair was kind of the precursor to these matches. And afterwards we get Taker showing another rare glimpse of humanity, holding his hand out for Shawn to shake as a show of mutual respect. The kind of respect Taker shows to someone who pushed him far beyond his limits, more than anyone else had ever before. Taker might not even realise it yet, but the lengths he had to go to to defeat Shawn would have a lasting effect on him. In some ways, this was the beginning of the end. This match is as good an example as any of the kind of bone-headed hubris that Shawn wrestled with. I don't think he's ever been more obstinate than in this match. He had one way and only one way of doing things: Being Shawn Michaels. He didn't need to change his game after WM25 because he was CONVINCED that he'd wrestled it perfectly and it was only the moonsault counter that did him in. He was convinced, as he ever was, that he just needed to Be Shawn Michaels as well as he could and he'd win, because he's better than Taker, better than anybody. And he even lucked into the luckiest of fortunes - Taker injures his knee! So he goes to work on that as well as doing all of the Shawn things. He hits superkicks, and when they don't work he tries more superkicks. He goes for big moonsaults to the floor. It's all very...Shawn-y. The one new thing he tried - the Ankle Lock - was only due to Taker's leg injury and Shawn having to come up with ways to work it over. In a funny way it's like the only thing he could think of was that Mania a few years ago...he had to tap to the Ankle Lock, so it must be good! Offensively he was so very...unimaginitive. It's like the hubris had taken over and rendered him incapable of doing anything other than what he always does. And ultimately it was his undoing. His offensive predictability at key moments allowed Taker to make his counters and recover from the injury that would otherwise have hampered him a lot worse. He saw the Kip Up coming and immediately hit a Chokeslam. He saw the moonsault coming and caught it. He saw the elbow coming and got his knees up. He saw the superkick coming and hit the Last Ride. Even at his most vulnerable, after he endured the table bump and a superkick and couldn't move, Shawn did the one thing he could have guessed was coming - tuned up the band AGAIN - and Taker was able to avoid it one more time, leading to the finish. Honestly the worst thing about this match is Matt Striker shitting himself all over it. I am not even close to being able to decide which of the Streak matches I like the most or least, but I think this one is probably the least pleasant to sit through simply on account of rolling my eyes every five seconds at the shit coming out of Striker's mouth. It's a shame he had to taint Shawn Michaels' retirement match like that. But whatever. I just watched the greatest wrestler ever go out on top of the world. Fuck all y'all.

I will, in fact, hold that it is theoretically possible to argue for El Gigante being a better wrestler than Daniel Bryan. It may be a wildly insane, improbable, far-fetched, incredibly particular, left-field argument. And maybe the least popular argument in the history of wrestling fandom. But it wouldn't be factually incorrect. That is all I'm saying. But for the love of God can we stop talking about it.

My question to Parv is then this: where do you draw the line between objectivity and subjectivity? By that I mean, if you posit that Daniel Bryan is objectively better than El Gigante, but you can accept that there are subjective arguments that place Daniel Bryan above or below, I don't know, Kenta Kobashi...where is the line? Is Bryan objectively better than John Tenta? Than El Samurai? Than John Cena? How do we decide when someone is objectively, factually worse than Bryan, as opposed to someone who is only subjectively worse than him? I just...I've seen way too much variance in opinions on wrestlers' worth and value from too many people to ever believe that there is some universal, unmovable, objective criteria that can be applied to all wrestling. I'm not touching El Gigante, but I fucking love the Great Khali and I'd put his ass over plenty of wrestlers who most people would claim were "objectively" better. But not to me they ain't. I mean Jesus, if there's anything that should dispel the notion of absolute truth in wrestling it's this list. Someone put Scott Steiner #1 and explained why. Is Scott Steiner objectively worse than Daniel Bryan? Because that guy sure as hell doesn't think so. Who decides? You can't. My point once and for all is that all the consensus in the world doesn't make it an objective fact, in the way that 1 + 1 = 2 is an objective fact.

Grim's gotta come here and save us from ourselves with some names.

Andre, Savage, Warrior, Slaughter, Race, Bossman, Schultz, Valentine, Orndorff off the top of my head. Assuming we're just talking about that 80s period. I think he had a lot of good matches during the Hulkamania run. One of the reasons why he's on my list.