Jetlag

"People saying he's better than Brock in the Brock thread makes me laugh." "Saying he's better than Brock, who actually has a legitimate case for this list, just doesn't sit well with me." So... why is Brock's case more legitimate than Ogawa's then? You can go on about how ridiculous x is, but with nothing to back it up you are just dropping assertions which makes a GWE discussion pointless. As I said in the Brock thread, Ogawa a) has good matches with lousy workers doesn't look carried or out ofplace when matching up with guys like Hash, Kawada, Fujiwara c) thus is in a bunch of high end matches for such a "lousy" worker d) is otherwise comparable to Brock and e) while having some stinkers in his career, he doesn't sink to the same lows as Brock (something which people have yet to comment on in the Brock thread). So again, why is Ogawa > Brock ridiculous? Why is Brock more impressive when he's having great matches with super talented dudes like Cena and Reigns and shit matches with Angle and Triple H, when Ogawa has great matches with super talented dudes and decent matches with guys like Yasuda and Coleman? (by the way, wouldn't mind reading a Triple H/Yasuda comparison, Dylan) What does Brock DO that makes him better than Ogawa. Unpredictable offense? Ogawa kind of matches him. Selling? Again something Ogawa is really good at. Bumping? Ogawa's a bump machine. Charisma/aura? Again Ogawa is up there with the most impressive in all of japanese wrestling. Again Ogawa's chances of my list are reeeally low. Large chunk of his career in HUSTLE and stopped giving a crap in the last couple of years, altough I'll take him and Kaz dicking around for 7 minutes before an amusing Inoki fuckfinish over Brock and Angle going 60 or the dicking around Brock was doing in japan. But he is being way undersold. It would be interesting to see a side by side comparison between something him and Brocks best matches.

Thanks Khawk, I forgot the obvious I watched the first Spiros Arion match and it was total crap. Just really basic lame wrestling with nothing to sink your teeth into. It may be because of Spiros though, boy was that low blow lame. I didn't notice any transcendental crowd connection either, can anybody explain what Bruno actually does to merit such a 10/10 ranking? His selling was fairly goofy, aside from the whole match being kind of sloppy. The cage match was better but merely okay due to too much bullshit about climbing out the door and over the fence. Once again I'm not sure what Bruno did in it. I liked his punch combo but at another point he was wandering around looking like he was lost not knowing what to do. Also has a stupid dive off the cage when you could just win the match. I also watched clips of that Greek deathmatch. It looked a lot better but also kind of goofy. It's a little shocking to me cause I remember enjoying Bruno's selling of Baba's chops. Maybe he was too much in his comfort zone in those WWF matches. Anyways after going through what I assume are his best matches Bruno has no real chance for me. The Zbyszko and Hansen matches are more fun than great and he's not better than his opponents there. If you like him I suggest you check out Franz van Buyten.

I enjoy Baba but often he is just there and I don't recall any singles matches or tags where he was the better guy. The 1989 tag with Rusher is awesome and you want him to work like that more often but he just doesn't. The supposed "chess match" thing is something I don't see at all - he was good at working holds, but often he was just filling up time like many other workers. I think he's a fun worker but his "smart" working is way overrated. Also, way too reliant on his opponent to make his lousy offense look effective at all. Is "solid all around" and "never did anything wrong" enough to merit ranking him above genuinely outstanding workers?

What are the Top 5 Bruno matches? I've seen him vs. Baba, Larry and Hansen.

I think the 1999 Ogawa/Hashimoto match and Ogawa/Kawada are better than any match Brock has been in. Ogawa is actually a similiar case to Brock where he has been a part timer for most of his career and similiar to post-comeback Bock with the german suplex replaced by judo throws and his matches are smarter. Now Hash and Kawada are better opponents than Brock has had but Ogawa also figured out how to get good matches out of guys like Mark Coleman or Tadao Yasuda and has an enjoyable tag run teaming with Hashimoto.

He was great shootstylist who figured how to have great matches in what was arguably the weakest form of shootstyle presentation. Great singles bouts with Funaki, Tamura and Sano, all of which stand out as among the best bouts of it's respective company. Smart matworker with a knack for layout and some killer strikes. His big drawing card however is his ability to switch it up and transform into an absolute bastard and heat magnet when slotted into interpromotional battles. His expressiveness matches anyone else's in japanese wrestling history which makes him a great opponent for guys like Tenryu or Fujiwara, and one of those must-watch candidates where any possible matchup is interesting. Anjoh vs. Tarzan Goto? You know you want to see it, atleast I do, which is why digging up all the undercard Anjoh matches from the 2000s has been on my to do list for a while. The biggest crack on him is that the KINGDOM promotion that used him as ace was kind of a failure, but if you are considering Ohtani then Anjoh more than deserves a look.

His post comeback work has been hits and misses and only produced a small handful of matches. His first run had stuff like those fucking terrible Angle matches, the Goldberg fiasco and the horrible no-good japan stint. Granted he was a huge talent, is a spectacular attraction now and had a few good matches, but I don't see how he cracks a Top 100 unless you want to count his UFC impact which is like voting for Angle based on his medal. I'm not even sure he's better than Naoya Ogawa.

I went with Santo because he has quite a few impressive bloodbaths under his belt which is something Casas' career seems to be otherwise lacking. Unless I'm missing something there. I agree with OJ and Casas probably has more good/diverse matches on tape, but for me those two are almost interchangably close and Santito's aura matches Casas' character work.

I think he's kind of like a japanese Undertaker. Some good matches, but could get really annoying with antics and shtick. Didn't really become a great worker until the last couple years, and even then the booking hasn't done him much favors. Could see a chance for him once I watch all the PWFG.

I felt Reilly/KUSHIDA went about 20 minutes too long. They had some good ideas, but tried too hard to stretch the match and put in a bunch of goofy/throwaway moments. Stopped caring really. The end wound up feeling random. Maybe I'll like it more on rewatch.

I thought Mesias was excellent in that match and not spotty at all. Especially his selling of the Tombstone piledriver where he kept holding his neck in place and went for desperate takedowns. That is exactly how you make a believable comeback after getting drilled. He also threw rockin punches and a great tope. I don't see how that plancha to the floor was treated like nothing either - they teased a countout afterwards and Park made a lucky comeback knocking Mesias over with a punch to the face. Park was excellent in the match and it was a distinctly heel performance. You had him stomping the piss out of Mesias, landing square punches to the face and explicitly making sure to attack Mesias' pretty face in front of his female fans. He also made little things like getting crotched or taking a bump to the floor look amazing. After Mesias got into the match Park was fading away and resorting to more and more cheating tactics. FYI Park's brother was murdered just shortly before this event. So the bit with the sheet was typically pro wrestling. It only took a few seconds and didn't detract from the match at all as it allowed Mesias to believably survive, while it emphasized Park was a tasteless arrogant prick. So there you have it. Still the best singles match of the decade so far if you ask me.

You ought to do like Matt D and get some lessons in the gentle art of enjoying mexican wrestling.

Billy Catanzarro. vs Cesca is still about the best performance I've seen from a guy who has 1 match on tape. Nothing else has surfaced from him, altough Cesca showed up a couple times more on youtube. Also, Dave Taylor somehow ended up in the best chain match ever against van Buyten. He was a solid worker who probably should have been a big star with his freaky power spots alone, but in that match he was really great. Some more of these: - Masao Orihara vs. Akitoshi Saito - Sumie Sakai vs. Megumi Yabushita - Tatsuo Nakano vs. Masakatsu Funaki - Arandu vs. Guerrero Negro - Abe Ginsberg vs. Pete Curry - Red Bastien vs. Verne Gagne - Axel Dieter vs. Moose Morowski Fucking footage issues, can't we just have time travel already?

OJ, would you agree Franz van Buyten was the best european worker in 1987? Couple matches with Lasartesse, MOTYC against Rudge and getting good matches out of Col. Brodie, Butcher Mason and Suni War Cloud.

1997 - vs Fujiwara 1998 - vs Araya, vs Hashimoto 1999 - vs Hashimoto 1995 -w Ultimo vs. Kandori & Fuyuki I'd be shocked if there was a Tenryu match not worth watching.

After that shit-talking Dean in the other thread I really want to see a shit ton of match recs for Debbie now.

Joe Malenko should be a lock for my Top 100 Wrestlers I Love But Can't Honestly Call Top 100 All Time list.

Tenzan is a terrible wrestler. He even sucks in those Akiyama matches. Awful mongolian chops and headbutts, he's like the world's worst Killer Khan.

I agree with most of what OJ has said. So I'll try this... Buddy Rose or Johnny Saint? Rose. Not even close. I really like Saint as a flashy, trippy worker and his best matches are probably better than Roses, but even watching a limited sample of Buddy you can tell he is infinitely more versatile, gets good matches out of limited opponents and most importantly doesn't annoy you with endless smirks and jokes. Besides that Saint carrying a territory sounds like a nightmare. It also helps that Rose was able to have gritty, bloody matches and knew proper tag structure. Rose grinding his knuckles into Piper's bloody forehead is better than Saint busting Breaks' nose, Rose and Wiskowski team is better than messy WoS tags, Rose vs. Martel is a better rookie/vet match than Saint/Brookside. Etc. You could argue Saint has a longer career and wrestled in many different places, but he never really changed up his style. Steve Austin or Riki Choshu? Choshu. I like WCW Austin quite a bit and Austin vs. Angle is one of the best performances from a heel I've seen in a WWE match. But frantic japanese heavyweight wrestling beats Attitude Era brawls and for technician vs. brawler Fujinami/Choshu is atleast as good as Austin/Hart. Choshu/Fujiwara is a better spectacle than any Austin spectacle. Choshu "lariating a small house down" against Hashimoto is a moment I like more than anything but a handful of others in wrestling history. Choshu kept delivering goodies even into the 2000s. Austin was a good worker in a shitty environment who got the most out of it, but throw Choshu into any matchup and it becomes dynamite. Jushin Liger or Volk Han? I wanted to say Han on instinct, but it's a pretty close matchup. The main deciding factor would be style for me. Liger as a one-armed maniac vs. Sano or demolishing Ohtani with palm strikes is great. Liger doing throwaway matwork and forgettable move trading in standard junior matches doesn't really help his case at all. So I think Average Han destroys Average Liger. Liger has the longer career and more diverse types matches, such as the NOAH feud. I think if there was more stuff like Liger vs. Aoyagi he would get ahead of Han comfortably. But looking at the core Han is the better worker. I don't think these are that outlandish. Comparing Top WWF guy to Second Best 80s Japan Guy or Top Junior to Top RINGS guy isn't that outlandish. Let's look at these: Akira Taue or Black Terry? Akira Hokuto or Pirata Morgan? Ricky Steamboat or Finlay? Necro Butcher or Ron Garvin? Tamon Honda or Villano III?

I am... not really buying into any of that. It looks a lot like cherry picking to me. You might aswell argue Baba was better than Misawa like this. Is stuff like Funk vs. Jumbo or Briscoe vs. Jumbo really fodder for Jumbo as a great worker when it's the the vets doing the bulk of the work? Calling Jumbo a master at the 70s style seems like an overstatement... he was good at it but could also be real dull at times. Don't think he was significantly better than his peers in the 80s. Not as exciting as Choshu and definitely consistent on the same level as Tenryu. His strong point would be the section after Tenryu leaves where he works with Misawa and the kids... strong work but I'm not sure it elevates him to Flair levels. I can't think of any instance of Jumbo having a great match with a mediocre opponent ala Flair. Consistency is his issue... most Flair matches were disappointing, so were most Hansen bouts. Etc. This is not saying Jumbo is bad. But I'm not even a huge Misawa fan, and looking at the matches Misawa obliterates Jumbo, in my opinion. And it's not like Jumbo's edge in versatility is that big - Misawa has shown he can go hold for hold in matches against Hansen.

Javier Cruz - 80s lucha set Tenzan, Kojima - 2000s forum Joe Malenko - http://segundacaida.blogspot.de/2009/02/segunda-caidagoodhelmet-mix-tape-1-best.html Dan Spivey - 90s forum Dream Machine - 80s Memphis Booker T, Sandman - 90s forum Milano Collection A.T. - 2000s forum Debbie and Homicide are the only ones who need reviews

I recall reading somewhere Kikuchi vs. Takaiwa was a junior MOTDC, but that was more about Kikuchi. Also surely Kashin is better than Takaiwa? I mean that guy atleast sold.

I remember reading a story about Arandu (caveman luchador with awesome hair you may know from the 80s set) like this a while back. I can't remember the details, but apparently there was a 10 bell salute for Arandu at a lucha show in Monterrey or somewhere. I don't know if it was because of confusion over a fake or something, but the actual Arandu (who lives in Texas) was contacted, he then proceeded to call the promoter of the show for some beyond the grave shenanigans.

OJ, do you think it would be insane to consider Command Bolshoi among the best female workers? I really like the little I've seen from her.

I think it's great if you get over the terrible VQ. I think it was one of DLJ's last matches and he acts like such a dipshit in it thinking he has it all with his athleticism, but ends up falling on his ass. There is also a clipped match of theirs from 1978 on YouTube where Wanz busts out a lucha roll up among other things.