C.S.

Holy crap, my innocent (I thought) little pet peeve has been spun off into its own thread, with seven pages already. I don't mean to ignore any posts directed toward me (if there are any), but I just wanted to jump in with a quick little aside: I finished Dusty's book last night, and he talked about - of all people - Kevin Nash being one of the wrestlers who acted like money was the only thing important to him, but in reality, Nash actually cares about his overall performance (not Dusty's exact words, just the general gist of what he said). Now, the word "art" was never used, but still, Dusty's words do lend credence to the people here who say that most wrestlers aren't really in it for the money. Dusty was surprisingly high on Nash - talked about his incredible charisma, etc.

Kind of an oversimplification IMO. 1. There were great wrestling matches 30 years ago too. 2. The schedule back then was a lot more brutal than it is now, which lent itself to more phoning it in, shorter matches, etc. 3. Today's wrestlers are better athletes because the world in general is more knowledgeable about health, fitness, etc. I realize I'm oversimplifying matters too, but all of those factors do make a difference in today's style and speed of wrestling vs. 30 years ago.

Never said any of that though. An artist can indeed make a ton of money. Other people misinterpreting previous posts of mine doesn't change what I actually said. The difference is this: 90% of successful wrestlers place a high importance on the money. Art is way down the list, if it's there at all. Doesn't mean they don't work hard at their craft, take pride in it, etc. Whereas, there are actors who - yes - make a lot of money, but the majority of the long-lasting successes (not all) genuinely identify themselves as artists and make a conscious effort to create art. Some have the "one for me, one for them" approach where they'll rotate a big studio flick with something more artistic, but they use that big Hollywood money to fund the art. Local indy wrestlers who work for peanuts are the same as actors in college plays. Good stuff some of the time, but not really true professionals yet. I don't include the bigger indies like TNA, ROH, etc. when I say that, just the really local ones. I'm generalizing, obviously, but you get the point.

Except, that wasn't their gimmick - at all - when they were faces, so I'm not really sure what you mean exactly. Your interpretation of their heel act is the kind of meta bullshit I hate, but I honestly don't think that's the intention anyway. They're just bland. "Funny" hairstyles and a valet don't really change that. It's just window dressing.

They weren't any better or more interesting, awesome, charismatic, etc. as faces though.

It's hard for me to say he's being used badly though when one of his first "televised" matches was against World Champion Kevin Owens. True, he hasn't been on any of the "Specials" yet - and you could probably argue that he's more worthy than, say, Blake and Murphy, who are awful too. But at least they're awful in a way that makes me root for Enzo and Cass or some other team to clean their clocks and win the belts. On that note, I can only assume they know something about Blake and Murphy that we don't. A few months ago, I thought Becky Lynch was a boring waste of time with no personality. At the last "Special," she proved everyone wrong and blew me away. Is she quite ready for the main roster yet? No, but she's miles ahead of where she was only a few months ago. B&M, in their defense, have played both face and heel and made tweaks to their character, which at least fits the the spirit of what a developmental promotion is supposed to be - trying new stuff out, seeing what works and doesn't, learning and improving, etc. All of that may happen for Crowe too, but he was shockingly bad from the minute he first appeared on NXT after all of the build-up with the "hacked" TitanTron, etc. I've never seen someone so goofy and "indy." He is absurdly awful as a character and personality. He is badly in need of a complete gimmick overhaul and a lot more time in "promo class" or whatever it is that Dusty used to run.

People seem to think I'm saying only "starving artists" can be real artists. No. Of course there's a monetary component. Never suggested otherwise. But when that is the primary motivating factor of 90% of the people in the industry, and the "art" aspect is way down the list, then it ain't art (IMO). Whereas, to use movies as an example, how often have you heard of Clooney, Leo, Molly Ringwald or whoever agreeing to "work scale" or "give up a percentage of their profits" - or whatever it is - to get a smaller movie made. Of course, that doesn't mean every movie is a work of art either or that actors don't do big budget schlock to pad their bank accounts - they do.

Steamboat takes pride in his work, as he should. But so did Joe Montana and Michael Jordan (or whoever - pick your favorite players for this example). So does the stock boy at the grocery store. So does a secretary who keeps the office running smoothly. They're all the best in their fields. Doesn't make any of those other things art though. Plus. as others have said, Steamboat really is the exception to the rule. I'm sure he believes he's an artist and tries to create art, and he probably succeeds. Bret Hart is probably in the same camp as Steamboat. PN News, on the other hand, probably didn't think that way. But I'll use someone "good" and go with Bobby Heenan again, who also didn't think that way. Lex Luger is another example. 10% fall into the Steamboat/Bret camp. The other 90% are in "the business." I think this comes down to two camps: people who see art in the way a ketchup bottle is designed (for example) and people apply that term more literally. The former would consider wrestling art because certain aspects of it have artistic merit. The latter thinks in broader terms and wouldn't classify wrestling as art. I'm going with the 90% of the people in "the business" who don't treat it that way. Hard to argue against that IMO. BTW, oy vey, had no idea I'd be opening such a can of worms by listing "it's art" as one of my pet peeves. This has been going on for how many pages now?

Because Crowe is a complete and utter goof, that's why. His persona makes Jericho at his hammiest look subtle. Awful and embarrassing. I cringe whenever he's on.

http://www.tpww.net/2015/06/update-goldust-stardust-post-their-eulogies-to-dusty-rhodes/ No offense intended if that happens to be your website, but holy shit, the color scheme is right out of an 1984 video game and the sketchy link at the end - "100% DIRECT LINK (PHOTOS): Layla In Hot CAMO Outfit! (24 SMOKIN’ HOT *MUST-SEE* Pics)!" - is like something from a 1996 "newz" site. Good God!

Yep, every "scholarly" piece I've ever seen written about wrestling has been poorly researched and generally full of shit.

Yeah, he was a nice guy and easy to work with. The same is probably true of the guy who mops the floor at Titan Towers. Doesn't make his profession art either.

Even though 99% of the people in the business don't treat it that way? There's a reason everyone calls it "the business" - because that's what it is and how it's approached by damn near everyone in it. I doubt "artistic integrity" and other such pretentous buzz phrases are considered much, if at all. Even Bobby Heenan stresses that the point was to make as much money as possible.

Which blog? Why even hide what you're talking about?! That's weird, honestly. Not like anyone from there is going to see it and get offended. Anyway, the "wrestling is an art form" silliness that gets thrown around here is one of my pet peeves. Wrestling may indeed be an art form, but when the executives and most of the wrestlers don't think so or treat it that way, it becomes a very empty, pretentious talking point.

What a ridiculous criticism. "Too lazy"?! Dusty died less than a week ago. They didn't exactly have a lot of time to put something together, and what we got was top notch from a production quality standpoint. I will agree that I didn't particularly love seeing so much recycled footage either, but I understand it considering the circumstances. The new footage was all tremendous. One question about the Stephanie/Dusty in-ring promo: At the time, I heard murmurs that Stephanie (or was it Vince?) was unhappy with it because Dusty ad-libbed. Was that internet bullshit? On this special, Steph seemingly confirmed the ad-libbing but then went out of her way to say she loved it when Dusty walked away from her, forced her to grab his mic, smirked at her when she did, and what an honor it was to have such a moment with a legend, etc.

Because Owens is not being presented as "a repackaged indy guy on a WWE b-show." How you perceive Owens vs. his actual character and push are are two wildly different things, apparently.

I didn't mean that particular chant specifically, just the general trend of smark chants like that, which were more or less popularized in ECW. Agreed. That's the exact point I was trying to make. You worded it perfectly.

Not guilty! All of the things Heyman and ECW are being raked over hot coals for in this thread were an absolute necessity at the time. - The brand being the true star: With talent constantly being poached by the big two (mostly WCW), this was quite frankly smart business. - Fans being "a part of the show": At the time, both the WWF and WCW were so sterile and corporate that the fans were kept "at a safe distance." ECW was the antithesis of that. Its shows had a homegrown, grassroots feel, and this was a major part of that. Again, smart business. I hate the "This is Awesome," etc. type of smark bullshit now as much as anyone else, but I understand why it was encouraged at the time. It made ECW different, and that was important. - Hardcore style: Damaging, yes - but ECW also showcased technical wrestling and lucha libre before WCW made the latter a staple on Nitro. Heyman, for better or worse, basically let the wrestlers do what they wanted, and they all wanted to top each other. Saying Credible was "never over" is a gross exaggeration IMO. He had a solid following. Pushing him to the World Title was a mistake, but I think the recognition of that and subsequent backlash only happened in hindsight - pretty immediate hindsight at the time, but still. RVD's push has been covered very well in this thread, so I have nothing to add to that. It's obvious his injury derailed whatever plans were in place for him.

People criticizing Cena's use of the Code Red Fruity Pebble are missing the point entirely. Maybe you don't like the move and/or don't like Cena using "finishers" as random high spots - and that's fair enough - but the story of the match was a desperate Cena doing anything and everything to beat Owens, and that came across perfectly through the move, Cena arguing with the ref, showing frustration, etc. It has nothing to do with "OMG, Cena pulled out an ROH/PWG/whatever move." Yeah, okay, that's "nice," but it means nothing if there's no story or logic behind it, and there was in this case.

Cena is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, it seems. He changed up his style a little bit, and people are blasting him for it, even though it made perfect sense and told a good story in the context of this match.

I got the Sheamus MITB win and Roman/Wyatt "who cares?" brawl spoiled for me on Facebook, so I ended up only watching the final three matches and some other misc. stuff. - Awesome Dusty tributes throughout the show. - Paige's promo before the Divas match wasn't bad at all, especially her mention of Dusty at the end, and the finish with the switcheroo and tissued boobs was funny enough, but I won't lie and say I watched the match itself, because I didn't. - As I mentioned, I skipped the MITB match itself after being spoiled on it. These multi-man ladder match spotfests bore me now. I just don't care about them anymore. Have I officially become an old man? Sheamus winning was a "surprise," yes, but I don't see where they can go with it. Almost no World Title feud/scenario involving him is compelling to me. The Roman/Bray feud also doesn't interest me in the least. Bray Wyatt's act flat out doesn't work for me at the moment. It's not believable. It feels like a person playing a bad over-the-top character. - Cena/Owens wasn't as good as last month (still good though), and the post-match was the same shit he's been doing in NXT. With that said, I loved all of the little touches - such as Cena arguing with the ref, showing frustration, etc. And Cena's Canadian Destroyer Code Red...wow. The Springboard Stunner looked botched in the original camera angle but it looked fine during the replay from a different angle. Anyone who says Cena isn't a good wrestler can shove it. - Prime Time Players vs. New Day was okay...nothing special. The pre-match promo with New Day was fun, but I'm glad PTP won. I thought they should've been pushed two years ago when A.W. was still with them. - The main event wasn't bad, but I was hoping it would end with both of them clutching the belt. That would be new, at least. Kind of surprised they made such a big deal of Rollins - a heel - winning cleanly. Don't see how that helps Ambrose.

He looks pretty good to me now. Yeah, he had drug problems, injuries, etc. But he got out, made positive changes in his life, and is doing pretty well for himself from all accounts. Hard to call that anything other than a success story - especially by wrestling standards. Here's a recap. Seems like more of the same old BS from DeMott and the usual softballs from Chris "Conversation Between Friends" Jericho. http://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/2015/6/12/8772305/bill-demott-defends-wwe-nxt-training-philosophy-chris-jericho-podcast Agreed! Goldberg and Warrior's subsequent comebacks did nothing for them. Imagine if they'd had just their one big run. Even so, they're still perfect examples of this, and their superstar status remains more or less intact anyway.

I feel the exact same way.

I don't recall exactly what Mero said back then. Was it that bad? I'm suspecting he was out of the "bubble" by then and told the truth people didn't want to hear?

The way "the boys" in general have piled on Mero over the years is something I've always found disgusting and hypocritical. Today, most of them are on drugs, broken down, or worse, while Mero is inspiring people all around the world with his motivational speaking. It seems Mero got out with his health and self-respect intact. I know which set of boots I'd rather be in.