C.S.

Took me a minute to recognize the JTS acronym as "jump the shark," because - to be honest - I've never really looked at wrestling in those terms. Almost every episode of Raw in its long history has had one or more embarrassing moments. That's wrestling.

Yeah, total game changer. The first wrestler I've ever seen botch a pin. http://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe-raw/2014/9/16/6183313/gif-cameron-pinfall-ref-wwe-raw

Pretty much my opinion as well. The piece feels very "cluttered."

I don't know if this is his greatest match, but it's certainly my favorite: The Enforcers (Arn Anderson and Larry Zbyszko) vs. Dustin Rhodes and the returning Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat at Clash of the Champions XVII on November 19, 1991.

I didn't know Clawmaster, but a death that young is always very sad. Greg Oliver wrote a great piece about him on Slam Wresting. http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/MatMatters/2014/09/15/21941926.html

I found this piece monotonous and poorly formatted...a slog to get through. Is it just me or my mood today? Edit: Maybe I'm being unfair and letting my distaste for TNA color my opinion. It's obviously well-researched, with firsthand quotes (a rarity for internet wrestling pieces), but I just want all of these people to go away!

If you mean the house show I attended, it was after Summer of Punk, so Cena and Miz weren't still feuding, per se. Was still cool in a way to see "the WrestleMania main event" though.

Certainly better than the one I went to a few years ago, which featured Cena vs. Miz in a street fight, Punk vs. Alberto, and a VERY disappointing match between Dolph Ziggler and Evan Bourne that seemed a half-step off (think this was when Bourne was between Wellness suspensions). I remember Drew McIntyre impressing me with his hard work and enthusiasm despite losing. The thing is, I was barely following wrestling at that point (the Summer of Punk got me back, and then lost me again with a series of increasingly insane booking moves), and yet I was still able to predict every single thing that happened. The show was a cool experience, but everything felt rote and stale - which should not ever be the case for a lapsed fan, as I was at the time. I can agree with this. Always fun to see the kids and families just having a good time. That was definitely the case at the show I went to.

Not sure why you're all begging for house shows. Longer matches, yes, but they're usually very paint-by-numbers. It's a fun enough experience, don't get me wrong, but the last thing you'll be is blown away.

I'm shocked that such a match even exists. Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFCe5G361Qk

The Faces of Fear was a damn good, underrated tag team, so there's that.

Finally watched the show. It's on Hulu Plus now, so it turns out you do not need the Network to keep up with NXT. You just won't get the show live, that's all. Anyway, my thoughts: - I skipped or fast-forwarded through most of the undercard, so if there was anything great there, please let me know. - I don't exactly love The Ascension, but having them lose to Sin Cara and Kalisto seems like such a waste of time to me. The "Lucha Dragons" would be a jobber team in any other era, and they only serve as a reminder now of how much better the Lucha and Cruiserweight scene in America was only a decade ago. - I liked the debut of Kenta, and I even dig the new Hideo Itami moniker. It rolls off the tongue nicely IMO. - As great as NXT is, and as much deserved praise as it gets, the undercard wrestlers that I witnessed were all pretty goofy and lame. I really hope they mature and evolve into better wrestlers and characters, because if that's the future of the WWE, we're in trouble. Too harsh? - Charlotte vs. Bayley was fun, and I really dig Bayley's character. Charlotte is improving but hasn't quite put it all together yet. I noticed a few jarring rookie mistakes, with the major one being the moonsault. When she landed, there was so much air between her and Bayley that it didn't feel impactful at all. Still, even though Charlotte isn't quite there yet, her potential is obvious. Bayley's too. - The main event was fun, but not what I'd call great by any means. I hate the WWE's typical formula for three- and four-way matches, with 1-2 wrestlers always on the outside for whatever reason. There has to be a better way to format these matches. Adrian Neville, as usual, was bland and pedestrian until he flew through the air, but that seems to be the only thing he has going for him. Am I wrong? Tyler Breeze is pretty good too, but the whole gimmick smacks of midcard to me. I see a ceiling with it. It probably doesn't help that he can't plausibly turn face with a character like that. Then again, that didn't seem to hurt Rick Rude too much. Sami Zayn and Tyson Kidd were the best two wrestlers in the match, and I'm glad to see a Neville/Zayn issue develop from this match. That should be fun!

I agree, but is there the danger of voters being "butthurt" because Punk "walked out on the business," "abandoned the fans," and all of the other junk I see posted online? I am guessing the WON voting block is a cut above that sort of thing, intelligence-wise, but it's still something that could potentially trip Punk up. I hope not. Whether he actually is worthy of being a first ballot WON HOFer, I'm not so sure on. Then again, we use "the Koko B. Ware rule" to justify a lot of the WWE HOF choices, so who is the WON's "Koko"?

Was the greatness of Savage/Steamboat hyped after the fact? Everyone who saw it knew immediately that is was one of the greatest, if not THE greatest, in US history at that point. I knew it as I watched it live on Closed Circuit that I was seeing something I had never seen before in my life. Right, but I mean hyped by the WWF. Did they promote it as one of the greatest matches ever right after it happened or did that come later?

I have a feeling some clueless WWE employee gave out Chromecasts because that was the cheapest option, not realizing that it's not officially supported. WWE's handling of the Network has been pretty clueless all around - bad advertising/shilling ($9.99!!!), an inability to properly explain how it works (some people probably still have no clue that you can watch it on a TV), inconsistent content uploads, a live channel schedule that feels like it was programmed by monkeys (there's no rhyme or reason to any of it), a clunky product that still feels like it's in the beta testing stages, and I could go on and on.

Might be too complicated, but I wouldn't mind an AFI (http://www.afi.com/100years/) type of system, where there are several lists for various categories. With AFI, there are things like best comedy, best musical, etc. I could see that working for wrestling too (best brawler, etc.). Might be way too much work though. Just throwing it out there anyway.

Didn't mean to imply that Steamboat wasn't a draw, but late-70s/early-80s money is not the same as mid/late-80s or Nitro-era money. My point was, Savage was a bigger draw, and there's a reason for that.

1. Regal's influence is a completely different argument, and he's influential in different ways for different reasons. People already in the system are influenced by Regal, which is great - don't get me wrong - but very few people grew up being inspired by him like they did with Savage/Steamboat. That doesn't make Regal horrible or inferior - I love him - but he doesn't have a match on his resume that had the same effect on so many people. I can't even buy that he wasn't put in a position to, because Savage/Steamboat was a midcard feud for a midcard belt (which meant a lot more back then, granted, but it wasn't the World Title match and it wasn't the main event). Regal and Steamboat are both shortsighted about the Savage match. 2. As for your feelings on ROH, if you took my comment as some sort of personal jab at your preferences...no, just no. Do you honestly expect me to memorize the likes and dislikes of everyone here on the board? I realize this is a really tight, close-knit community, which I love, but I can't say I know the ins and outs of everyone's tastes here. (I know Dylan adores Triple H though.) 3. Great wrestling is great wrestling, sure, but there's something to be said about matches with historical influence, that make kids want to become wrestlers, that those wrestlers emulate. Regal and Ohno have never been in such a match. And I say that while having much love for Regal. 4. I'll have to find a way to watch the Ohno match. I believe you when you say it was good. But the fact is, Ohno's no longer around for a reason. How do we know the match wasn't a total carry-job by Regal? Honest question. Can't argue with the awesomeness of Steamboat during the Dangerous Alliance era, and I think the Larry Z match was my favorite of Regal's too. Actually made me cheer the balding, obnoxious, lame old man golfer type that Larry was at the time, which is nothing short of miraculous. I credit that to Regal, who I liked even then, and he still made he cheer for Larry. Regal was a tremendous heel, if nothing else.

Anyone else let their WWE Network subscription run out? I really like the content, but the service itself feels like such an unpolished beta test. After six months, that simply isn't acceptable. Plus, Night of Champions doesn't pique my interest at all (though I'm sorry to be missing Takeover). I'll wait for the inevitable free week + deal.

Austin's status as an all-time great can't be disputed IMO. He morphed from "Stunning" Steve in WCW to "Stone Cold" in the WWF. Not only did he completely change his personality, he also changed his in-ring style - especially after his neck injury. His style post-injury was different, but I wouldn't say it was worse. He was still producing high quality at a rapid rate. Very few wrestlers are as versatile as he was. Not only that, but he was on or near the top for many years, and as consistent as anyone else during that time. He never got the push in WCW, but he had a very successful run there as a high profile upper midcarder with the Dangerous Alliance, Hollywood Blonds, etc. And no need to go into how successful he was as Stone Cold.

Those matches won't influence a generation of wrestlers though. What happens in the ring, IMO, is only one part of what makes a match great. This goes back to the WWE's incredibly ability to make its history matter (when it wants to, which it usually doesn't for NXT). And while I'll readily admit I haven't seen the match, I honestly have a hard time believing that a flabby, unmotivated Kassius Ohno was better than Steamboat or Macho Man at anything on any day. I get that these ROH indy guys have a following on the internet, but that seems like a pretty big stretch.

Did Tolos do any managing outside of his wretched "Coach" persona? If not, it might be unfair to judge him on 2-3 months of work for something he had never done before, while being saddled with a crappy gimmick to boot. Plus, he replaced Bobby Heenan - which is about the worst, most thankless spot you can get, because who could've possibly followed "The Brain"?

I'd argue that the element of surprise was increased. Tuning into Superstars on one random Saturday morning and having Mean Gene bring out Bret Hart as "the new World Wrestling Federation Champion" was absolutely mind-blowing to my 13-year-old self. There was no internet then, and I wasn't reading the sheets, so that was the first I'd heard of it - and it was shocking. It was cool that house shows actually mattered for once - which seems to be something the WWF experimented with over that year or two (Flair beating Savage a month or two before for the title, Diesel winning the belt from Backlund on a house show, Money Inc. getting the Tag Titles with Jimmy Hart as their new manager while Natural Disasters turned face, there were some Money Inc./Steiners switches, and I think a Men on a Mission title change happened on a house show too). A random Flair vs. Bret match on SNME wouldn't have drawn much interest before the fact (IMO) - it would have seemed out of place, almost - but of course getting an epic title change like that on free television would have been incredible.

Would it have been though? He didn't exactly light the wrestling world on fire when he eventually did join the WWE in late 1990 as General Adnan. I can't imagine that the WWE's approach to his character would have been radically different only five years earlier.

No, but it might exemplify wider reasons for why Savage was so far ahead of Steamboat in terms of drawing power. While Steamer was possibly stuck in his own bubble (as evidenced by his distaste for the WM match), Savage may have been more open to different possibilities and ways of doing things. Also, Savage clearly put a lot more thought and care into his character and presentation, while Ricky was sort of all over the place with that (from a scientific, no-frills family man to a kung-fu warrior to The Dragon with the fire, etc.). Of course, part of that is probably because of the power each wrestler wielded - Savage clearly had more say-so over his character than Steamboat would have. I love Steamboat as much as anyone else here, but I think it's healthy to analyze the shortcomings of some of these "sacred cow" wrestlers instead of pretending everything they did was perfect and above reproach. If I saw those, I don't remember them. That's not to say they were bad - I'm sure they were great - but it just goes to show you how behind the curveball WCW was when it came to creating and accentuating those "big moments." The WWE has shown complete mastery in that area. They've turned it into an art form. No other fed has come close in that department, although I will give credit to ECW for at least attempting to do the same with their moments. WCW, TNA, etc. are clueless about such things, and that's why one is out of business and the other will possibly be soon. I kind of touched on the same thing above. WM3 was a "big moment" because the WWE Machine knows how to create those better than any other company in the world (wrestling or not). However, was the greatness of Savage/Steamboat hyped after the fact, or did that sort of build in reputation over the years? As for WCW never having a show as big as WM3, I argue that Starrcade '97 could have been that show for them, but WCW being WCW, of course it wasn't.