dawho5

I think now more than ever in American wrestling athletic ability is at a premium. If you can't do something that will wow a crowd physically, you're not going to get anywhere. I see two major factors here. 1. The death of kayfabe. Before, we had the idea presented to us that this was a competition. These guys were really interested in winning these matches because they wanted to either a. get involved in a title picture or b. show up their bitter rival. So when that element of "why someone is fighting" goes away and it's just two guys out there for an athletic exhibition, the story becomes less important than how much you can wow the crowd. 2. The way the WWE books. No one person matters. Wins and losses are unimportant. Titles are marginally important. The one thing everybody wants is that Wrestlemania Momenttm. Not so they can say they won the title, but so they can say they won at mania. Because it's Wrestlemania. It doesn't help that no coherent story has developed for anyone that lasts more than a month or two. With those two things in mind, where is a worker going to find the underlying story to put into their matches that gives them the added oomph? What they have to do to get noticed is have spots the crowd pops for each and every time and that's about the best they can hope for is to get a reaction. Seems like a formula for technically sound, physically spectacular, but at the end of the day meaningless matches. As far as Japan goes, my watching of post-2000 wrestling in Japan led me to the conclusion that the big name 90s heroes were the driving force behind all of it. The tropes seem like a mishmash of AJPW and NJPW styles of that era to pop crowds likely raised on those styles of wrestling. It's one thing to pay homage to the heroes of the past. It's quite another to base a style mostly on the easily picked up aspects of a few others without any of the small details or connecting parts or knowledge of why these things are being done. To me it comes off as an uninspired attempt at resurrecting the past.

Satanico vs. Shiro Koshinaka 7/30/84 Satanico playing de facto tecnico?? He's surprisingly awesome at it. Kosh is all over him and won't let up, then wins with one of the more slick backslides I've seen, playing off of the earlier arm work. Satanico bloodies Kosh and is just as merciless, but to the fans delight for a change, to even things up. Kosh gets ervenge and bloodies Satanico worse and we're off to the races. I thought the finish was fun in an odd way. A rudo claiming foul and it actually _was_ a foul by the other guy. Certainly not what I wanted, but fun. El Satanico y Espectro Jr. v. El Faraon y La Fiera 8/12/84 Satanico jumps Faraon to make sure he's not going to get too much sympathy later. Faraon gets the two on one beatdown until Fiera comes flying in and it's Satanico's turn to take a beating. And we get another Satanico as the de facto tecnico performance that is amazing. His punching comebacks in this match are second only to Lawler's that I've seen. He comes up a little short and ends up taking a brutal looking double team to really piss off the crowd. Espectro looks to be making a comeback, especially after he makes Fiera miss. Fuck me, Fiera really doesn't care if he kills himself out there. I need to see more of this crazy dude. Faraon, like any good rudo, takes advantage of an opening and splats Espectro for the countout. Faraon trying to revive Fiera while Satanico is just laying there next to both and Espectro is dead on the floor is such a great, great finish. If this didn't have video issues it may be my match of the set so far. Gran Cochise vs. Satanico 9/14/84 First fall was really good with Satanico finally capitalizing on arm work despite Cochise fighting back. Cochise gives the armwork right back and both are selling it extremely well. Third fall both guys do such a great job of selling the exhaustion and damage done so far. Great chess match style work also, with a few attempt -> reversal -> reversal into the intended move spots that play really well for me. I think Exposer nailed it when he said "it looks like Satanico really is fighting for a championship." The dive spot and the tease beforehand was really brilliant. This is behind MS1 vs. Sangre Chicana and right on par with Mocho Cota vs. Americo for best on the set so far. Satanico is so great at walking that line between evil bastard and a guy you really want to get behind because he just refuses to quit despite the odds. To me his selling is great not just for the obvious reasons, but because he does just enough of it to be more of a "tweener" type without crossing over into the territory of being a tecnico. Oh, and that knee to the back by Cochise was pretty brilliant. I still think it would have been hard to pull that switch off with anybody besides Satanico.

Lizmark vs. El Satanico April 1984 Lizmark hurting Satanico's neck in the first caida was a great setup for what seemed like Satanico barely surviving the second caida. Third caida sees Lizmark go right back at Satanico and come *this close* to getting the win, but Satanico won't stay down. Lizmark's planchas are probably the most incredible version of that move I've ever seen. He's unbelievably graceful. Finish drags the match down for me. Atlantis/Lizmark vs. El Faraon/El Egipcio 2/17/84 Fun brawl with Faraon leading the way. Sets up a match on disc 3 with the pre-match brawling. Atlantis and Lizmark are great tecnicos. Thos kicks by Egipcio are pretty pathetic. Stick to the punches.

I hated leaving Montreal empty, but I'm glad somebody who is way more familiar with the territory picked it up. You're knocking it out of the park so far. I tried to add aspects of what Montreal was to what I wanted to do, but you seem to be more focused on staying true to the wrestling in the area. One thing I can tell you is that I built up King Tonga huge, so you can capitalize on that.

I would think that it is far more beneficial to me as a wrestling fan (and in other areas of life) to be open to at least consider somebody else's viewpoint on a topic. I have, in scope, a very limited view of things based on my experiences. If reading several intelligently written pieces on any topic I either hadn't considered before or had dismissed as not worth my time doesn't at least make me think about it again something is wrong. At best I'm going back to see if maybe I hadn't seen whatever it was in the right light and I can, at the very least, respect what was done in a match (if we're talking wrestling) even if I don't care to watch it that much. To me it's not about letting other people's opinions influence me. It's about seeing something a different way and maybe learning something new. I may not, but it's hard to argue that taking up to 20 to 30 minutes of my day to re-watch (or watch for the first time) a match and understand it better isn't worth my time.

Agreed, there is a very short clip of the ending of a Misawa/Kawada singles match from that time period that makes me think it could have been one of their better matches. I think it was the one that should have been a CC match but for whatever reason didn't count. I want to say 4/11/94. Either way, Misawa is bleeding as we cut into the match and I have this burning need to know how and what happened when he started coming back.

Mocho Cota vs. Americo Rocca 2/3/84 So let me get this straight. Mocho Cota is a world class mat wrestler AND plays an amazing evil genius character this well? Add the great punch, the spectacular dive and the awesome selling to that and I'm pretty sure dude got robbed in the GWE. Nothing against Americo Rocca, just Cota is a force of freaking nature in these two matches. Atlantis/Lizmark vs. El Faraon/El Egipcio 2/17/84 I watched this as I was falling asleep last night. Missed half of it so can't say much. Reviews suggest a rewatch is in order. Faraon/Herodes/Mocho Cota vs. Lizmark/Ringo Mendoza/Tony Salazar 2/24/84 Salazar getting pasted for the first two caidas is brilliant work by the rudos. He's just a mess and completely and totally gone. Mendoza makes the big comeback and here comes Salazar! His revenge on Herodes was all kinds of incredible. Herodes with more footage would have to be included in the best fat guys ever discussion. Salazar punting Herodes in the balls was the perfect ending to this. Solar/Ultraman/Super Astro vs. Sergio El Hermoso/Bello Greco/Rudy Reyna 2/26/84 Whoever the rudo in the red trunks is has a great chickenshit comedy routine. That chase around the ring into a back elbow was beautiful. Can't tell the tecnicos apart, but I think the one who does the worse than Tenryu visually enzuigiris is Ultraman based on the later singles. Whoever does that massive dive with an assist should get a damn medal. Enrique Vera vs. Dos Caras 2/26/84 Didn't think the world of Dos Caras. Vera with a little bit of heelish behavior at the end after the flash pin, but ends up congratulating Caras anyway. Most of the match was a little dry for me with no rudos around. Jerry Estrada vs. Ultraman 3/2/84 Estrada's work on the arm was very, very good. If I hadn't watched Mocho Cota put on a clinic twice already I'd say great. Ultraman taking Estrada lightly at the beginning after countering out of some things seems to lead to the upset first caida loss for the veteran. Estrada is pretty damn good here for being two years into his career. He seemed like he kept up with Ultraman every step of the way. Tony Salazar vs. Herodes 3/2/84 First two caidas are good but forgettable, except for an excellent King of the Mountain by Herodes. Third caida is an absolute bloodbath! I LOVED the way both sold throughout even while they were getting offense in. And I really, really hope that guy in the first row sitting between where both guys landed after the Herodes dive (!!!!!) went to the hospital and got himself checked afterwards. Herodes stumbling around on the floor after being bloodied was great, great stuff. How exactly was Salazar able to stand at the end of this? Or Herodes for that matter?

This one brought back memories of the Memphis set for me. I loved when Koko showed up all the way across the board and the Fabs never disappoint. Those balls-to-the-wall style brawls need to make a comeback in the WWE.

I am with Chad on the Atlantis/Satanico match. The blood! The payback spots! Atlantis doing a turnaround splash off the top that didn't make the opponent stand there waiting like a dumbass!! The GREAT brawling in the third caida! That slugfest was incredible and placed perfectly in the match. Also, Satanico really impressed. Not taking anything away from Atlantis, but this match belongs to Satanico. The January Mocho Cota vs. Americo Rocca match was great stuff as well. First caida was some of my favorite matwork ever. Cota continually going back to the arm while he tried to set up something else was great stuff. Also, that DIVE! Ending sets up a rematch well.

The thing for me about this, brilliance of everything that happened, is how WCW immediately went about destroying any kind of gains they might have made. I mean, of course Hogan and Nash need to be the focal points of the promotion. Not as if anybody else could ever be over enough to be in that spot.

I always wondered about all the big names that made their way over to TNA. Did Vince learn just how much of a cancer all of these guys (Hogan, Bischoff, Nash, Hall) could be when they killed WCW for him through their own failings? Did Vince ever figure that by leaving them unsigned he was inviting TNA to destroy itself by hiring them? I won't say it's a 100% sure thing, but I could see it being true.

Personally I find that GIF to be overly choreographed and way overdone. It's very impressive they can do that. But to my tastes it's not pro wrestling. I can also see the flip side where people who like that kind of thing really love it and don't understand Vader's reaction at all. And if the crowd is popping for it, maybe it's the right thing to do in front of that crowd. I can see that sort of thing being used early in a show to get a crowd more into things. if you watch some Kobashi/Kroffat sequences from a midcard AJPW singles match on the big tour ender, they were doing a less acrobatic, but probably more cutting edge for 1993 than that stuff is now, version of that. It clearly wasn't meant to be an all time classic, just a fun match to get the crowd buzzing. A lot of the Mysterio/Blitzkreig/Juvi/Psicosis stuff from WCW seemed aimed at the same target. So there is a place for that brand of wrestling, even if it's not my idea of what wrestling ought to be. Gonna go back the other direction and say that I think wrestling is moving more and more towards the "moar flipz" type of work as time goes on. It's becoming much more an athletic exhibition than an exercise in storytelling. It has been for quite a while if I'm not totally wrong. Watching the 80s footage, you always had your workers who were ahead of their time with their use of a much wider variety of spots than had been used in the 70s. Then you go to the 90s with the junior heavyweights/cruisers bringing in the dives and the more fast-paced offense. As the 2000s go on, there is a definite trend among the lighter guys to constantly add in spots that topped things done even a year or two in the past. It's become less about the "why" something is being done and more about the "what" is being done. Something the martial art I am learning stresses is knowing why you are doing something. It gives the movements you do that added meaning (which ends up completely changing how they look, feel to do and land) that doesn't come through if you're just going through a sequence of motions. You can be as well-versed on the technique as you want, but if you don't know why you're doing it, it's going to look like an exhibition to anybody watching. And that's the thing that kills me about a lot of modern wrestling.

Great write-up on Hash! I've always seen that quality in him and not known how to describe it.

Possibly fatal, depending on how hard you are able to do it. I would say that it's not a very "pro wrestling" type move. It's not flashy/big enough to really compete with even stuff like a lariat or a rolling elbow.

My personal feeling on the nature of American bias is a little different. I think that it's an earlier point in wrestling fandom than the more broad, all-inclusive view of things. If you haven't seen the volume of lucha, WoS, shootstyle, joshi, etc. in comparison to the mainstream U.S. wrestling then it's hard to feel comfortable ranking those people ahead of somebody you are able to quantify in relation to their contemporaries. Whereas you can look at somebody like Arn Anderson and know exactly where you want to put him because he's a guy that worked in an era where a lot of stuff was recorded and televised. So you as a fan know exactly where Arn sits for you in the pecking order because you've watched his matches for as long as you've been a wrestling fan and you know how he compares to Bobby Eaton or Flair or a ton of other wrestlers you can name. But if you watched maybe ten Casas, Santo, Blue Panther, Virus, etc. matches each, you may have a vague idea of where you want to put each in relation to one another. But is lucha something you're ready to put up in the top 10 or 20 yet? Would you feel comfortable, looking at the sheer volume of lucha you consumed for the project, ranking Casas above somebody like Arn when you know exactly why Arn belongs where he does? Sure Casas seems really great, but can a person truly justify putting him that high based on such a limited sampling when they've seen the length and breadth of the "mainstream" wrestlers careers? You would have to be an incredibly open minded voter to have that kind of mindset. And given the amount of emphasis that was put on being thorough and voting with some standards in mind, seems that might actually go against the spirit of the project. I do agree with a lot of things you touch on, but I thought there needed to be some kind of counterpoint on that talking point. The bit about voting based on accepted perceptions of wrestlers seemed pretty spot on to me. But like you say, wrestling is a business based very heavily on perception and manipulation of it so that seems like a natural thing.

I'd say Bock did great for us not having his prime on tape. His average vote was among the highest we've seen so far. And he jumped spots from 2006. And he was on 132 out of 151 ballots. That seems like a victory in and of itself. This along with the idea that, yes, people had just discovered him and couldn't justify putting him higher on the amount of footage they had watched, tells me that Bock (and Casas looking at his average) did very well. I think there is a benefit to looking at the list in ways other than "who ranked above and below them." For people who have not been the mainstream guys, it's going to seem like they got the short end of the stick. There was a great post a few pages back about "mainstream" being how most people got into wrestling. So if people are more in the beginning stages of exploring their options, yeah their list is going to be a little more mainstream focused. I think it pays to look at average vote and movement from 2006 as well as actual placement. Edit: CapitalT, that Eddie write-up was great stuff man.

Seems like we're trying to lighten the mood a bit. I thought Bret was great in 97. The way he portrayed his heel character was really innovative for pro wrestling (would be even now.) I agree that it's not enough for top 20, but I am clearly in the minority. I can accept that and disagree with the majority vote.

He made the Patriot seem like a viable opponent for a few matches. In case it was missed, the point of my earlier post was this: There are more than a few people whose negative reactions to the way the list has gone seems like it might give the impression that a lot of people voted "wrong." And maybe the process is bad because wrestler X couldn't possibly be ranked below wrestler Y. Think about it like this. Look at one of the other people whose reactions have been similar to yours on different wrestlers. Did you give those wrestlers the time and attention that this other person thinks they deserved over the course of the project? If not, does this make you maybe think this kind of reaction is a bit overblown? I'm not trying to take a shot at anyone, just trying to push the discussion away from the overly negative direction it's gone lately.

Here's the thing guys. There were over 150 ballots this time. And as much as it is being bemoaned that not everyone "did their homework," which is probably true, it was never required on the ballot that you watched a bunch of matches featuring everybody. So if the general thought here is that the list is too mainstream....if you get three times the amount of ballots from a lot of sources that's what you are going to get. As jdw has said before we are a niche of a niche of a niche. In this particular corner of the internet the idea that footage has to be watched before judgements can be made. Can that be said for wherever a good third of these votes if not more came from? So I think a few things that have been mentioned earlier on in the reactions and forgotten should be repeated. 1. Your list is going to be the definitive list in your mind. You aren't going to agree with where your favorites fall if they aren't very well-known to a large percentage of fans. The more people who vote, the more true this statement is. So if you want the "we are the smart guys" poll, you're gonna have to find a host who isn't Grimmas. 2. If you want to look at the list a different way, look at the placements within each style. Who are the top guys in WoS? NJPW 90s? Lucha? Women in Joshi? And it goes on. This will give you a relative idea of who the people who watched these styles voted for. And I'll repeat myself for good measure. There is a bias towards U.S. workers. There are also 100 more ballots than last time. From 100 people who may or may not have decided to dive into lucha, WoS, shootstyle, BatBat, whatever it may be. I can gaurantee you that the more ballots you get in something like this, the more focused on U.S. workers it's going to be. So look for cases like Casas where he got a very high average among his voters as your positives. And if you really want to see a list where everything is "fair" to your guys, guess what. You have to watch everything else. Everything. And be fair in judging it. And not let your personal biases tell you that your guy at the beginning is still the guy despite everything you've seen. You would have to objectively come to this conclusion by watching enough of every nominee. And I'm not completely disagreeing with the complaints about Buddy Rose or Casas or Hash. They deserve to be higher. But the reality of this kind of deal is going to dictate that they place in a disappointing spot. Unless you go all "elitist" with your process and demand a rigorous process from every voter.

Jun's had been escalating as well. Jun's work in 1996 after moving up to be Misawa's primary partner is quite a distance beyond his 1993 work. It went on from there to his Triple Crown matches in 1997 & 1998. Absolutely true, which is why I separated him from the rest. Jun had just joined the party, so to speak, in 96, where the other four had been building on prior stuff for years by that point. Was in no way trying to undermine Akiyama, just making the point that he hit that level later than the rest.

Bingo. If you have something to say and can say it in a way where you don't insult somebody else, don't hesitate. There probably will be people who disagree with you or call you crazy. Hell, I actually agree that I was crazy for certain opinions expressed on this board in the past. I'm glad I was corrected on my blind Kobashi hate and thank the guys who did that for me.