dawho5

I'm gonna put up $10,000 for whoever can hurt ____ (usually a top babyface).

I am 100% in agreement with Gene. I know it seems like a lot of time in addition to the writing and planning, but it's important that you read the other promotions. I always tried to find details I liked or didn't care for. Character stuff, booking decisions, odd card orders, whatever might have caught my eye. It's stuff like that when people gave me feedback on my shows that showed me what I was doing that made sense to the reader/viewer and what I may have gotten wrong. I didn't immediately change everything that was mentioned didn't work for people or throw everything people liked to the forefront, but it gave me a little perspective at least. We are all going to look at our booking through one set of eyes and that can lead to a lot of bad things. If you don't think so, see: modern WWE. So the feedback seems like a great way of seeing it through somebody else's eyes and tweaking things however much seems right. There are very large weaknesses to the way I had my TV booked, things I wouldn't have seen on my own and started moving away from slowly that were pointed out to me as I went. Given the chance to do things over I would make some very major and very minor changes to things, largely due to feedback. So even if all your feedback isn't positive, just keep it aimed at the actual aspect of the written show you didn't like. Suggest things you think might help. You can give that kind of feedback without being mean or having to be really roundabout. Just say things like "___ didn't work for me." Generally the writer will be more than willing to give some kind of reasoning and discussion can be had from there. It's usually when somebody starts outright insulting the shows that things become hostile.

Watch the two Dump matches in Loss's joshi thread. Amazing stuff.

On rewatch there is something else about the moonsault. Yes it is beautifully set up and yes it caps off an amazing Kobashi comeback, but I love another wrinkle to it. It kills Kobashi for the purposes of being useful in the match. His knee is shot after doing it. He spends the rest of the match crawling and hobbling around after utlimately killing the knee himself by trying to pull off the miracle win with the moonsault. He tries valiantly to use his own body to shield Misawa long enough to give him time for a comeback, but it's too far gone. I do agree that at a certain point with Matt that what these four are doing has to implode because of how much they were already doing. And it did, in ways that I think Japanese wrestling is still dealing with today. But this match is an incredible piece of wrestling history, perfectly executed in so many ways and I'm almost willing to accept that it's matches like these that inspired the decadence that followed.

Seems like he wasn't near as interested in dives and top rope shit, more just building towards his finisher as the match went on. I dug the wakigatame takedown, knowing that the defense to the move would likely be Ohtani flipping to his back, which opened up the armbar. Stuff like that gives the impression of an actual strategy being worked while looking for his finisher instead of just "big bombs" to wear the guy down.

The Von Erichs and Freebirds continue to feud after the 'birds lose the 6 man titles and Buddy loses his hair to Iceman. King Tonga takes 10+ minutes to beat JTTS guys in 1985 and 86 in the WWF. The Moondog Spot match as a nice little brawl and the British jobber was a completely different match than anything else, not bad at all. And he slams Big John Studd, even if it doesn't count because he wasn't part of the challenge that week. A young El Samurai is a complete dick to Liger in 92 and ends up wearing his mask like a collar for 2/3 of the match. Brody and Abdullah take a few strolls around a stadium in PR between bloddying each other up. Kendo Ka Shin and Ohtani put together one of the best (easily one of the most focused) finish runs in a 90s juniors match I have ever seen. It was half the length of the match but brilliantly done. Did I sleep on Ka Shin all these years or is this just a one off? Santo and Psicosis battle in a (non-apuestas) AAA title match with some insane dives and only two caidas?? Chiggy and Dump see who is going to get a haircut!

That's a good one Smack. There has to be one with the announcer(s) talking about how resilient whatever wrestler taking punishment currently is, superhuman almost, way above what we can expect even from an average wrestler. Even if they say that about 2/3 of the wrestlers in said promotion at the time.

I'm not sure he was scolding. Just pointing out where things have gone wrong so far. I would agree with the idea that things should be set the way they are going to be at some point.

_______ just came within one second of winning the World Championship!

I have yet to watch the matches, but I am just wrapping up the podcast. On Marty's point about the build of the feud, it doesn't seem like it's a coincidence that Santana was involved in a feud like that. His Valentine singles feud is also well-remembered, seemingly for a lot of the same reasons. Also, it seems like Martel is big on putting a lot of energy into his matches, which makes you think he's willing to invest more than the average wrestler into a feud or match. So you put them into a feud with guys who are going to put the effort in and it's going to pay off.

Have a great day everybody! Whether you celebrate Thanksgiving or not I hope you get the chance to spend time with family and friends. I third the thanks for starting the best wrestling message board on the 'net and extend that to all of the people who are a part of it and help keep it that way.

I'm going to again say that my roster should be drafted. There are two other (one recently) open promotions besides and leaving all those guys sitting seems silly. The voting was for "general draft & leaving promotions for new writers as necessary." If more are against it than for it, that's fine. Here's where my guys will be in the near future. Goldie Rogers 11/10 - 2/28 Southwest Can Ams ( Brunzell & Lafon) 11/16 - 12/7 Japan Lefebvre/Dewey Robertson 11/24 - 12/13 Japan Can Ams 12/8 - 1/10 AWA Midnights 12/14-17 Mid South

International Wrestling November 25th, 183 (Taped November 23rd, 1983, Colisée de Trois-Rivieres, Trois-Rivieres, QC) 3500 fans, sellout Opening Interview/Matches 0:00 - 10:30 The opening montage leads to a shot of Dave Kochen in the ring with Jacques, Sr. Kochen is clearly feeling the effects of the beating he received at the hands of Goldie Rogers two weeks ago. Jacques, Sr.: Mr. Kochen it is good to see you again. Two weeks ago you had an absolute war with Goldie Rogers and we haven’t seen either of you since. Kochen: It was a Hell of a match, Jacques, Sr. He put as good a beating on me as I’ve ever taken, but I never gave up. Jacques, Sr.: It seems to me you had a plan going into that match. Kochen: Yeah, Rogers is always so concerned about his face and his hair. He thinks he’s some kind of ladies’ man. I thought if I could bust him open, he’d think better of it. Jacques, Sr.: And it worked out that you were right. Let’s hope that Rogers doesn’t hold a grudge for very long. He’s a man with quite a vicious streak. Kochen: That much I know, Jacques, Sr. But I don’t think we’ll be seeing much of him for a while. When a man runs away from a match in front of that big of a crowd, not to mention the TV audience, he’s not going to show his face for a while. Jacques, Sr.: I can only hope you’re right, Mr. Kochen. Dave Kochen, ladies and gentlemen. Let’s hear it for a double tough young man who made good! The crowd cheers big for Kochen as Jacques, Sr. exits the ring and heads to the announce table. Tim Gerrard comes out to almost no reaction at all. Dave Kochen vs. Tim Gerrard Kochen takes the majority of the match, working over the ribs of Gerrard. Marcus makes a short comeback, catching Kochen with a rollup for a two. Kochen took control again, hit a vertical suplex and put Gerrard in an abdominal stretch for the victory. Dave Kochen by submission with an abdominal stretch 4:15 Jacques, Sr. Calls that an impressive victory for an impressive young man as Kochen has a short celebration in the ring. The camera cuts to Jacques, Sr. and he talks about the rest of the card. Dino Bravo will be in a big 8 man tag in the main event! Back in the ring, Steve Regal awaits his opponent and it is the debuting Brad Rheingans. Kochen and Rhengans pass one another in the entrance aisle and Kochen stops just short of the curtain to watch the match. Rheingans gets very little reaction from the crowd. Jacques, Sr. puts Rheingans over as an Olympic level amateur wrestler. Brad Rheingans vs. Steve Regal Rheingans shows off his amateur skills in controlling the match early. Regal is able to get in some offense by cheating, but Rheingans is simply too much for him. Rheingans finishes Regal off with a belly to belly suplex with a lot of snap. Brad Rheingans by pinfall after a belly to belly suplex 4:07 Kochen, still in the entrance aisle, applauds the efforts of Rheingans. Jacques, Sr. is impressed with the young man’s skill in the ring. Commercial Break 10:30 - 20:00 We come back from commercial to a shot of the ring with Mike Sharpe entering the arena. He gets a small reaction and Jacques, Sr. is impressed with the man’s conditioning & physique. Joel Deaton comes out to some boos and ignores the fans. Jacques, Sr. isn’t sure the big boot Deaton has been using to knock people out around Quebec is entirely legal. Mike Sharpe vs. Joel Deaton The two big men (280 and 290) lock up and attempt to use their strength to overwhelm one another. Sharpe takes the first advantage, working over Deaton’s arm for a while. Deaton comes back, attacking Sharpe’s neck with holds and brawling. Sharpe appears to be getting the advantage back when he runs into a Deaton big boot and goes down hard. Deaton covers for the three. Joel Deaton by pinfall after a big boot 7:31 Sharpe is still out when Deaton has exited ringside to the back and Jacques, Sr. has to believe that Deaton has something in that boot. Commercial Break 20:00 - 31:00 Quebec Heavyweight Champion Richard Charland & Dan Johnson are making their way to the ring as the crowd boos when we return from commercial. Jacques, Sr. is sick of seeing Charland with the belt. Louis Laurence and Tony Ricco come out of the back to cheers, playing to the fans as they walk to the ring. Jacques, Sr. talks about how both men have come close to taking that title away from Charland. Predictably, Charland and Johnson attack pre-match but the faces turn it around on them quickly. Louis Laurence & Tony Ricco vs. Quebec Heavyweight Champion Richard Charland & Dan Johnson Referee Pierre Bertrand has his hands full getting things settled down, but manages to get it down to Ricco and Johnson in the ring, Ricco taking it to Johnson with right hands and tagging to Laurence. Johnson fights back, but the faces use quick tags to keep control until Charland cheapshots Ricco, giving Johnson the chance to tag out. Charland and Johnson work on Ricco’s neck with headlocks, Charland often cheating to keep Ricco from getting any kind of momentum built up for a comeback. Ricco crawls between Johnson’s legs and tags Laurence, but Charland has Bertrand distracted and he doesn’t see the tag. Laurence finally takes the hot tag and runs over both Charland and Johnson. Laurence knocks Johnson off the apron a second time, but Charland uses that distraction to get behind Laurence and roll him backwards into a pinning combination and grabs two handfuls of tights for the three. Richard Charland by pinfall over Laurence with an O’Connor roll with two handfuls of tights 9:22 Laurence is furious, but Charland rolls out of the ring, grabs his belt and retreats up the aisle quickly with Johnson, taunting Laurence as the crowd boos. Jacques, Sr. can’t hide his disgust with Charland and his underhanded tactics. Commercial Break 31:00 - 48:00 Mad Dog Lefebvre and Gilles Poisson are on their way to the ring when we come back from commercial. Neither seems very happy and the boos from the crowd don’t help. Jacques, Sr. talks about how both have been upset with the other for taking pinfall losses lately. Lefebvre had asked for this match as a last chance for Poisson to prove to him that he was a good partner. Quebec TV Tag Team Champions The Tongan Terrors come out with Lou Albano to near-deafening boos. Albano and his charges soak in the boos, Albano getting pelted with garbage just after reaching ringside. Jacques, Sr. isn’t sure this is the team for Lefebvre & Poisson to regain their momentum against, given their recent history. Lafebvre and Poisson attack the two tongans on their way into the ring. Quebec TV Tag Team Champions The Tongan Terrors vs. Mad Dog Lefebvre & Gilles Poisson in a title match (15 minute time limit) The attack only seems to enrage the Tongans, but Lefebvre and Poisson fight like men possessed. Lefebvre and Tonga John are both busted open halfway through the match. Head referee Adrian Desbois has stretches of several minutes where he can keep two wrestlers in the ring, but the match always breaks down sooner rather than later. Lefebvre and Tonga John spill outside, leaving Poisson and King Tonga in the ring. Poisson grabs the King for a bearhug after clothesline, but the Tongan wrestler jambs his thumb into the side of Poisson’s neck, hitting a nerve. King Tonga covers for a three count. King Tonga by pinfall over Poisson with a thumb spike 13:52 Lefebvre, realizing what happened, slides into the ring and gets in Poisson’s face. Poisson shoves him and Lefebvre comes back with a right hand to his partner. Albano pulls his charges back, glaring at the area of the crowd where he was pelted with garbage from earlier. Poisson and Lefebvre brawl to the floor, Lefebvre bouncing Poisson’s head of of the ringpost and straddling him, raining down punches. Security and half the locker room rush ringside just after Poisson reverses positions and starts punching down on Lefebvre. Albano sees his opportunity and orders the Terrors into the crowd he had been eyeing earlier. King Tonga and Tonga John grab chairs and menace the people in the crowd, even swinging wildly at a few of the bigger men in the crowd. The 280 pound Poisson is finally pulled off of Lefebvre, both bloody and half of the men who came out to ringside run over to contain the Tongan Terrors in the crowd. Albano is in the ring with a mic. Albano: Last week we showed anyone who cares to watch what happens when you make us angry. Frank Valois hit us with a huge fine, but do you think we care? We’re the TV champions! These men you see out at ringside are doing well despite Frank Valois’ efforts to make our lives miserable. In fact, I think they’re having as much fun as they ever do in the ring right now. Let’s hear it for your TV champions! Most of the crowd boos, those that aren’t fleeing from the chairs swinging wildly back and forth as the Terrors hold off the security force. Lefebvre and Poisson have been separated and are being escorted to the back as more security makes it’s way to the Tongans. Jacques, Sr. can’t believe the pandemonium and hopes things will be cleared up when we return from commercial. Commercial Break 48:00 - 50:00 Jacques, Sr. is in the backstage interview area flanked by Poisson and Lefebvre, each with three members of security around to keep them from fighting. By the looks of both that is a necessary precaution. Jacques, Sr.: Welcome back fans, we are still trying to get ringside cleared up and want to take this time to speak with Gilles Poisson and Mad Dog Lefebvre. Gentlemen, you two have been tag team partners for some time. It seems like that has come to an end. Poisson: It didn’t have to go this way, Pierre. But you just couldn’t let go of whatever got into you after the Vachon match. Lefebvre: What got into me?? Nothing got into me, old man. You have been dragging me down since we started teaming and it took that match to make me see it! Poisson: Dragged you down!? I watched your back. I helped you win matches! You ungrateful little- The two nearly come to blows but are pulled back by security. Poisson: We are done! Lefebvre: Damn right we are! I’m going to find a real tag partner! When I have one of those Canadian International Tag Team belts around my waist everyone will know that you held me back for too long! Lefebvre stomps off angrily, pushing the security personnel aside. The six men stay off to one side now. Jacques, Sr.: That could have gone better, Gilles, but this seems like it has been coming for some time. Poisson; I don’t know what got into him, Jacques. Things were- Poisson is hit from behind as Lefebvre flies back into the shot. Lefebvre starts beating down on Poisson, but the big man stands up and starts brawling with Lefebvre. Security, recovering from the initial shock, rush in and break it up. Jacques, Sr.: Fans, we have certainly had a wild show tonight and it doesn’t look to be getting any better. Up next we have our main event, an eight man tag featuring Dino Bravo, Gino Brito and the Midnight Express! Commercial Break & Upcoming Events 50:00 - 65:00 The teams of Dino Bravo, Gino Brito, Tony Parisi & Armand Rougeau and Canadian International Tag Team Champions The Midnight Express & Earth and Sky are in the ring when we come back from commercial. Creatchman is at ringside yelling at Jacques, Sr. about his champions again wrestling on television. Dino Bravo, Gino Brito, Tony Parisi & Armand Rougeau vs. Canadian International Tag Team Champions The Midnight Express & Earth and Sky The brawl is on early as Bravo and Brito go right at the Midnight Express. Referee Pierre Bertrand cannot get things settled down as Parisi and Rougeau brawl with Earth and Sky on the floor. Bravo isolates Rose after a short while and the faces use quick tags to work him over. Brito’s aggression gets the better of him and he winds up chasing Rose right into a 3 on one attack in the heel corner. Brito is the victim of a beatdown by all four of Creatchman’s charges. He tries punching his way out of trouble only for Kamiguchi to dropkick him in the back after coming into the ring to cut him off. Kamiguchi ends up eating Brito’s right hands as well, but Condrey grabs him by the tights just in time to stop a tag. Brito finally makes the tag to Armand, who comes in and lays into the entire heel team with right hands. Kamiguchi distracts Rougeau long enough for Ishimoto to hit a loaded headbutt, but Bravo is quick to break up the pin attempt. Armand takes a big beating from the heels, focused mainly on his neck. He gets cut off multiple times before tagging in Bravo. The crowd erupts as Bravo comes in and destroys everything in front of him. Brito and Parisi attack Condrey and Ishimoto on the floor while Bravo uses the airplane spin on Kamiguchi. Kamiguchi rolls to the floor after being dumped by Bravo and Armand flies in with a dropkick to Rose’s back as he is close to blindsiding Bravo. Rougeau turns Rose over and starts raining punches down on his face. Bertrand forces Armand out of the ring, but the youngster climbs up to the top rope from the apron and comes flying off with a fist drop as Bravo urges hmi on and gets the crowd behind him. Bravo picks up Rose for an airplane spin, getting the three after letting him hit the mat. Dino Bravo over Randy Rose with an airplane spin 14:47 Jacques, Sr. is ecstatic on commentary, calling this a major victory for the IWA over Creatchman and his group. Remember to tune in next week when Brito & Parisi and the Midnight Express face off in a six man tag! Dark matches Pre-Show Rene Goulet defeated Joe Marcus with a scorpion claw hold Jake Roberts defeated Bob marcus with a DDT

Amazing match, that. One of Taue's better singles matches in my mind.

Stellar work on this topic again. It could be because this is a period of wrestling I experienced as it happened, but this is one of my favorite topics in a podcast and the four of you always seem to do it well.

I don't recall saying that it hurt WCCW. My point was that it may hurt our viewing of the matches in later years rather than help it. I think it helped WCCW because it was what the fans wanted to see.

I didn't notice it against Flair either. They seemed to make sure that the champ looked good when he came through. They got their licks in for sure, but when the time came to make Flair look like he truly was the man they did just that. I just don't think it applied to people within the territory that they were feuding with.

I recently started my WCCW watchings and some criticisms of the Von Erichs jumped out at me right away as not way off. They do have a tendency to not be truly "in peril" very often. Sure, Kerry will make it look like Flair has him in real danger. But it seems like even against the Freebirds there is a distinct lack of true danger to Kevin, Kerry or David. They just don't give the impression that all three Freebirds beating up on one Von Erich is anything more than a temporary setback. I will also say that the family was over enough that they had no real need to do that. The whole point is to build sympathy and make the crowd desperately want to see the faces come back. I would venture to guess that you give the Freebirds (or anyone else) about a minute of mostly sustained offense and the crowd is going to explode when whatever Von Erich is in the ring starts brawling back. So in a lot of ways, to me at least, this is something that forgives the often long shine/short heat structure of the matches in WCCW. It's what the fans seem to want to see and keeps them showing up. Even if it doesn't seem like the optimal way of putting a match together to some of us as wrestling fans now I think that we have to look at it through the lens of the 1980s WCCW fan. Did those fans really want to see Hayes, Gordy and Roberts beating up on one Von Erich for seven or eight minutes straight? Or did they want to see their beloved Von Erichs kicking ass and taking names? I know Loss has talked about trying to judge matches and wrestlers based on the conditions of the time and I think this territory is a prime example of that. Thoughts?

Lawler/Dundee LLT in 86 is a finish I don't like tacked on to a great match. Drops the match down a fair bit for me. Kerry/Flair on Christmas of 82 had a finish that made me like the match more than some of the body of the match. It accomplished a lot of what they set out to do without going overboard like the body of the match. Brock/Reigns the finish ruined the match for me. I understand why they did it and agree with the logic, but that doesn't make me think it works in any way with the rest of the match. A lot of the AWA set was frustrating for me because all of the finishes had to be explained by the referee in big matches. Nothing was a cut and dried "win", but there would be some strange circumstance that required a DQ or no contest. A lot of the matches on that set would have benefitted from an actual finish, even if it were some kind of a roll-up. The more All Japan finish runs I see the more I think they should have had things like roll-up finishes now and again. Or the occasional Kobashi moonsault or Akiyama northern lights, Misawa's frog splash, some submission wins here and there, etc. put somebody away. It would have added more to the matches in the long run I think. Because if you know what a guy has been using for a finisher at the time it ends up being a bit predictable that somebody is going to kick out of the old finisher even after the 30 minute mark.

That's fair, but I do think it says something that even Taue or Akiyama (in my view) had better matches on average with Hansen than Misawa. I thought the Hansen matches put Misawa over really well and were in no way bad, but were missing something in the end, even the 8/92 and 5/93 bouts.

I liked this better than the McGraw/Madril match very much due to Checkmate's constant use of the turtle position in that match. It's far better as a surprise move to turn the tide than a constant tactic. I thought they did a good job of getting over both of the heels gimmicks throughout the match and giving the babyfaces enough time to shine. Madril still seems like he's not quite a babyface regardless of what everything about this match wants me to believe.

I think one reason for the match continuing was so that the 'birds could get out of the arena alive. I think you're dead on on a lot of things, but do not think this was as good a match as you do. Both Flair and Kerry getting frustrated with Hayes as the ref and that costing them valuable momentum multiple times seemed out of place to me in a NWA World Championship match though. That aspect of it just seemed wrong and out of place. I'm of the opinion that there ought to be more of a sense that momentum switches are earned through the actions of the wrestlers involved in matches like this. Here it seems like you have the X-factor of Hayes sticking his nose in, deservedly or no, and that takes a lot away from the match.