dawho5

I think this is a really good argument to have, and I come down on the side of Venegas and Steenalized. I question whether or not this particular thread is the place for it though. I get that it applies to somebody like Lawler, but it applies to a great many people nominated so I'm not sure it should be limited to only Lawler.

Those two hair vs. hair matches are great. So much atmosphere and emotion. Dump as the bully heel who feels the need to cheat despite being able to overpower her opponents is such a great foil. Chigusa is really over as the face and puts over the beatings she takes while getting her hope spots in. And bleeds like a champ. Crowd is absolutely incredible reacting to everything. One of the reasons I've always liked joshi is the HATE that gets put out there during matches. And I have to say this is some pretty top-notch hate going on between these two.

It's like somebody said in the Meng/Haku thread. When you're working with an extremely limited set of tools it becomes very important how and where you use them. I can see that applying to any aging wrestler as their body starts to go on them and they have to learn to use an increasingly smaller toolset to meet the demands that come from "prime" versions of themselves.

Sometimes I think Matt and Parv argue just for the sake of arguing. Whether or not that's true, I don't see how late career coasting can either tarnish the earlier greatness or be completely ignored. To me it's a matter of the sum total. Did the great stuff outweigh the subpar late career paydays? By how much did that late career slide hurt Flair's (or anyone else's) case in your eyes? Or on the opposite side, did the garbage come out ahead for a career with great matches peppered in? How much do those great performances elevate the career underachiever to the point where they make the lower part of a ballot? Those seem like the more pressing questions than the big extremes being presented.

I liked how Kawada came into the match looking to do a bunch of amateur style wrestling against Doc. Kind of a "I know you're good at this, but I can do it too" to get inside Doc's head. It at the very least made the match interesting and different from their CC Final match, even if that was the better of the two.

His AWA vs. NWA title match with Flair from All Japan in 1983 is really great. Need to see more of Martel after seeing that.

Fair enough on the Marufuji point. At the very least KENTA goes easy on the excessive flippy crap.

I think that one of the goals of this would have to be more folks who have seen a more varied set of wrestling matches from different areas of the world and can talk intelligently about them. Having fun watching a lot of wrestling would be another, going right along with the possibility of discovering a few wrestling styles you like more than you thought you would.. Making these kinds of lists also tends to make you look at what is important to you when you watch pro wrestling. I found that out during that last Ditch project. Not sure if I'll have the time to put into this, but I really want to.

So where is this argument going exactly? You're not going to pre-define anybody's criteria for voting, that's up to them. All that can be asked is that they are willing to watch the matches and decide based on that.

Just no. KENTA has one speed, one match and he has to be forced off of it by an extremely determined opponent. Some of his high profile stuff shows how severely bad KENTA was as far as not being willing to change to fit what was happening in a match. Not saying he isn't good at what he does, just that he lacked a lot of what makes a wrestler great.

Ultimo is a guy I loved in the 90s, but anything I've watched that he's done throughout his career in the last couple of years is good at best. And let's not talk about when he's not at his best.

Didn't he have a great match with Fujinami in 1986?

I tried to not hit the ones everyone already knew about. I figured those would be pretty heavily pimped already.

That's part of what made Hansen great. He made his style work with whoever he was in the ring with. For being so simple and direct, Hansen really adapted well to most opponents.

His run in the 2000s was incredible. Smart wrestler who knew his limitations and used them to his advantage as often as not. Once 95 came, his offense caught up with all the intangibles and he became a really incredible worker. He did well in tags and small matches, but Taue really shined in big matches. Here's some stuff worth watching from the 90s. Hansen vs. Taue 7/31/92 Kawada vs. Taue 4/13/93 Kawada/Taue vs. Williams/Gordy 5/20/93 Hansen vs. Taue 4/11/94 Holy Demon Army vs. Hansen/Baba 12/17/94 Misawa/Kobashi/Asako vs. Kawada/Taue/Honda 6/30/95 Kobashi vs. Taue 7/24/95 Taue vs. Kawada 3/31/96 Taue vs. Williams 4/20/96 Kawada vs. Taue 6/7/96 - some great interaction, match gets really dull in the middle Taue vs. Kobashi 7/24/96 Holy Demon Army vs. Williams/Ace 11/18/96 Akiyama vs. Taue 1/20/97 Akiyama vs. Taue 3/29/97 Kawada/Taue/Omori vs. Kobashi/Ace/Patriot 5/18/97 Holy Demon Army vs. Kobashi/Ace 5/27/97 Misawa/Kawada/Hase vs. Kobashi/Taue/Akiyama 9/15/97 Holy Demon Army vs. Kobashi/Ace 10/11/97 Taue vs. Ace 10/21/97 Holy Demon Army vs. Shinzaki/Hayabusa 11/23/97 Holy Demon Army vs. Kobashi/Ace 11/27/97 Kobashi/Ace vs. Holy Demon Army 1/25/98 Holy Demon Army vs. Kobashi/Ace 6/5/98 Holy Demon Army vs. Kakihara/Takayama 7/19/98 Taue/Izumida vs. Albright/Takayama 7/24/98 Kobashi/Ace vs. Taue/Honda 8/23/98 Holy Demon Army vs. Kobashi/Kea 8/29/98 Taue vs. Kobashi 9/11/98 Holy Demon Army vs. Burning 10/11/98 Holy Demon Army vs. Takayama/Kakihara 10/31/98 Holy Demon Army vs. Misawa/Shinzaki 1/15/99 Taue vs. Vader 3/6/99 Kawada/Kobashi vs. Misawa/Taue 6/4/99 - must see Misawa/Akiyama vs. Vader/Taue 1/17/00 Kawada/Taue/Fuchi vs. Misawa/Kobashi/Shiga 3/11/00 Holy Demon Army vs. Ace/Barton 6/9/00

Vader had some great stuff in All Japan: Hansen/Vader vs. Misawa/Ogawa 11/14/98 Taue vs. Vader 3/6/99 Kobashi vs. Vader 4/16/99 - must see Vader vs. Misawa 5/2/99 - must see Misawa vs. Vader 10/30/99 Misawa/Ogawa vs. Vader/Smith 10/99 - Ogawa gets the ride fo his life on a Vader German Kobashi/Akiyama/Shiga vs. Vader/Smith/Kea 11/27/99 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Vader/Taue 1/17/00 Akiyama vs. Vader 1/23/00 - Vader runs out of ideas during the finishing run and uses the finish for a nearfall Kobashi vs. Vader 2/27/00

He does have some good stuff from 90s AJPW also: Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Takayama/Kakihara 4/98 Kobashi/Ace/Hase vs. Albright/Takayama/Kakihara 7/18/98 Holy Demon Army vs. Takayama/Kakihara 10/31/98 Kawada vs. Takayama 7/17/99 Misawa vs. Takayama 9/4/99 Kobashi/Akiyama/Shiga vs. Takayama/Omori/Fuchi 10/9/99 Kobashi vs. Takayama 5/26/00

A list of the 90s matches I liked with Akiyama: Hansen vs. Akiyama 9/24/94 Kawada vs. Akiyama 3/21/95 Misawa vs. Akiyama 4/8/95 Kobashi/Hansen/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Ace/Omori 4/15/95 Misawa/Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Kikuchi/Ogawa 7/8/95 Williams/Ace vs. Misawa/Akiyama 6/7/96 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Ace 9/5/96 Williams/Ace vs. Misawa/Akiyama 11/16/96 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kobashi/Patriot 11/22/96 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Ace 11/30/96 actually, just watch anything he did in 1996 Akiyama vs. Taue 1/20/97 Akiyama vs. Taue 3/29/97 Kobashi vs. Akiyama 3/30/97 Akiyama vs. Misawa 5/27/97 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Albright 8/25/97 Misawa/Kawada/Hase vs. Kobashi/Taue/Akiyama 9/15/97 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Johnny Smith/Wolf Hawkfield 11/17/97 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kobashi/Ace 11/23/97 Misawa vs. Akiyama 1/26/98 Kobashi/Ace/Smith vs. Misawa/Akiyama/Kea 2/14/98 Kawada vs. Akiyama 3/26/98 Kobashi vs. Akiyama 3/98 Champions Carnival Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Takayama/Kakihara 4/98 Akiyama vs. Hase 5/1/98 Akiyama vs. Kea 7/18/98 - Akiyama working from above for once Kobashi/Kea vs. Akiyama/Hase 7/19/98 Akiyama vs. Kobashi 7/24/98 Misawa/Akiyama/Asako vs. Kobashi/Omori/Ogawa 8/23/98 Akiyama vs. Ogawa 9/11/98 Holy Demon Army vs. Burning 10/11/98 Burning vs. the Untouchables (Misawa/Ogawa) 3/6/99 Kobashi vs. Akiyama 3/99 CC Burning vs. Vader/Albright 7/23/99 Kobashi/Akiyama/Shiga vs. Ace/Barton/Kea 8/29/99 Kobashi/Akiyama/Shiga vs. Takayama/Omori/Fuchi 10/9/99 Burning vs. the Untouchables 10/23/99 Burning vs. No Fear 10/30/99 Burning vs. Untouchables 11/20/99 Kobashi/Akiyama/Shiga vs. Vader/Smith/Kea 11/27/99 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Vader/Taue 1/17/00 Akiyama vs. Vader 1/23/00 Akiyama vs. Shiga 3/11/00 - again, Akiyama working a guy way lower Kobashi/Shiga vs. Akiyama/Kea 6/9/00

Misawa matches I enjoyed (or did not) from the 90s: Misawa vs. Hansen 7/27/90 Misawa/Kawada vs. Gordy/Williams 7/24/91 Hansen vs. Misawa 8/22/92 Misawa/Kawada vs. Williams/Gordy 1/30/93 Misawa vs. Kawada 3/27/93 Misawa/Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue/Ogawa 7/2/93 Misawa vs. Kawada 4/11/94 Kobashi vs. Misawa 3/26/95 Misawa vs. Akiyama 4/8/95 Misawa/Kobashi/Asako vs. Kawada/Taue/Honda 6/30/95 Misawa/Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Kikuchi/Ogawa 7/8/95 - pissed off Misawa! Kobashi vs. Misawa 10/25/95 - this one gets me because it starts the really bad trends that Misawa and Kobashi continue on and off, it was necessary when it was done because of the difference in stature between the two though Misawa vs. Kobashi 3/31/96 Williams/Ace vs. Misawa/Akiyama 6/7/96 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Ace 9/5/96 Williams/Ace vs. Misawa/Akiyama 11/16/96 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kobashi/Patriot 11/22/96 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Ace 11/30/96 Misawa vs. Kawada 4/2/97 Akiyama vs. Misawa 5/27/97 Misawa vs. Kawada 6/6/97 - finish derails an otherwise great match Misawa/Akiyama vs. Williams/Albright 8/25/97 Misawa/Kawada/Hase vs. Kobashi/Taue/Akiyama 9/15/97 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Johnny Smith/Wolf Hawkfield 11/17/97 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kobashi/Ace 11/23/97 RWTL Misawa vs. Akiyama 1/26/98 Kobashi/Ace/Smith vs. Misawa/Akiyama/Kea 2/14/98 Misawa/Akiyama/Asako vs. Kobashi/Omori/Ogawa 8/23/98 Holy Demon Army vs. Misawa/Shinzaki 1/15/99 Burning vs. the Untouchables (Misawa/Ogawa) 3/6/99 Vader vs. Misawa 5/2/99 - must see Kawada/Kobashi vs. Misawa/Taue 6/4/99 - must see Misawa vs. Kobashi 6/11/99 - odd match that works until they just cycle through their bobms for nearfalls Misawa vs. Takayama 9/4/99 Burning vs. the Untouchables 10/23/99 Misawa vs. Vader 10/30/99 Misawa/Ogawa vs. Vader/Smith 11/99 Burning vs. Untouchables 11/20/99 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Vader/Taue 1/17/00 Kawada/Taue/Fuchi vs. Misawa/Kobashi/Shiga 3/11/00 Kobashi vs. Misawa 4/2000 Champion Carnival

Here's my list of 90s All Japan matches that I enjoyed featuring Stan Hansen: Misawa vs. Hansen 7/27/90 Misawa/Kawada vs. Hansen/Spivey 11/16/91 Hansen vs. Taue 7/31/92 Hansen vs. Misawa 8/22/92 Hansen vs. Kobashi 4/16/93 - handheld, must see Hansen vs. Kobashi 4/10/94 Hansen vs. Taue 4/11/94 Hansen vs. Williams 4/14/94 Hansen vs. Akiyama 9/24/94 Holy Demon Army vs. Hansen/Baba 12/17/94 Kobashi/Hansen/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Ace/Omori 4/15/95 Hansen/Taue vs. Burning 12/3/99 - Hansen and Taue as huge babyfaces, love it Hansen/Kea vs. Kawada/Tenryu 7/23/00 - Hansen again as a babyface

Here's my list, with negatives noted: Kawada vs. Kobashi 7/1/89 TM2 vs. Kobasi 3/6/90 Kawada vs. Kobashi 6/30/90 Misawa vs. Kobashi 4/5/91 - handheld Kawada vs. Kobashi 3/20/92 Kobashi vs. Misawa 4/12/93 Hansen vs. Kobashi 4/16/93 - handheld, must see Kawada vs. Kobashi 10/23/93 Hansen vs. Kobashi 4/10/94 Kobashi vs. Kawada 1/19/95 - first 40 minutes is incredible Kobashi vs. Misawa 3/26/95 Kawada vs. Kobashi 4/13/95 Kobashi/Hansen/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Ace/Omori 4/15/95 Kobashi vs. Ace 5/26/95 Misawa/Kobashi/Asako vs. Kawada/Taue/Honda 6/30/95 Misawa/Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Kikuchi/Ogawa 7/8/95 Kobashi vs. Taue 7/24/95 Kobashi vs. Misawa 10/25/95 - Kobashi takes a lot of bad things from this and keeps doing them Misawa vs. Kobashi 3/31/96 Kawada vs. Kobashi 5/24/96 - Kobashi repeating a nearfall so he gets a pop REALLY annoys me Taue vs. Kobashi 7/24/96 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kobashi/Patriot 11/22/96 Kobashi vs. Akiyama 3/30/97 Holy Demon Army vs. Kobashi/Ace 5/27/97 - Kobashi overdoing fighting spirit, he gets worse though Kobashi vs. Hase 8/25/97 Misawa/Kawada/Hase vs. Kobashi/Taue/Akiyama 9/15/97 Holy Demon Army vs. Kobashi/Ace 10/11/97 Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kobashi/Ace 11/23/97 Holy Demon Army vs. Kobashi/Ace 11/27/97 Kobashi/Ace vs. Holy Demon Army 1/25/98 Kobashi/Ace/Smith vs. Misawa/Akiyama/Kea 2/14/98 Kobashi vs. Akiyama 3/98 Champion Carnival - does Kobashi really need to drop Akiyama on his head more than once in 98? Kobashi/Akiyama vs. Takayama/Kakihara 4/98? Holy Demon Army vs. Kobashi/Ace 6/5/98 Kobashi vs. Kakihara 7/15/98 Kobashi/Ace/Hase vs. Albright/Takayama/Kakihara 7/18/98 Kobashi/Kea vs. Akiyama/Hase 7/19/98 Akiyama vs. Kobashi 7/24/98 - more head drops for Akiyama this time around Kobashi/Ace vs. Taue/Honda 8/23/98 Holy Demon Army vs. Kobashi/Kea 8/29/98 Taue vs. Kobashi 9/11/98 Holy Demon Army vs. Burning 10/11/98 Burning vs. the Untouchables (Misawa/Ogawa) 3/6/99 Kobashi vs. Akiyama 3/99 CC - anyone else seeing the pattern with head drops and Akiyama? Kobashi vs. Vader 4/16/99 - must see Kawada/Kobashi vs. Misawa/Taue 6/4/99 - must see Misawa vs. Kobashi 6/11/99 - odd match that works until they just cycle through their bobms for nearfalls Burning vs. Ace/Bart Gunn 6/9/99 - Kobashi feels the need to kill Gunn with a half nelson, so very necessary No Fear vs. Kobashi/Shiga 7/4/99 Kobashi vs. Kakihara 7/16/99 Burning vs. Vader/Albright 7/23/99 Kobashi/Akiyama/Shiga vs. Ace/Barton/Mossman(Kea) 8/29/99 Kobashi/Akiyama/Shiga vs. Takayama/Omori/Fuchi 10/9/99 Burning vs. the Untouchables 10/23/99 Burning vs. No Fear 10/30/99 Burning vs. Untouchables 11/20/99 Kobashi/Akiyama/Shiga vs. Vader/Smith/Kea 11/27/99 Kawada vs. Kobashi 1/17/00 - Kobashi's selling is really weak and the match floats around between who is higher up on the card, odd match, also Kawada's return from injury Kobashi vs. Vader 2/27/00 Kawada/Taue/Fuchi vs. Misawa/Kobashi/Shiga 3/11/00 Kobashi vs. Smith 4/10/00 Kobashi vs. Misawa 4/2000 Kobashi vs. Takayama 5/26/00 Kobashi/Shiga vs. Akiyama/Kea 6/9/00 - again with the half nelsons, he killed that move so badly

Anything featuring Tenryu from the 2000s is a great one-time watch. He brings something only he can to all of the matches I watched him in during that project. He was one of the top 5 workers in Japan in the 2000s in his 50s. If that's not worth a vote somewhere in the top 100 I'm not sure what is.

I put together a list by wrestler of matches from my AJPW 90s watchings. I tried to stay away from the heavily pimped early 90s stuff and hit more the less talked-about matches and a lot of the stuff from late 90s that was actually pretty good. I have the list by wrestler with one after the other (and doubled up match listings). Would it be best to put this in the individual thread for each wrestler or have a separate thread for this kind of deal?

I'd have to watch a lot of his later WWE stuff, because his WCW and Japan juniors stuff does not age well for me. As a character he was great, but his in-ring work was not at the right level for me.

Hansen and Kawada vying for number 1 here, with Flair and Misawa close behind. I need to catch up on lots of territories/80s and 90s WWE/WCW stuff and lucha though. Santo could easily be up there from what I've seen.