dawho5
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Everything posted by dawho5
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I tend to take the RF viewpoint when I watch wrestling. I could care less if it made money, do I enjoy it? And were I to make a GOAT list, Toshiaki Kawada would be number 1 without any question at all. But I can completely understand somebody putting drawing power as a very important aspect of being GOAT. I can also see it if you were to look at a wrestler's career and try to judge how successful they were. If they were put in a position to draw a lot of money and didn't, I perfectly understand holding that against their wrestling career. It's the reason the promoter put them out there. So yes, in some cases, it is an important metric. However, as Matt D and Dylan Waco have suggested, there are a lot of factors underlying the amount of money wrestlers drew as well as different circumstances involved in each scenario. If you're going to include that as part of your criteria, it's got to be something you look into and try to understand better. Because like all metrics, drawing power can very easily be misused by not truly understanding what the numbers mean in their own context. Or even worse, purposefully misused to support a conclusion that you wanted to reach in the first place. -
I think you guys are sleeping on Ogawa vs. Takayama from 02. Ogawa plays a damn good scrappy underdog. And the best part is he doesn't do any flippy style junior stuff and still manages some big nearfalls on Takayama. Otherwise I am in agreement on most of it. Not a Saito fan thus far. Maybe he will change my mind.
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No, no. WE'RE the Judean People's Front. It's the People's Judean Front. Splitters.
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I think one thing missing from this discussion is the separation of what you or I, the fan, enjoys in the ring or on the mic from the reason this question seems to have been asked. If I'm looking at this, this isn't a question of somebody watching (we'll stick with this example) a Sting match or a few of them and then saying to themselves, "I really liked those matches, but he wasn't ever a big draw so I'm not so big on them now." This is more from a career restrospective or comparison of wrestlers way of looking at things. More like, did Hogan or Sting have a better career? And, like most here, I would want to say Sting because I personally enjoyed watching Sting a lot more than I ever enjoyed watching Hogan. But if I looked at it objectively, I'd have to go with Hogan because he made whatever company he was working for at the time far and away more money than Sting ever did. And that is the entire reason the business exists. Sure other factors come into that sort of discussion, but drawing is a pretty huge part of it given the importance of how much money a wrestler brings in to A. the wrestler and B. the company. Talking about the matches and wrestlers I personally like, however, I could more or less give a shit about how much they drew. I just know I enjoy them for what they were. But I don't think that is what is being discussed here.
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Since when did people start defending Scott Keith here?
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From reading through this it seems like a lot of it is very sentimental in terms of how people are viewing this. not a criticism, just seems like that reading it. Might be that it's difficult to address this topic without that coming up.
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Pretty good match. For whatever reason, Kanemoto plays the (not really a face, but) face-in-peril for the only heat segment of the match. And it works to a degree. When Liger comes in and starts beating on Kikuchi to the point where you know a tag can be made the boos are LOUD. Otherwise, very chaotic, hate-filled brawl. The finish builds on top of the tag match in NJPW from August 2002. Might make somewhere between 50 and 75. Might not. There's better Liger vs. Kikuchi matches in 02.
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As far as spotty lower-tier juniors go, I'll take Naruse any day over Kanemaru. He works this great grounded headlock on Kikuchi early that I really, really loved. And he has nice, smooth, almost Minoru-like ability to chain into different holds from things. His strikes need work, but he's entertaining. Kanemaru used a top rope diving DDT as a transition to offense. Kikuchi vs. Damurai is pretty damn good, very gritty and more in an older style of puroresu that I really dig. It's not as good or as heated as Liger vs. Kikuchi, but I doubt much NJPW has to offer will be. This will probably be just short of the cut due to the crap finish, but it was a lot of fun up until then, for the most part.
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Hayashi is the strawberry blonde incarnation of the bland masked wrestler from KDX, Hiryuu. And he's just as bland with the bleached rudo hair and middle fingers. Hirai is an old school All Japan type guy with nice suplexes and power moves that lack snap. Given time and the right environment (which I doubt he gets, given who gets over in 2000s Japan) he could be something. Tenryu's interactions with both members of the other team are incredible. Kojima is still a step behind the old man. And Hayashi...well, Tenryu really wants to hurt Hayashi. He tosses a chair right at his face on the outside at one point. Then while Tenryu is pinning Kojima late, Hayashi stomps on his head. Tenryu gets up and gives him this look as if to ask, "Haven't you learned yet?", then proceeds to destroy him yet again. Hayashi gets a revenge dive just as Kojima pins Hirai. This was all sorts of fun for the Tenryu vs. young blond-haired fancy guys aspect. It'll be somewhere in my bottom 50, probably in the 50-60 range.
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Great, great build up until about midway through the finishing run. Misawa really puts Takayama over as a huge threat and Takayama sells when he needs to. Not sure if Misawa, Takayama or both started blowing a lot of the spots, but there were at least 4 over the last 8 to 10 minutes. Still loved the first 3/4 of the match and it'll probably make my ballot somewhere in the lower 50.
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I'm probably gonna be in the minority here, but I loved this match. Ogawa gets a brief (very) shine before Takayama tosses him off on a cover. And starts beating him mercilessly. Ogawa turns things around and finds a weakness, and exploits it to the very very very fullest. Takayama gets the crowd believing Ogawa can put him away after a few near-falls, hits a HUGE knee followed by a big German that Ogawa kicks out of, then pulls down the knee pad. Ogawa rolls him up a few times, then eats a massive knee to the face. Kickout again! Takayama is done with this and hits the German for the win. If you can show me another match where a junior gets that much heat for a series of believable nearfalls on a heavyweight (Takayama!!!) all without ANY dive/top rope moves at all, I'd be very surprised. Crowd was tepid for early Ogawa comeback, but by the end they were nuclear hot. This probably makes my top 30. Reminds me a lot of Akiyama vs. Ogawa 9/11/98.
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This was all kinds of fun. Minoru and Liger turning the tables on Kanemaru with the ball shots was great. Kanemaru getting revenge using Liger's head via drop toe hold was better. The mask ripping and HATE in this match were off the charts. I still think the New Japan rematch in August is better so this won't be getting a vote. But damn is it one great match.
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Man, this match was all sorts of incredible. Minoru in peril from the outset rocks. Kanemaru's offense when he's a dick is great. When he gets all flippy floppy it's not. Kikuchi brings the never say die attitude to everything, including holding on to a submission while Liger bodyslams Kanemaru right on top of him! Liger puts on the best camel clutch I've ever seen and Minoru decides a boot to the face is needed to make it better. Minoru aping Kanemaru's mule kick to the groin spot then getting it right back is soooooo fucking great. the Liger vs. Kikuchi finishing run is great in front of a super hot crowd. This will probably be top 10 or 20 for me. Only thing to knock it out of that range is Kanemaru's incessant going to the top.
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This could have happened in late 90s ECW easily. I'm confused as to MPro rules, was the ref supposed to ignore the chair being brought into the ring? Togo early on heels it up great. TM4 can't take a pedigree to save his life, so why they did 4 I'm not sure. And how the pedigree sets up the senton is yet another mystery. Some matches I've liked TM4's offense, but it doesn't work well here. Even with him completely noselling the leg. Probably won't make my ballot.
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Kanemoto starts out by beating the shit out of Hashi. For a while. Hashi's hope spots are gritty and violent, matching Koji's tone. So is his eventual comeback. The crowd starts to believe that Hashi can pull this off as he gets some good nearfalls. Koji's cutoff attempts get more frequent and he gets his big nearfalls. Hashi gets his last gasp, but Koji's not gonna lose the IWGP Jr. belt to this NOAH punk. Hashi FIGHTS his way out of two ankle locks, but eats Koji's kneelkick thingy for the flash KO and a 3. Finish may seem kinda weak, but Hashi wasn't going to give up and was scrappy about fighting off the tiger suplex. Makes sense that Koji would just go for blunt force trauma to put him away. Hashi comes across as a tough motherfucker with a never-say-die attitude. Also, his offense is spottier than you may think. It doesn't detract too much from the match and this is one of the better singles matches between juniors I have seen in the 2000s. Should make my bottom 50 pretty easily.
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I like Nishimura's wrestling style a lot. And you know, a part of me wants to say that Takayama is "trying to beat Nishimura at his own game" as part of the story of the match. But the realist in me says that the match was booked the way it was so that Nishimura didn't get crushed in 7 minutes. It may end up on the bottom 1/4 of the ballot for me because Takayama is actually pretty good at the slow old school matwork. But the match is lacking in terms of any kind of drama for the majority.
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This is my Sasaki match of choice so far. Just two big dudes duking it out and actually selling where it makes sense. I really, really, really love how Takayama makes his knee lift, dropkick, double arm suplex and legdrop into big moments in the match. Those are not things you would expect to find as "big spots" in 2002 but they rock. The Vader hammers by both at the end were fun, especially Kensuke swinging away after Takayama has been knocked down. Great way of giving the idea you're just swinging away on instinct after taking a beating. Only thing I didn't care for was the lariat thingy, but I'm getting used to mentally editing that out.
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Early on both are trying to get something going and it looks like Nagata might get the advantage with his grappling. Until Takayama goes to his bread & butter striking. Nagata takes an ass-kicking before he ends up getting back in it with grappling technique. Then he hits some big suplexes after working the leg over. Takayama hits his own big suplex and we go to strike exchanges. Once they start throwing punches they lose me as Nagata cannot throw a worked punch. The double high kick to end it by Nagata was weak. Say what you will about Nagata's grappling, it's better than his striking. And him kicking out of a German early at 1 was kinda iffy. May make bottom half of the ballot for the Takayama beatdown.
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All Japan needs to stop having their guys at ringside throw bundles of streamers. You can tell it's not fans throwing them.
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While it's true they can become great performers because they are great athletes, that's not always the case. It's very easy to use that sort of thing as a crutch early on, get over based on that and really have no way of actually learning everything you missed because you could just rely on your natural talent. Whereas someone who has to work at everything is required to pay attention to the small details that the better natural athlete can just gloss over if they so choose.
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Looked to me like this match had a very specific purpose in mind. Make it look like Kea could hang with Tenryu for short periods of time. So Tenryu/Araya would beat the shit out of Miyamoto with the youngster getting his hopespots in, then Kea would come in, look great for a few minutes and leave Miyamoto to his beating. Everything works fine, except I don't think they planned for Miyamoto being as game as he was and really making it the Miyamoto show. Won't make my ballot, but a fun watch nonetheless.
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This was not a great wrestling match. Hell, in terms of wrestling matches it wasn't even that good. BUT it was all kinds of fun watching Hashimoto beat the shit out of Masato Tanaka. The pre-match stuff with Tanaka pissing off Hash was pretty helpful. because this match looks like Tanaka pissed off Hash and is getting the shit kicked out of him for it, plain and simple. He sells the beating really, really well too.