shodate

im not trolling

i im 100% not trolling[ im just 100% sincere in what i believe] use have my personally measuring sticks for everything and if you look up my top 100 list Volk in the top rated modern worker so when we frame a topic about abilty i will use him as my stick his my number 4 just to say yes and i like to respond to everything not becuase i like ot get in the; the last word but so i know that I have everything covered in any topic that talks about i began judung on realsim when i was around 12 asther i want ot my first ever MMA event andsaid ot my self wrestling in this county will loose unless it Fouces more on realism was over years ago look wrestling here is now more poplra than MMA again unlike in the us were its lost the war thanks you the embrace for Russoian ideals that were did well for a time but going back most of the AE has not aged well at all. Good art ages well bad art does not wrestling[ in the us does not have its Sgt peppers or the wall ] stuf that is truly agless] Like most of the 1983-1995 stuff in Japan is alot of the best shoot style has aged very well and everyy one tries ot do Kings Road now yes even WWE when people say there doing Indie style its KIngs Road us indie style take more from Kings Road and Lucharesu promotion tna it does from new Japan of the years mentioned above

Meaning there both tag teams Fuji tv had aroud the same level of market shre pre crush gals as USA has now had around 8.5% of the share as a whole pre crush era and zenjo was not evem iys most viewd show unlike RAW with USA

OK, so to properly grasp someones in ring ability we must compare them to Volk Han? And cool on the Usos and Crush Gals comparisons as El-P noted. I'm done with this thread. hes my personal mesurting stickj nt yours my own personaly one

First Sambo was not dominate in the first 15 years of MMA(meaning 1993-2008), it had only a handful of practitioners that made it to the top of the elite promotions. Fedor Emelianenko,Andrei Arelovski, and Oleg Taktarov being the 3 biggest with guys like Sergei Kharitonov,Mikhail Ilyukhin,Andrei Semenov,Amar Suloev,Aleksander Emelianenko being highly ranked. That's less than 10 fighters who are definitively Sambo fighters and not guys from other arts who also did some Sambo. Nowhere near being dominate as there are more UFC champions alone not accounting for PRIDE or other big name promotions from 1993-2008 that practiced other disciplines that had more successful representatives than Sambo. Second Fedor didn't lose to TK in PRIDE but in RINGS(which you seem to talk about a lot so I don't know how you didn't realize this). It was due to a cut from an illegal elbow by TK as in RINGS elbows were only allowed if you wore elbow pads and as this was a Tournament(The King of Kings Tournament) someone had to advance and winner had to be declared so TK was given the TKO victory. Also as mentioned Danielson didn't train with Randy Couture, only at his Vegas gym and with Couture's grappling coach and Bryan's roomate Neil Melanson, a great grappler and catch wrestling instructor. honest mistake and i still call that bs loss for Fedor no matter the reasoning of it as much as love RINGS for MMA i was always Pancrase or PRIDE or Shooto guy that i why i tought it was Pride UFC for most of the first 10 years was not even TOP level promotion also they still have not manged to beat Pride's best adtencede record and youmay say pride never did UFC's PPV numbers PPV was never huge Thing in Japan its on in japanese mentality of consumption for it to be big Japan biggest numbers of PPV ever was around a 0.35

This would be the discussion if someone stopped comparing every single worker in every thread to Volk Han... IIRC even the Usos in one of the WWE threads were compared to Volk Han... i never made the comparesion i just use him as my measuring stick when talking about in ring abilty in that Tag team Top topic i said my eaxct word were are they a tv ratings draw on the level of the Crush Gals were in Japan in the us and i said i know Japanese and us tv rtaings systems are different but i use the Japanese system since is simpler Crush were at the avering 25.00 at there Highest ponit 1/4 people were tuning in to Fuji TV each Week that is of the total population of Japan ahve the uso draw 25.00 ratings

I loved the Williams match and love the end match even more i would have loved dragon to work iGF or Real Japan too LAZ i nice to tallk with some one with such a polar opposite view to me cuase i hate more show than Go workers

New Japan these days is Juat KIngs Road as well that match with Tommy end in WXW iin the shootstyle thing they abmtion i think its called what saying i think Dragon could hang with Han or hell Hedeki Suzuki or Sakaragi Yuki[ Tiger's mask] in mat based classisc and make it look good and feel real ois fact im my book since i seen him work that mat based style somthing AJ has alway lacked based on all of seen of him these days strong style is just a marking term NJPW has but been that way for 10 or more year

im the most down to earth salt of the earth guy going i love good debate about things i have passion for be it pro wresting Or the miunuteia of hard left Politics but around these parts lest keep it to wrestling from me

this whole long exchange come from my original Comment of i think Dragon could Have worked will with a Prime Volk or prime Tamura ad fit in well while i di no think Aj Could have that show versatility in my view of it since he could work the Kings road influenced Us indie style and RINGS style of worked shoot style something im 100% aj could not work

None of the old-school style stuff was "realistic". I just watched that video of that French wrestler in the 60's explaining how things work, despite the whole "kayfabe" stuff, pro-wrestling has always been seen for what it was, a carny trick. It never prevented the emotional involvment because real emotions don't need "realism" as a vehicule to be produced on and by a crowd. And yeah, AJ Styles is a great, great fucking pro-wrestler. As far as realism goes in pro-wrestling, I feel like it's an aesthetic above all. To me its almost synonymous with something being 'gritty' in that it favours a down to earth presentation, emphasises physicality, good working punches etc. So I don't see the problem with using it in that context s long as no one is under any illusions about the actual realism of pro-wrestling lol. I agree with the bolded parts. Then again, All Japan in the 90's was super gritty, but although I would use the term, or "stiff", you can always poke holes all over it in term of what I think shodate refers to as "realism" (but maybe I'm wrong, after all, he mentionned Yasha Kurenai in his HOF. YASHA FUCKING KURENAI !!!), which I understand as something looking the most "real" as in how a "real professionnal wrestling" match would look. Hey, I'm an old-school shoot-style fan, Tamura, Han & Khousaka were my heroes at one point, so I'm all for that aesthetic. But to disparage workers because they don't work that particular way (or toward that kind of execution of holds and strikes) seems kinda odd to me. Hell, if we're talking about the stiff and gritty, more "realistic" style of All Japan, no one was as awkward and unrealistic as Akira Taue. Maybe shodate doesn't like Taue though... Oh, yeah, Daniel Bryan. Well he's great too. I don't think it makes much sense to disparage AJ Styles of all people on these grounds. Different strokes for different folks in terms of working styles I guess. People value different things in their pro-wrestling. I'm really not a fan of those super choreographed looking Ospreay vs Ricochet matches for example and people often cite those as being bad because of a lack of 'realism' but to me it's something more to do with preferring matches that look less rehearsed and harking back to workers that called it in the ring? Maybe I'm misreading that but that's certainly part of why I don't like them so much. ypue have almost read me right there

None of the old-school style stuff was "realistic". I just watched that video of that French wrestler in the 60's explaining how things work, despite the whole "kayfabe" stuff, pro-wrestling has always been seen for what it was, a carny trick. It never prevented the emotional involvment because real emotions don't need "realism" as a vehicule to be produced on and by a crowd. And yeah, AJ Styles is a great, great fucking pro-wrestler. As far as realism goes in pro-wrestling, I feel like it's an aesthetic above all. To me its almost synonymous with something being 'gritty' in that it favours a down to earth presentation, emphasises physicality, good working punches etc. So I don't see the problem with using it in that context s long as no one is under any illusions about the actual realism of pro-wrestling lol. I agree with the bolded parts. Then again, All Japan in the 90's was super gritty, but although I would use the term, or "stiff", you can always poke holes all over it in term of what I think shodate refers to as "realism" (but maybe I'm wrong, after all, he mentionned Yasha Kurenai in his HOF. YASHA FUCKING KURENAI !!!), which I understand as something looking the most "real" as in how a "real professionnal wrestling" match would look. Hey, I'm an old-school shoot-style fan, Tamura, Han & Khousaka were my heroes at one point, so I'm all for that aesthetic. But to disparage workers because they don't work that particular way (or toward that kind of execution of holds and strikes) seems kinda odd to me. Hell, if we're talking about the stiff and gritty, more "realistic" style of All Japan, no one was as awkward and unrealistic as Akira Taue. Maybe shodate doesn't like Taue though... Oh, yeah, Daniel Bryan. Well he's great too. i view taue as like a nightclub doorman type ie he never had to be the most elegant type he fit that role well personlly if he did begin later than the other three as he did i count akiyama as being on the same level as Kawada Kobashi and Misawa

None of the old-school style stuff was "realistic". I just watched that video of that French wrestler in the 60's explaining how things work, despite the whole "kayfabe" stuff, pro-wrestling has always been seen for what it was, a carny trick. It never prevented the emotional involvment because real emotions don't need "realism" as a vehicule to be produced on and by a crowd. And yeah, AJ Styles is a great, great fucking pro-wrestler. As far as realism goes in pro-wrestling, I feel like it's an aesthetic above all. To me its almost synonymous with something being 'gritty' in that it favours a down to earth presentation, emphasises physicality, good working punches etc. Everyone knows it's pro-wrestling and it's not on the up and up but it's about producing matches/angles that seek to capture the look/feel of a real fight or struggle within the confines of professional wrestling as opposed to the more striking fantasy elements (OTT gimmicks and the like) or the acrobatic stunt shows (think of any Will Ospreay match). I think everyone is basically aware of that being what we mean when we use the term 'realism' to describe wrestling. So I don't see the problem with using it in that context s long as no one is under any illusions about the actual realism of pro-wrestling lol. Fantasy is no reason for Ipsulabilty and you can quote me on this and on topic I think dragon is very good for the reason of his realism also any one who says just turn your brain off to anything is not my sort of person i just cannot turn ooff and become a vegetable when viewing anything yes even wrestling is someone style lacks internal logic i call then a bad worker

to each there own

there is this fact as well

Have you ever seen a non-worked grappling match? Watch something from ADCC, for example, and compare that to the realistic looking mat work you keep brining up from Han's matches and you'll see the huge difference. All the banana splits and contrived holds Han pulls of are almost impossible/very rare in grappling. And no, that's not a knock on Han, because I recognize his skill level, but it's just the reality of it. And as I have expressed before in other threads, a lot of questionable transitions are done in shoot style (guys transitioning from full mounts into his opponents guard? guys transitioning from side guard to half guard? poorly executed kimura's and americana's are a dime a dozen, etc.), however if you take that into account you will see it's not as realistic looking as you make it out to be and thus it drowns down the enjoyment of the style. I enjoy shoot style for what it is and try and ignore the glaring flaws in the grappling exchanges. I mean, do you really think Han could pull off a banana split in a real grappling exchange against another quality grappler? Obviously not. And again, that's not a knock on his ability, but it's just the reality of it. Heck, you don't even see high level skill grapplers pulling off banana splits against low level inexperienced grapplers and much less would you see a high level skill grappler pull it off as easily against another high quality grappler. Yes went to some SAW stuff bakc in the day and yes that was not worked and yes iv seen mma Fights End with a Split so it possible sambo was Dominate for the almost 15 year that mma wasa Thing or at in Japan were Grappling was more Common than in early UFCs hence why people with solid grappling base back in the style style days dominated for the most part all of MMA hell Hans own trainee in Fedor is call by many as the best Fighter of all time and another RINGs RUSSA Guy and volk han Trainee in Ilkuine gave Igor Vochancchn his first ever Legit Loss [ the other one at that time being a loss that when Igor put his chin in someone's eye in bs DQ ] and i know i spelt Igor;'s 2nd name worng i never been able to spell it i put dq igor loss ant the same level of oddness as the Loss Fedor had to TK you know the one the the cut over eye that was opened up by an accidetal elbow by TK back then elbow were banned in Pride i Think hence why i said an accidental elbow all that aside most wrestling commentators in the west would no know a split if thye saw one anyway especially in wwe because legitimate high-end mat work is dead cause wwe teach people how to work and not how to wrestlie with good technique and very few people that train ahe any technical skill ie stuff liek SAW Sambo Judo JuJutsu or any thing like that in that background that is another mind set i have tthe technique vs technical skill split Dragon ahs some of both based on the fact the did train t=with Coture he must have Aj has none of these coimg from WCW training Hurt him in that way also Dragon trained the coture did it not ?

Backhanded compliment of the century thank for the kind word never the less what do you mean by borderline insane

look at my top Han was never stiff per say i mean the realism of his mat work and grappling realism helps me buy into the work more simply put Epscplly realistic looking Matwork realistic looking striking is harder to pull off minus Chops Dragon has more realistic looking and Tighter looking Matwork AJ was never top notch looking on the mat or are you going ot say it his at top 10-15 Pure matwork Guy you r free to hold that view not that i agree with that and no way is Top 20 High Flyer or a top 30 even Bralwer

if its based on in-ring realism is important and everyone has there biases I also rate on technique hence in my post before i stated that Bryan could look good in the ring in RINGS style match with Prime Tamura or Volk Han while I wager Highly Aj would not

i full and deep-chested disagree for reason iv have stated previously Witch, in fact, no one has tried to debate me on

This is almost word for word where I'm at with Bryan, though I'd probably go Danielson/Nigel from 6th Anniversary as his best match. What would be your answer to the question of the poll? Most likely 'Yes.' I mean, I don't think Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada had a match three years into their career as good as Danielson/Ki's tapout match in JAPW, or a performance as good as Danielson's in that match (though one of the Kobashi/Hansen matches might've been close). There's obviously more to this than being good young, but yeah, I guess in terms of talent I'd say he's there with those three. you cannot judge that since how Japanese promotions work when workers are still young lions there not really given the time

i am indeed both of them things Where in Japan do you live? Nemuro for the last 6 months ever since i left my family home moved around every 6 months to 1 year my fave place to on Ryukyu i use to live there during the winter but im Original From Ianba but my family is A Northen family im 1/8 ainu as well il be moving again soon im not a settling down type back to Ryukyu for me next or maybe down to kyushu

Aj is not better than Am dragon at all for this main reason the style he used through most of his active time is not in my eyes conducive od be being called a top 20 all-time worker, or top-level. The overly high flying style vs the mainly gound based game of Dragon the indie spotfest style. let alone aj's not being on the same level of realism in strikes as Dragon does. Dragon' s ROH Title run was the best to watch in comparison to any of Aj's Runs ever id put all of Dragon's matches with Nigel above any match aj ever had a finer way for me to put this is I wager Dragon on the mat could Realistically have a classic with prime Volk Han in the RINGS style and fitting in with the Grade of the Tamura matches while I could never see aj doing that I call the 1990's the golden age the only place I could see aj fitting back then would be AAA maybe as a member of Los Gringos Locos. while I could see Dragon fitting in anywhere from RINGS to M pro or anywhere in between even say FMW

day 8 Steamboat vs Dong [Winner Dong[10] 20,00 Han vs Njiman [winner Han[15] 11;00] Flair vs Terry [ Winner Terry[11] 1 Satanico vs Shota [ Winner Shota[13] 10;09 Zangif vs Gonzales {Winner Zangif[28;09] Williams vs Regal Winner[ Regal [8] 15;08] Petkov vs Konan[ Winner Petkov[4] 17;09] Bret vs Tamura[Tamura[15] 45;09] Han vs Gray[ winner Han[15] 19;09 ] Owen vs Gray [Winner Gray[6] 10;08]

Thank you boss Loss