goodhelmet

That's a great way of summing up Styles.

Child's has seen more 1980S JAPAN than anyone out there.

Not ignoring flyonthewall but how a 22 year old can change his opinions so much on wrestling is amazing and insane.

He will definitely be on my list. He had a ton of great matches on the Texas set. He had the best matches of Terry Taylor's career on the UWF Footage and then he had the Austin series. No chance of falling off.

I have no fucking idea why it came out that way. I just typed Koloff and my phone corrects it as Koloa. That is some fucked up shit.

This just shows the difference in age... the day Honky Tonk Man pinned Ricky Steamboat.

I love Ivan Koloa too Parv

I am really glad we are doing this project. From a combination of work, influence, drawing and character work... a Murdoch looks more and more like a no brainer to me. Having said that, with the research being done, I think we can make a solid Gordy list to help make the case.

Dave even admitted that his time in Japan hurt his runs in other territories. What is crazy is that if he is one of the top gaigin of all time, why isn't he in the Japanese category? Like we said on the show and this thread, it speaks more about the problem with categories than it does the wrestlers.

I do like the Islanders but fuck that... we have so much NOT in common that it would make for great airwaves. Lets fight!!!!

He'll never be as great as this guy...

Here are excerpts from the Meltzer obituary that make some arguments FOR Murdoch. I can focus on the negatives later but I am cutting and pasting the highlights here.... Quick sidetrack... when we talk about what it means to be an athlete, this line really stuck out to me. What the argument is really about when discussing being "athletic" is physique. Just to remind everyone There is more great stuff in the article that I may highlight but some of it will come with the criticism excerpts I plan on posting.

You should have kept the lasers. I thought they looked cool.

I was reading JJ Dillon's book and the chapter on West Texas. He doesn't give any real insight into what the gates were like but there are tons of stories about working in the territory for over a year. There are also some great Murdoch stories in there as well.

I hope there will be more Tom Prichard talk coming to P2B also

I don't mind comparisons but when the person you are discussing it refuses to acknowledge counterpoints then it becomes a broken record circle jerk that accomplishes nothing. Parv has said his peace several times over and over. We failed at convincing him. People have different criteria. It's time to move on. I prefer you and shoe asking questions that challenge Kris to dig deep and me to look for trends in the results.

I am also in agreement that Ivan is a Hall of Famer but take your Ivan agenda to a new thread and present the case there. I know you don't respect guys who don't work New York or Atlanta or only headline in podunk Texas, Mid Atlantic, Florida, Louisiana, Oklahoma, St. Louis, Ohio and Japan. We can also ignore the reality that Murdoch was working at a high level up through 1989. Kris and I are working on something big here and you are distracting us.

Fuxk... you're right. I stayed in Council Bluffs 2 summers ago. My family is from Burlington so I should have known that.

No Kris, why he is doing is ignoring all the things we have pointed out that strengthen Dicks case and harping on Amarillo.

Right, you also ignored his runs in Mid South and Japan. Lets take Dibiase's Mid South run out of the equation. I am sure you would feel the Million Dollar Man was Hall of Famey.

It's only the tip of the iceberg. I am just setting a template on which Kris, Bix et al can build on so we can write that Manifesto. I am ignoring guys like Jerry Von Kramer who are pushing for other guys right now at the expense of Dick and focusing solely on Dick. Once we run Dick through the mill we will have a better understanding of where Dick stacks up. I am also working on a rough sketch of the Gordy list that I hope Kris and Bix can help me fill in. I may even enlist people who knew Murdoch to help me fill it in.

THIS IS JUST FROM KRIS’s DATA. IT FEELS INCOMPLETE BUT I TRIED TO GET AN IDEA OF WHAT MURDOCH MEANT FOR EACH TERRITORY HE WAS IN ON A YEAR BY YEAR BASIS. FEEL FREE TO ADD DETAILS WHERE I MAY HAVE BEEN VAGUE OR WRONG BUT I AM GOING TO TRY AND DO SUMMARIES FOR THE 80s LATER. 1968 JAPAN - Underneath talent and occasional tags against Baba WEST TEXAS - Team with Billy Garrett. Worked on top in tag team and against top talent. Up against Funk Sr. (the owner), Bockwinkel, Funk Brothers, Ricky Romero, HOLY GRAILS Dick Murdoch vs. Kantaro Hoshino - HOLY SHIT!!!! Holy Grail!!!! 6/17/68 El Paso, TX @ Coliseum El Santo & Gory Guerrero beat Dick Murdoch & Billy Garrett 2-0 1969 CEDAR RAPIDS: Working on or near top of the card. - Ronnie Etchinson, Eduard Carpentier, Dory Funk Jr MID TEXAS - Underneath tag team with Dusty Rhodes AUSTRALIA: - Team with Lars Anderson. Worked main and co-main throughout run. Opponents include Spiros Arion, Mario Milano, Jack Brisco QUESTIONS: What was the deal with Cedar Rapids? Was this a way of running Omaha without dealing with a gaming commission? For those that don’t know, Cedar Rapids is right across the river from Omaha and is really one market. Also ,any info on Ronnie Etchinson? 1970 OHIO, DETROIT & MIDWEST - Teamed with Dusty in Main and semi-Main positions. Notable opponents include the Stomper, The Curry Brothers, Bobo Brazil & Sonny King, Bill & Dan Miller, Fabulous Kangaroos. Was Bobo in legendary status yet? FLORIDA - Teamed with Dusty in midcard early and worked up to main and semi-main positions. Feud with Jose Lothario and Argentina Apollo, Jack Brisco, Funks, Eddie Graham, Dale Lewis. World Title Shot against Dory. 1971 AUSTRALIA: - Worked main event singles and tags with Dusty Rhodes FLORIDA - Worked main events with Briscoes, Dory, Great Malenko, The Grappler, Mr. Wrestling. Occasional tag with Bobby Duncum. JAPAN - Featured in tags against Baba & Inoki 1972 WEST TEXAS - Early in the year, worked as Brass Knux champ. After losing title, worked main and semi-main. Feuded with Alfred Hayes, Ricky Romero, Harley Race , Pak Song as BK champ. Occasional tag partner with Bobby Duncum. World title matches with Dory. AWA - West Texas Outlaws look stuck in the midcard or in semi-main positions. Working matches with Billy Robinson, Don Muraco, 1973 AWA - More of the same going into 1973. Maybe KHawk can elaborate on what was going on with the Outlaws at this early stage while in AWA. They are clearly a step up as you can see them feuding with Bockwinkel & Stevens which sounds completely awesome. WEST TEXAS - Picks up where he left off. Main eventing and wrestling for the world title occasionally. JAPAN It looks like he is in main event tags against Baba, Jumbo and friends in All Japan. He also has tags with Flair against Kimura and friends in IWE. WEST TEXAS - Picks up where he left off. Main eventing and wrestling for the world title occasionally. QUESTION: Can somebody give me some info on Cyclone Negro? Dude is all over these cards. Who would be a good equivalent for him? ST. LOUIS - Wrestling with Race and Koloff against the Briscoes, Pat O’Connor and Rufus Jones. Has single matches with Bruno and Kiniski. That is a lot of world champions running with Dickie. Overall, Dick was travelling a sick schedule wrestling 3 or 4 territories at once in 1973. He was featured in main event tags or singles in nearly every place he wrestled this year. 1974 ST. LOUIS - Feuding with Bobo Brazil a lot. Had matches with Baba and Dory. WEST TEXAS - Began the year feuding with JJ Dillon. I have no idea where Dillon was on the card at this time. Doesn’t look like he went out of his way much except for a shot in Japan and the St. Louis cards but he was wrestling the big names when they came through West Texas. 1975 FLORIDA AND WEST TEXAS - This looks pretty impressive since Murdoch is headlining both territories simultaneously. He continues to headline in Florida even when he goes to work for Tri-States. This makes sense since he is feuding with Bill Watts in Florida and Watts probably loved him like a brother from day one. TRI-STATES - Looks like he started out in the mid-card to introduce him (unless he worked here before in results we don’t have) and within two months he was beating Bill Watts in Tulsa. Big feuds with Bill Watts and Killer Karl Kox. It also looks like Funk put a bounty on Murdoch’s head. ALL JAPAN - Featured in the end of year tournament. Wrestled against all of the top names and had a bunch of draws. I think kjh mentioned this above. ST. LOUIS - Singles match with Bruno, tags with Race, Bock and Ox Baker. 1976 ST. LOUIS - Another match with Bruno. Teamed with Baba and Jumbo against Funk, O’Connor and Art Thomas. That sounds super fun. TRI-STATES - Murdoch continues to main event against Killer Karl Kox and new arrival Ken Patera. Murdoch is also going back to West Texas for main event shots there as well. This almost feels like the blueprint for the Memphis Flair-Lawler angle in 1982. Terry Funk puts a bounty on Murdoch’s head. Akbar enlists guys to take the bounty and when Funk arrives in the territory, Murdoch wrestles the world champ. ALL JAPAN - Another strong showing in tag matches with Al Hayes and Hoffman as partners. 1977 TRI-STATES & WEST TEXAS - Still main eventing with John Tolos, Stan Hansen, and Bill Watts. When the champ comes into town, Watts is challenging. Kris shows some random West Texas dates including what looks like the start of a feud with Abdullah the Butcher and a series of matches with JJ Dillon. Then, the results go back to Watts and Dick is challenging for the North American title. Dick is pulling double duty. Mid ATLANTIC - In late 1977, looks like Murdoch comes in and is in the mid-card early on. Eventually, he ends up in main or semi-main slots. In the meantime, he is also main eventing in other places like Kansas City, Tri States and of course, West Texas. 1978 TEXAS - Still main eventing West Texas but Kris has a match with David Von Erich in Dallas. Where was David at on the card in 1978? I know it wasn’t like the explosion of the early 80s but was he already in the main event slots because Fritz was his daddy? He also goes back to West Texas and we see him become a regular in Houston ST. LOUIS - Headlining with Brisco, Race and Dick the Bruiser. Sounds pretty impressive. MID ATLANTIC - Early on he is still in the mid-card while still doing main event slots for Watts. Still, he beats Flair in March and it looks like they have a nice little feud. By the spring, Murdoch is in a semi-main slot against Von Raschke and his nemesis Patera. By the summer, he is entrenched in the main event or semi-main slot with Flair, the Baron and Masked Superstar. I am also curious to see what was going on in Kansas City throughout the year because it looks like Dick had a SWEET feud with Bob Sweetan. 1979 ST. LOUIS - This is where it looks like his feud with Dick the Bruiser really takes off. TEXAS - You can tell this is around the time he and Mulligan bought into West Texas because they are all over it feuding with each other. I am pretty sure the territory is on its last legs at this point. He is also doing shots in Dallas with Akbar. ALL JAPAN - Weird. The results say New Japan when it should be All Japan. Anyway, he wrestled Race, Baba and Jumbo throughout the tour. MID SOUTH - Looks like he has some main event slots with Ernie Ladd and also reformed the Rednecks with Dusty Rhodes as well.

I didn't care for him much on the AWA set as authority figure ass kicker. At least Watts looked the part. However, I may revisit the old footage to see what Verne was like in his prime.

I have seen so many great Cena matches that he is a no brainer on my list. Live, he has been second only to Daniel Bryan in the amount of good-great matches I have seen.

Shining Wiz made me take this topic seriously. I am going to rank Warrior ahead of Richards. I enjoy things that Warrior did like the Rude matches and the Hogan Mania match. I love that him and Rude had a posedown and did an impromptu arm wrestling match in World Class. I don''t like anything Davey Richards does.