ohtani's jacket

I'm a big fan of Garvin and will watch any and all Garvin that gets pimped. I might not like all of it, but I'm a Garvin fan through and through. The Tully TV bout remains one of my favourite matches of all time and I love the Jake Roberts feud and the Flair studio bout. The Flair vs. Garvin feud is overrated in terms of the total package (booking + promos + payoff), but they'll always have that studio bout. I was about to say that his career was hurt a bit by him not continuing through the 90s, but I didn't realise that he made his debut in 1962! I thought he was from the same generation as Steamboat, Flair and Co. Wow, I had no idea he was over 40 during the Flair feud.

How do you remember all this stuff??

I'm only really familiar with Scorpio's work from WCW where I pretty much dug everything from his singles work to his tag team w/ Bagwell. Never seen his work on the indies but take everyone's word for it.

I kind of feel the need to say something about everyone who finishes top 100. I like Ikeda best in sub 10 minute shoot style bouts from the early days of BattlARTS. Whenever he'd go longer his matches got a bit too junior-ish for my tastes. I'm thinking specifically of that Otsuka match from '97. Bear in mind I'm not too big on the hybrid aspects of BattlARTS. His singles matches with Ishikawa in '98 and '99 were the high water mark for BattlARTS in my mind and still don't get their due as some of the best bouts of the era. I like his FUTEN stuff but he was physically broken down compared to his early BA stuff. I'm surprised he made it this far. I'm guessing he got some help through Twitter, which is cool. One of those rare guys who got better as he aged. Early on his career he was unquestionably the best mini worker of all-time (at least from a work perspective), and while he was always a strong hand in the regular-sized ranks it wasn't until this decade that he became arguably the best guy in Mexico. Sticking that belt on him for as long as they did and giving him title matches against up and coming midcarders was like manna from heaven for us fans and one of the few gifts from CMLL you've got to be thankful for. I don't think Von Erich was a strong enough worker on his own merits to crack the top 100, but he had plenty of good big match performances so it's grating or anything. He should have been tucked behind a few of the workers who made the 120-101 range but never mind. Massive drop. I was around when the Destroyer was the newest thing since sliced bread and when jdw was already saying how Yohe had been pimping him forever and how guys who had watched his Classics matches years earlier were all ahead of the praise. I was also around when Phil Schneider began questioning whether he was that good. I fucking loved the Destroyer in 2006. I voted him No.3. The biggest problem since then has been no new footage. Out of sight, out of mind. His ranking this time round is probably a better reflection of the amount of footage we have on tape. I love his Parka stuff and some of his L.A. Park work is okay, but he shouldn't have ranked ahead of most of the luchadores whom received votes. i get that he's a cult figure and everything (and that at his best he's legitimately good), but I'd love to see someone run down why he's better than Fuerza Guerrera or Fiera or Emilio or Perro Sr, and so on. A little bit high given the lack of footage. If we had all of the 1980-83 stuff that I read about and wrote about for the Lucha History lessons thread then he'd skyrocket up the list, but at this stage I think his personality is larger than his output. And I kind of wonder how many people have watched and critiqued his post-80s stuff to any real degree. I guess what I'm getting at is that are people looking at the full picture when they vote for him or just the MS-1 and Aguayo matches? I don't really get his charisma or his shtick. He looks like's on something to me. I get why people like his minimalist strike-based offence but he comes across as a bit limited to me like a Japanese version of DDP or Kazuo Yamazaki on methamphetamines. He's had some exciting matches though and is usually good for at least one killer spot. Backlund is a guy I always kind of groan about watching and then end up really enjoying. I think I'm guilty of letting other people's opinions of him create an unfair aversion to him. Slap on the wrist. For a style I profess to dislike, Backlund is one of the very best at it in my eyes. One of the few guys I can happily watch go long in the old-school style. I think this makes me the polar opposite to a lot of people here. I even had the opposite reaction to GOTNW in that I didn't like his shoot style involvement whatsoever or more specifically the shit the shoot style boys pulled on him. One of the all-time great promos, one of the all-time great commentators, but I think the only time I've enjoyed his matches is when he talks over them. But he's Dusty so fuck it.

That Valentine/Backlund match was my No.1 pick on the Smarkschoice Greatest WWE Match poll.

Thanks for posting that list. The Chris Markoff bout from '69 is interesting in that it's a total babyface performance against a cheating foreign heel as opposed to the usual catch-as-catch-can/strong style mix. And y'know what, Inoki's pretty good at it. It's not the first thing you think of when you think of Inoki, but he sells his ass off, bleeds a bucket and makes one hell of a comeback. It helps if you've seen him legitimately shoot on guys with his stomp, but it's an awesome comeback by any measure. He gets absolutely mobbed at the end and has another of those really triumphant yusho celebrations w/ a bandaged head and crimson mask. Markoff was really freaking good in his role. If you like cheating brawling heels then you'd do far worse than to watch some Chris Markoff. My list of good Inoki matches sure is growing.

Virus having more singles matches this decade is the reason he cracked the list.

If I meant that, I would have said that. My point is that Benoit gets his unique treatment because he ended human lives, yet he's far from the only wrestler to have accomplished that tragedy. That's not the way you worded it. I don't see what in-ring deaths like Plum Mariko have to do with Benoit. They're not the same thing.

You're struttin' into town like you're slingin' a gun Just a small town dude with a big city attitude Honey are ya lookin' for some trouble tonight Well all right

The '76 Inoki/Andre is another good one. It's memorable for the Andre blade job if nothing else. I'm interested in seeing whether Marty agrees that the first one you see is the best or whether I just get bored easily.

Are you honestly trying to say that if a wrestler dies in the ring then the other people involved are murderers and scum? Or if someone kills themselves they're scum?

Uh oh, what did I start? I was really just using Undertaker's quote from Royal Rumble '94 to talk about workers who've dropped off the list not Undertaker himself.

I watched two from '77 and one from '79. I'm watching the one from '76 now.

My image of Parv! You know, a funny thing happened to me on a wrestling forum the other day.

Be not proud of what you have done, PWO.

What's with this myth that Maeda wasn't very good at shoot style? I wonder how many of the cool picks in the top 100 will drop straight away. I'm surprised that Backlund did so well as it seemed the height of his critical reappraisal was long gone and actually imagined he'd do better if the poll had been held five years ago.

The only I liked was from '78. I haven't seen the one from '76 yet.

That is what I plan on calling the list when Flair is named number 1. If Flair is No.1 you can blame the Cult of the Old.

Fair warning this is a shit post, but reading this it occurred to me that I could easily see myself agreeing with the wrestling equivalent of a comment like this, but as a comment about music or film or what have you, seems unfair and dismissive. It feels like a lot of people here and elsewhere (including myself) experience wrestling in a way that is a lot more tied to consensus relative to other art forms. I care way more about music than I do about wrestling, and an equivalent 'Greatest Musicians Ever' based heavily on technical proficiency not only sounds horrific but also doesn't come close to touching on why music is great, or how we relate to it. Why I'm on board with that type of thing in wrestling terms doesn't make any sense to me, and I wonder if the fundamental difference is the form itself or the culture of criticism around it. This was interesting. I enjoy taking part in album polls, but I don't think I'd ever consider taking part in a Greatest Musician Ever poll. I might be able to casually give you my top 5 in a certain style ala High Fidelity, but I'm more interested in the output than I am comparing one musician to another. Of course there are musicians I like and musicians I don't, and I suppose there are musicians that I think are better or worse than other. But a big difference is that I don't belong to a music site that is the equivalent of PWO and don't get into debates about musicians with other people. If I like a musician I check out more of their music or music with a similar sound and if I don't like someone's music I don't listen to their stuff again. It's completely different from the way I consume pro-wrestling. Wrestling is kind of the opposite. I'm less interested in ranking the output than I am the workers. I don't mind taking part in projects where people rank matches from a promotion or an era or genre, but I'm not really interested in a Greatest Match Ever list. In a way I think it's easier to rank wrestlers than musicians because they're all basically doing the same thing. They may work in different styles or play different roles but the basic skill set is the same. There are far fewer wrestlers than there are musicians and there is far less variety. And unlike music where if I don't like a band I won't listen to them again, it's difficult to completely avoid workers whom you don't like. But I think the main reason is that I don't belong to any music forums.

Aww no, little Stevie Grey! You may now proceed with your list of the Top 100 Most Overrated Wrestlers of All-Time ;p

I must have lucked Into the one good Andre/Inoki match, or maybe it's a case of diminishing returns, because the rest of them kind of suck.

Yeah, when are those next ten names dropping.

I actually like the classics. Whenever I get into something new I hit up the classics first because who doesn't want to experience the best of something? But for me the classics are a springboard for immersing myself in a style and from there I find my own way. I don't think Parv is all that different. He embraces some of the classics and tosses others aside. He just has an incredibly strong attachment to the workers and matches he thinks are best.

I think you're ignoring how those consensus picks came to be. Parties already touched on films that were panned at first; think about the Cahiers du Cinema and how it completely revolutionised film criticism with auteur theory. Their ideas were completely radical at the time but enough people believed in them and a new consensus was formed. All it really takes is for one person to come up with an idea and if enough people believe in it then the consensus will change. We've seen clear examples of that during the present reveal. We've also seen examples of new ideas that haven't gained quite enough momentum to bring about change. And there's always trends to consider. Styles that fall out of favour. Older thinking that's rejected. We're not just looking for the Shakespeare of wrestling (i.e. the No 1 pick) we're looking to fill in the top 10, the top 20, the top 30 and beyond. The wider you spread that net the more diversity you're going to find. Once you get outside the consensus picks that's where the action is really happening. If someone comes along and says Magnum is better than Kobashi then first of all that's an interesting idea and much better than reading the same tired old bullshit about Kobashi, but morever it'll probably lead to Magnum gaining traction rather leapfrogging over Kobashi. It would gain my attention anyway, but Kobashi would still receive the same amount of boring votes. To make a film analogy, Kobashi is a boring ass pick like John Ford. It's just a safe, boring pick. Did I mention the word boring anymore? The Magnum idea, now that's like thinking Nicholas Ray is a master. Now you're talking. If one or two like-minded people think it's a cool idea then it's not going to go anywhere, but if it takes off a bit then it will really stir the pot. Then John Ford fans will come along with their lists of **** and above John Ford films and try to shove it down our throats as evidence, but we know what we like and it's Nick Ray. The undervalued, the underrated, the under-appreciated, the overlooked. Magnum may be a far fetched example, but if it wasn't for that sort of mentality we'd still be arguing about all sorts of outdated ideas. To me the stance you're taking doesn't factor in progress or change. I appreciate that you have this mentality because you open up worlds for the rest of us. Phil Schneider is the same way, always looking for the next thing to be excited about. I'm too conservative to let go of my Ford/Kobashi entirely, but amen to the explorers. Kobashi was the guy Parv mentioned. It could have been any of the top picks really. I like Kobashi though I think Parv goes overboard in his praise for him.

It has also been put in question as it as happening by the Positif review, and it's pretty much recognized now that they were *wrong* on several issues. Plus the auteur theory has done its share of damage to the mentality of producers/filmmakers too. Andre Bazin also critiqued it at the time and he was their mentor as you know. One of his criticisms was that a true auteurist would automatically find a second-rate film by an auteur to be superior to a first-rate film by a non-auteur, which he thought to be nonsense. I think that was in retaliation to Eric Rhomer "demolishing" John Houston, a director whom Bazin admired. To tie this back to the GWE, since many of us apply an auteurist approach to wrestling, I wonder how many of us are guilty of Bazin's criticism. Is that second-rate Dibiase match truly better than a first-rate Shawn Michaels match?