ohtani's jacket

He was washed up pretty fast. He seemed to age quicker than any worker I can remember. There's some decent old man Fiera stuff where he's not really that old, he just looks it. Wouldn't consider him myself. Emilio Charles Jr is my cut off for luchadores I've decided, and Emilio > Fiera.

I don't mind if people use those standards so long as they're consistent with them. By which I mean you don't just apply to them to Flair but every nominee. Personally, I think it's a case by case matter -- it works in some wrestler's favour and other times it doesn't matter -- but I would find it kind of odd if someone watched a dozen Kandori matches from her prime and voted her, but held Flair to these standards. I also don't see how a universal standard can be applied when everyone ages differently and we're not always privy to what the wrestler can and cannot do physically. And maybe people are just flat out overrating older Andre and everyone else.

Kendo Nagasaki Pros: * One of the biggest stars in British wrestling history to the point where he's still featured on television and in print today * Enduring gimmick and a decent worker * Was a big draw in the 70s and 80s and continued to draw even after wrestling lost television * Like Haystacks, traveled more extensively than some of the other names on the ballot * Several legendary feuds such as Count Bartelli in the mid 60s and Big Daddy in the mid 70s * His unmasking on New Year's Eve 1977 was one of the most highly anticipated and most memorable moments of wrestling's run on ITV Cons: * Failed move to the indies in the mid 70s led to his first retirement and when he returned to Joint and television was never the same again * Failed face turn after unmasking * Involved in plenty of silliness in the waning days of wrestling on ITV (disco ladder match with Cliver Myers, hypnotizing Regal and Brookside) * Said to have become somewhat aimless after the death of his manager George E. Gillette * No dead set classic match on tape * At least a dozen or more better heavyweights wrestling in the country at any point in his career

The last Toyota match I watched I really enjoyed (Toyota/Yamada from '89.) It seems redundant to point out all her flaws. For me she's no worse a candidate than Liger or Kobashi or Takada or Hase.

Completely hinges on how well her ARSION work holds up. I'll hand the floor over to Loss.

Jackie wasn't a bad worker, which she got to show more of after Maki retired, and I like the way she fits into the lineage of AJW ace's, but you'd have to say that both Mariko Akagi and Jaguar Yokota outshone her as pure workers from the same era and showed what Joshi was capable of in an era when it wasn't supposed to be very good. You could add Yumi Ikeshita to that list too.

Now that I've kind of come around on Rocco, Saint stands as the most overrated British worker of all-time. How he ever got a rep of being better than his contemporaries like Grey, Breaks and Rocco is beyond me. He does have some outstanding matches, though, including just about the best WoS tag I've seen, but it's mixed with a lot of disappointing stuff. I don't just say this because he's a gateway guy and I want to be all Pitchfork about it. Watch Saint vs. lesser names and compare it with Grey against everybody.

Previously one of my all-time favourites and perhaps my pick for the best actor in all of wrestling. Haven't thought about her for a long time. Even when I was a fan, you had to gloss over the fact that she botched a lot of moves. That's easy to do if you buy into her character, but I'm not all that keen on revisiting her unless it's new stuff I haven't seen. The JWP promotion really was wonderful though. It was such a tiny indy but the girls were like a close knit family. I have fond memories of the promotion and watching the TV.

At the peak of Black Terry Jr footage, I thought he was a top ten luchador all-time on tape. He's been a bit out of sight out of mind of late, but what the great brawlers in lucha history and one of the great character workers. It gets to the point where it sounds like a broken record, but I'd desperately like to have footage of him from his younger days. I can't imagine he was anything less than sensational from the mid 80s through to the early 90s.

Should have been the next guy in the Lizmark/Solar/Atlantis mold, but wasn't. His '88-90 is a great run (maybe the best run of the guys CMLL tried to push as new stars), but he fell off a cliff after that.

His 90s stuff needs to be reevaluated as there was at least one trios I watched recently where I thought he gave a great performance. I really want to see the Casas hair match from '94. I doubt he has enough matches on tape to crack this list unless you go for sheer ability was a performer and then he belongs in the the conversation.

I've loved Franz van Buyten ever since the day you introduced me to him. Voting him onto a list like this may be a bridge too far for him, but I'd rather watch him than a million other guys who've been nominated. Footage is the big issue as you know how infuriating the German footage is.

Unfortunately, I think there's only seven Alan Sarjeant matches on tape. The definitive mindblowing Brit technician sums him up perfectly. He's the Volk Han of British wrestling in other words.

One of the greatest heels in European wrestling history. The recent catch stuff was a revelation. Kind of a hard sell to folks around here, but if you're watching that Chicago archives stuff I don't see why you wouldn't check out Lasartesse.

Yeah, it's Carl.

There's five matches available from the 70s. The rest of his stuff is from Reslo and the 80s. Flat out one of the best workers ever in my opinion, and while I dislike this kind of terminology, he was one of the best workers in the world in the early 80s. His series with Haward was light years ahead of what anybody else was doing in the early 80s. It's as close to shoot style in a 1980 British ring as you will see from any other match-up.

Billy Joyce Pros: * Considered to be one of the greatest heavyweights of the post war era and one of the finest technicians of his era * Often referred to as the best wrestler to come out of Wigan's Snake Pit * One of the last British workers to be considered a "ripper," a shooter who could genuinely hurt people * Six time British Heavyweight Champion from 1958 to 1966 * One time European Heavyweight Champion in 1961 * Dropped both titles to Billy Robinson in '67 and '65 respectively to put him over * Took over most of the training duties at the Snake Pit in the 60s and 70s with Ernie Riley, son of Bill Riley * Had a hand in training Billy Robinson and Karl Gotch, as well as Alan Woods, John Naylor, and Dynamite Kid briefly. Cons: * No footage whatsoever * Often said to be uncharismatic and overshadowed by more flamboyant wrestlers * No clear evidence that he was a draw * Disliked traveling thus didn't raise his profile overseas

There is also the Devil Masami match from the original JWP, which was one of the better Joshi matches of the 80s. But I'm totally against cherry picking her best stuff to get her onto the list. If people are going to vote for her there should be a serious effort made to see whether her JWP and LLPW stuff holds up, and a proper appraisal of her as she got older, just like there is with so many other candidates.

I don't know if all of these will be on YouTube. Some of them will be, but mostly with their air dates not the dates I've used. Steve Grey vs. John Naylor (4/10/75) Steve Grey vs. Ken Joyce (7/31/75) Clive Myers vs. Steve Grey (10/8/75) Clive Myers vs. Steve Grey (11/20/75) Zoltan Boscik vs. Steve Grey (aired 5/8/76) Steve Grey vs. Mick McManus (5/21/77) [Cup Final Day] Clive Myers vs. Steve Grey (12/6/77) Bobby Barnes vs. Steve Grey (7/26/78) Steve Grey vs. Mark Rocco (10/11/78) Johnny Saint vs Steve Grey (1/28/80) Johnny Saint vs. Steve Grey (2/11/81) Steve Grey vs. Jim Breaks (5/12/81) Jon Cortez vs. Steve Grey (7/27/81) Steve Grey vs. Jackie Turpin (8/11/82) Jim Breaks vs. Steve Grey (4/7/83) Steve Grey vs. Steve Speed (1/25/84) Steve Grey vs. Clive Myers (3/5/84) Steve Grey vs. Keith Haward (2/5/85) Steve Grey vs. Clive Myers (3/20/85)

The first ever Steve Grey match I saw was the Clive Myers match that Bix uploaded many years ago. At the time it was one of the coolest things I had ever seen and with the help of Real Man's Man (God bless you, wherever you may be), I was able to eventually see more WoS along with the torrents that made their way onto YouTube. Then I hooked up with my man in Birmingham and watched practically every Steve Grey match ever. I'm now going to gush so much about Steve Grey he'll blush if he reads this... Steve Grey is for my money the greatest babyface in the history of wrestling. There's never been a more likeable face to me. He comes across as the nicest guy ever. When Walton gives that antidote about Grey teaching carpentry to pensioners and disabled people in his free time, how could you not take him home to meet your mother? And he's a world class wrestler to boot. Nobody has a deeper catalog of good WoS bouts than Steve Grey. I could list off a bunch of names and I guarantee one of their best bouts was against Grey if not their very best. And that's an ever expanding list with workers you've never heard of. He has been single-handedly responsible for changing my opinion of several different wrestlers from a negative to a positive, had classics in the 70s and 80s, and was one of the best guys even when Joint was going down the toilet. I think he's a serious candidate for the best British worker ever and will be in my top 20.

Yeah, but if he's underwhelming to start with Matt might never get to the fun stuff.

Jumbo & Tenryu and Choshu & Yatsu had fifty million tag matches in a row. You'll confuse the poor boy. I'm telling you Matt, grumpy Jumbo is the Jumbo you will enjoy. Jumbo vs. Misawa is a narrative you'll be able to sink your teeth into. Plus you're all primed up watching so many trios of late.

I never really got the less than a hundred matches thing with Volk. There are plenty of worker who will be voted for that have less than a 100 matches on tape, and plenty of people will vote for people who they've seen less than a 100 matches from. Why should Volk be held to a higher standard because he only worked one match per month? (Which in the end didn't prevent him from breaking down physically.) Does that means US wrestlers should be voted higher than Japanese wrestlers because they have more difficult schedules? Who's to say working once a month isn't more challenging? Wrestling the top guys in each territory vs. a match against Dick Vrij. I'm not seeing an advantage there.

Horst Hoffman Pros: * Big star in Germany during the 60s and early 70s * Successful amateur * Considered a superb wrestler * European Heavyweight Champion from 1971 to 1974 * Won the IBV German Championship heavyweight tournament 10 times between 1960 and 1975 and once as a middleweight in 1958 * Won the IBV European Championship heavyweight tournament 9 times between 1962 and 1975 * Won the Dortmund tournament three times from '66-68 * Won Munich 6 times between 1966 and 1976 * Won upwards of 90 German tournaments in total * Memorable heel run in the AWA teaming with Baron Von Raschke * Had 4 tours of All Japan and 3 tours for IWE Cons: * Extremely limited footage * German tournament victories were all promoted by the same promoter Gustl Kaiser * General lack of understanding of German wrestling history and the significance of each tournament * Not a big star internationally * Often noted for a lack of charisma

All I know is I could spend all day watching Ernie Ladd promos.